JFK Assassination Debate on Infowars

[Benjamin Cole]

8 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Yes it is embarrassing. But just because these ‘liberals’ avoid the subject doesn’t mean we should be uncritically commending the right wing conspiracy mongers for engaging in JFK debates. The more I see this the more worried I am that it is doing us a disservice. If pressure from this fringe is bought to bear on Biden to release the remaining documents it will backfire. It does, inevitably, cast serious JFK researchers as conspiracy mongers rather than truth tellers. No good. For the sake of history we should stay true to the facts. We have few actual friends in the media, but I prefer that to strange bedfellows. I’m not interested in giving Alex Jones a listen, because I saw personally the effect of his Sandy Hook garbage (btw which as far as I can tell was initiated by James Fetzer) on a friend of mine. He still hasn’t recovered. Fake conspiracy theories hurt our cause, because ours is not fake. 
What I find ironic in the taking up of this mantle by right wing kooks is that the facts of the JFK case point us directly at the fringe right of 1963. They can say what they want and use their bully pulpits, but they don’t really want this truth to come out. Blaming the CIA, or the FBI as institutions misses the point, but it’s very useful for Tucker Carlson or Alex Jones politically. 

Paul--

You raise a lot of good points. I dearly wish that the NYT and WaPo, still with considerable resources and reputation, would seize the mantle on earnest JFKA research. 

But Jeff Morley actually had to quit the WaPo to pursue the JFKA, many years ago. In other words, the WaPo could not even say to Morley, "OK work on the JFKA part-time, and be a reporter on breaking news when needed," or something to that effect. 

The WaPo, with hundreds of reporters, refused to commit even one reporter, part-time, to the JFKA. That, in a nutshell, is where we are.

I may disagree with Tucker Carlson on some issues, though I agree with him on international trade, and border control, and US interventionism. For example, I reluctantly support US involvement in Ukraine, which Carlson dismisses. 

A non-globalist in DC, Carlson, will be demonized relentlessly...why? 

JFK was the first post-war non-interventionist, btw. 

 

[Ron Bulman]

My goodness Lori what have you stirred up here.  I go away for a couple of days and come back to this.  AJ is an embarrassment to me as a Texan like yourself.  I experienced his bullhorn leading a chanting line through Dealy Plaza a week before the 50th.  He was rallying his troops.  I'd heard his name, little else.  Sandy Hook was a tragedy.  Hurting people who have lost a child (I know about that) for profit is despicable.  In my own prejudiced opinion, he should have lost his bullhorn, infowars over it, in addition to the millions of dollars.  He's a charlatan.  How anyone can watch him more than five minutes is beyond me, and five minutes may be stretching it.  He and the chump are two peas in a pod.  

[Gerry Down]

Alex Jones doesn't even appear in that debate guys.

The debate was poor. Both participants didn't seem to know their stuff at all. But at least they are debating. There does not seem to be any appetite among any of the well known researchers on here to debate on video. 

We need a two or three hour debate between some of the big guns on here. Tom Gram vs Bill Brown or Michael Griffith vs Steve Roe etc would make a good debate.

[Anthony Thorne]

Referring to the last post, previous page. Matt - yeah, Jon mentioned the JFK film at one point. (I asked him, Jon, will Operation 40 appear in the film? His answer, "Duh, what do you think, dude?"). Also I did a loooong thread at Deep Politics Forum about Jon and the Pat Sullivan stuff. Jon eventually linked to it on Facebook, and said, if you want to know what's been up, read this.

There is no book on 9/11 right now that successfully links all the dots, beyond perhaps Kevin Ryan's ANOTHER 19, which spends a good while digging into those various topics you mentioned, and probably Peter Dale Scott's trilogy of recent deep politics volumes. Though as Jim DiEugenio pointed out on this forum, you can read Scott's JFK volumes, and by the end of them, still have no idea who he thought killed JFK.

Side note. I had already been interested in JFK for a while. The ripple of public interest in political conspiracies that started (for obvious reasons) just after the turn of the millennium led me to re-rread and dig back through a lot of books and articles and sites, generally trying to probe more deeply and get some answers. Jon was obviously doing the same for a while, then backed off. I've told him a few times I do not blame him, but still regret films two, three and four, and the JFK one, didn't materialise.

But the funny thing was, the research I did eventually came in handy for COUP IN DALLAS, just for one particular chapter. Some of the work they did for that book, doesn't appear in the final book, and some of the writing I did for my concluding essay, also doesn't appear in the book. Some of it extends what Kevin Ryan dug up. Ryan closely missed a real nest of interest by not moving his gaze and chronology back a further 5 years. from the early 90's into the late 80's, where the same names were all cooling their heels at the end of the Reagan admin. It's not related to Iran Contra, but to some other stuff, missed by pretty much everyone, that doesn't appear in any of the books you've likely already read. CIA Crest was our friend and turned up nearly a hundred documents of interest. I mentioned it to Jon, he's interested in reading it, I still owe him an email sending him the particulars. 

Many of the government advisors that were floating around, speaking to hawks in the military and industry, telling them to invest in weapons, tended to stay in service for decades. CIA Crest has a funny run of material with the CIA recruiting a new batch of scientists (including Sidney Drell) in November 1963, just a couple of weeks before Kennedy's murder. I followed numerous names from 1963 onwards, and numerous names from 2001 backwards, and there were a ton of unexpected connections that turn up only when you do some dedicated digging. It will all come out at some point.

The Pat Sullivan stuff was always funny. No matter where you looked, there was a rabbit hole that would plunge you into the abyss, no matter what rock you lifted up. 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Anthony Thorne

[Lori Spencer]

Oh goodness, what have I done? 
 

Sorry if I started a fire 🔥.
 

Posting the Infowars debate here was not an endorsement of Alex Jones. Just a heads up about a debate that was watched by a large audience, wanting feedback from the community. 
 

 

[Paul Cummings]

2 hours ago, Lori Spencer said:

Oh goodness, what have I done? 
 

Sorry if I started a fire 🔥.
 

Posting the Infowars debate here was not an endorsement of Alex Jones. Just a heads up about a debate that was watched by a large audience, wanting feedback from the community. 
 

 

Large audience?

[Matthew Koch]

3 hours ago, Lori Spencer said:

Oh goodness, what have I done? 
 

Sorry if I started a fire 🔥.
 

Posting the Infowars debate here was not an endorsement of Alex Jones. Just a heads up about a debate that was watched by a large audience, wanting feedback from the community. 
 

 

You did the right thing Lori, you posted a JFK debate that featured someone who is friends with a forum member Vince Palamara and you rooted for the person debating a lone gunman person. Unfortunately as we have seen in the threads about Thomas Massie's committee partisan leftists can't separate their hatred for anything on the right.

I feel the same way as Gerry it was a pretty newbie debate but at least they are debating.. 

[Paul Brancato]

1 hour ago, Matthew Koch said:

You did the right thing Lori, you posted a JFK debate that featured someone who is friends with a forum member Vince Palamara and you rooted for the person debating a lone gunman person. Unfortunately as we have seen in the threads about Thomas Massie's committee partisan leftists can't separate their hatred for anything on the right.

I feel the same way as Gerry it was a pretty newbie debate but at least they are debating.. 

I agree - we got off on Alex Jones for obvious reasons. I do rail against partisanship, even while acknowledging that I am ‘left’. I hate the labels though. I don’t listen or watch any pundits anymore. I got rid of my tv service a few years ago. I used to watch MSNBC and CNN, never FOX. But I got really tired of the so called liberal news outlets. I think largely unseen forces seek to divide us, and most people on all sides fall for it. Talking heads ain’t news in my opinion. 
having said all that, I remain quite curious how all the fake conspiracies are viewed by posters here. I’m not even sure we could all agree on a few of them. That’s how deep this goes. Sandy Hook was a litmus test of sorts for me. I watched videos ‘proving’ that terrorist incidents in France were staged events. I dug down into those stories, and found James Fetzer, a disinformation agent of some sort. I also dug down on Antifa and concluded it wasn’t ‘anarchist’, that it’s organization is hidden. I think it was at first legitimate protest against globalism, but was copycatted, infiltrated, whatever one wishes to call it, and became both a covert operation and a lighting rod for anti-leftist rhetoric. This was all too similar to the Red Brigades in Italy being blamed for terrorist bombings in the 1970’s that were actually instigated by fascist infiltration. Unlike here in the US, the Italians, with stronger left wing roots, unearthed this story over 30 years through their courts. 
i also investigated the UFO phenomenon and found real unexplained events, but full of fake conspiracy theories, sensationalism, propaganda. 
i know in my gut that forces went after the ‘left’ in the 1960’s, and continue to do so. I found it laughable that Michael G mentioned Noam Chomsky, who I’ve literally never seen on any ‘liberal’ media. And in any case I don’t look up to him at all. The anger on the ‘right’ these days, focusing on law enforcement etc, is something the ‘left’ should have done a long time ago, because it is only recently that the ‘right’ has become a target. It was always the ‘left’ that was infiltrated and marginalized. But it’s just a bit understandable for folks like me, since the number of violent incidents perpetrated by leftists is a drop in the bucket compared to the right. The Communists never did anything like that here. And look at Germany in the early 1930’s. Same thing. 
We can’t have honest debate on the function of government. The new Congressional committee uses the word ‘conservative’ to define the target of law enforcement. That seems ridiculous to me.

[Matthew Koch]

28 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

I agree - we got off on Alex Jones for obvious reasons. I do rail against partisanship, even while acknowledging that I am ‘left’. I hate the labels though. I don’t listen or watch any pundits anymore. I got rid of my tv service a few years ago. I used to watch MSNBC and CNN, never FOX. But I got really tired of the so called liberal news outlets. I think largely unseen forces seek to divide us, and most people on all sides fall for it. Talking heads ain’t news in my opinion. 
having said all that, I remain quite curious how all the fake conspiracies are viewed by posters here. I’m not even sure we could all agree on a few of them. That’s how deep this goes. Sandy Hook was a litmus test of sorts for me. I watched videos ‘proving’ that terrorist incidents in France were staged events. I dug down into those stories, and found James Fetzer, a disinformation agent of some sort. I also dug down on Antifa and concluded it wasn’t ‘anarchist’, that it’s organization is hidden. I think it was at first legitimate protest against globalism, but was copycatted, infiltrated, whatever one wishes to call it, and became both a covert operation and a lighting rod for anti-leftist rhetoric. This was all too similar to the Red Brigades in Italy being blamed for terrorist bombings in the 1970’s that were actually instigated by fascist infiltration. Unlike here in the US, the Italians, with stronger left wing roots, unearthed this story over 30 years through their courts. 
i also investigated the UFO phenomenon and found real unexplained events, but full of fake conspiracy theories, sensationalism, propaganda. 
i know in my gut that forces went after the ‘left’ in the 1960’s, and continue to do so. I found it laughable that Michael G mentioned Noam Chomsky, who I’ve literally never seen on any ‘liberal’ media. And in any case I don’t look up to him at all. The anger on the ‘right’ these days, focusing on law enforcement etc, is something the ‘left’ should have done a long time ago, because it is only recently that the ‘right’ has become a target. It was always the ‘left’ that was infiltrated and marginalized. But it’s just a bit understandable for folks like me, since the number of violent incidents perpetrated by leftists is a drop in the bucket compared to the right. The Communists never did anything like that here. And look at Germany in the early 1930’s. Same thing. 
We can’t have honest debate on the function of government. The new Congressional committee uses the word ‘conservative’ to define the target of law enforcement. That seems ridiculous to me.

Paul what is mildly funny is that I hate Alex Jones from my days of working with the Core of Corruption film, Jonathan shared clips with Jason Bermas and Alex and they basically stole the clips and put them in Fabled Enemies and New World Order and didn't credit Jonathan or the project because they claimed that they told us about the Vanderbilt archives (where the clips came from). I think Alex is a Fed on some level and I've never trusted him after hearing his Y2K broadcast. But what is disappointing is that people can't separate their preconceived suppositions to actually honestly watch the video and see the debate and understand how both sides could have had a better debate. The 60th Anniversary is coming up and we should try to not squander it like the JFKA community did for the 50th.. 

I also have a couple of short videos on an old flip phone from the 50th' anniversary were Alex showed up with his open carrying info warriors and spent acouple of hours bullhorning the grassy knoll; "JFK was killed.. by an inside job!" I also witnessed the same people getting involved in an altercation later in the day. I watched it from a cafe, I went in to get a cup of coffee and a Texas chili to warm up because it was freezing cold (It was wild seeing them bait the cops and then pull out cameras and pretend like their freedom of speech was being infringed by the cops.. But I honestly didn't care since the cops had quarantined Dealey Plaza off for the city's BS anti conspiracy event.) On the way to the event I even ran into James Fetzer at DIA, he was going to a SF conference and I was going to Dallas. He's part of the 911 scholars for Truth that the whole Hologram planes started with Morgan Reynolds, he went rogue on the air and said no planes hit the buildings. The 911 scholars disbanded after that incident and Morgan Reynolds would then go work with Judy Wood. Fetzer then became opposition to them. So, you're not wrong the whole Fetzer thing glows.. 

Fake conspiracies seem to be used by political partisans here to project and ad hom their political enemies. Basically you believe this because you are associated with x and thus your opinion is invalid. I see that as being weak minded and have distain for those kind of tactics. That kind of partisanship is starting to be a problem to the point that there are alot of people here still parroting that RussiaGate is real or that the Fedsurrection at the Capital was a coup de tat and Liz Cheney is a patriot, instead of looking for what the real story is.  I have never met anyone who believed in QAnon, but I have met alot of BlueAnon people on the left that can tell me everything these people believe about Trump. QAnon seems to be a modern day rerun of the Soviet Operation Trust. We have Shumer telling the media that the intelligence agencies have six ways to Sunday to come after you. That's what we see is something in the government went after Trump and his populist movement and the left got manipulated into being a part of that. Now not everyone, people like Oliver Stone and Jimmy Dore knew better but most of the left fell for Hillary Clinton/Operation Mockingbird trap of Putin messing with the elections when it was Wiki Leaks and very likely Seth Rich that actually changed the course. I thought Trump and Hillary were equally bad, but that has not proven to be the case. 

Ever since I backpacked Cuba, I've seen that communism doesn't work and breeds extreme corruption. I used to be more sympathetic to communism back when I had more leftist opinions. Anarchism is more of a lifestyle and you might find a collective of anarchists but it doesn't work in group and those groups are like in 1984 and are usually propped up by the "O'brien's" and the government. The government runs the opposition and when they don't it gets shut down.  I used to have ANTIFA beliefs 20 years ago. IMO Political extremism on both sides is a false dichotomy that is used by the government to get people to do it's bidding for it. As far as the left goes what I think we are seeing is the left is becoming the establishment and that populism we used to see on the left has shifted to the center right. Because the Overton window has shifted left, this is why we see the left joining the far right Neo Cons in opposition to Trump.

 

 

 

[James DiEugenio]

8 hours ago, Lori Spencer said:

Oh goodness, what have I done? 
 

Sorry if I started a fire 🔥.
 

Posting the Infowars debate here was not an endorsement of Alex Jones. Just a heads up about a debate that was watched by a large audience, wanting feedback from the community. 
 

 

This is what I was trying to point out.  What we should be looking at in this is the techniques and tactics used by the other side, in this instance by Austen.  And that is what I tried to do.  Look, you can line up a laser to do anything you wish it to do, its the same old GIGO.  But the death certificate and the face sheet put the back wound at the wrong place to make it through the throat, plus the back wound  is bigger than the throat wound.  Plus Perry's comments on the first day.  We have to be able to counter  this effectively.

And do not underestimate how many viewers Infowars has.  The Libertarian movement is not something that can be dismissed out of hand.  And that is who Jones largely appeals to.

[James DiEugenio]

Let me add a personal story about the whole laser demonstration movement.

Many years ago, I was called up by a TV producer who was doing a JFK special for CNN.  He wanted to talk to me about some matters dealing with the  case.  So I met with him and he told me his capstone would be a laser demonstration, showing the SIngle Bullet Fantasy was false. He was going to be very accurate about the positioning in the car, and the locations of the wounds.  He had photos, and Groden would be there to do the positioning. He was really proud of what this would be.

Except it did not happen. On the day it was to be filmed, out of the blue, Dr. VIncent Di Maio showed up in Dealey Plaza. And he changed it all. The producer decided not to go through with it since he and Groden got into a shouting match with the good doctor.  Who was demonstrably wrong.

I later talked to the producer.  He told me that after he walked off, one of the executives called him up to his office.  He started in on a harangue against Groden as a conspiracy theorist. And therefore he could not be trusted.  When the producer tried to show how everything he was doing was accurate, the guy  got up,  started pounding his fist into his hand, and shouting as he was walking back and forth in front of him. As his voice got louder, he started pounding his fist harder.  Except he was so absorbed, he forgot he had a ring on his fist and he was pounding so hard his hand started bleeding.  

 

This is what the JFK case does to the major media.  And if anyone ever tells you that the higher circles do not work together ask them how DiMaio, who was not a consultant on the film,  magically showed up on the set that day.

Edited January 11, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Pamela Brown]

5 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Let me add a personal story about the whole laser demonstration movement.

Many years ago, I was called up by a TV producer who was doing a JFK special for CNN.  He wanted to talk to me about some matters dealing with the  case.  So I met with him and he told me his capstone would be a laser demonstration, showing the SIngle Bullet Fantasy was false. He was going to be very accurate about the positioning in the car, and the locations of the wounds.  He had photos, and Groden would be there to do the positioning. He was really proud of what this would be.

Except it did not happen. On the day it was to be filmed, out of the blue, Dr. VIncent Di Maio showed up in Dealey Plaza. And he changed it all. The producer decided not to go through with it since he and Groden got into a shouting match with the good doctor.  Who was demonstrably wrong.

I later talked to the producer.  He told me that after he walked off, one of the executives called him up to his office.  He started in on a harangue against Groden as a conspiracy theorist. And therefore he could not be trusted.  When the producer tried to show how everything he was doing was accurate, the guy  got up,  started pounding his fist into his hand, and shouting as he was walking back and forth in front of him. As his voice got louder, he started pounding his fist harder.  Except he was so absorbed, he forgot he had a ring on his fist and he was pounding so hard his hand started bleeding.  

 

This is what the JFK case does to the major media.  And if anyone ever tells you that the higher circles do not work together ask them how DiMaio, who was not a consultant on the film,  magically showed up on the set that day.

Fascinating...

Ironically, when I was working with the Discovery Channel on ITTC, the producer talked to me about their earlier show "Beyond the Magic Bullet"..and he acknowledged that they had come up short...

 

[James DiEugenio]

Thanks.

But that title, Beyond the Magic Bullet?

How do you go beyond something that is a myth.

[Benjamin Cole]

5 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Let me add a personal story about the whole laser demonstration movement.

Many years ago, I was called up by a TV producer who was doing a JFK special for CNN.  He wanted to talk to me about some matters dealing with the  case.  So I met with him and he told me his capstone would be a laser demonstration, showing the SIngle Bullet Fantasy was false. He was going to be very accurate about the positioning in the car, and the locations of the wounds.  He had photos, and Groden would be there to do the positioning. He was really proud of what this would be.

Except it did not happen. On the day it was to be filmed, out of the blue, Dr. VIncent Di Maio showed up in Dealey Plaza. And he changed it all. The producer decided not to go through with it since he and Groden got into a shouting match with the good doctor.  Who was demonstrably wrong.

I later talked to the producer.  He told me that after he walked off, one of the executives called him up to his office.  He started in on a harangue against Groden as a conspiracy theorist. And therefore he could not be trusted.  When the producer tried to show how everything he was doing was accurate, the guy  got up,  started pounding his fist into his hand, and shouting as he was walking back and forth in front of him. As his voice got louder, he started pounding his fist harder.  Except he was so absorbed, he forgot he had a ring on his fist and he was pounding so hard his hand started bleeding.  

 

This is what the JFK case does to the major media.  And if anyone ever tells you that the higher circles do not work together ask them how DiMaio, who was not a consultant on the film,  magically showed up on the set that day.

JD--Even if we mildly disagree on a few issues, I am 100% behind you on this one. 

Remember this: Jeff Morley was working at the WaPo, and wanted the JFKA to be part of his beat. Not full-time, but an issue he would follow and develop. The WaPo has hundreds of reporters and is the national newspaper in DC.

Morley was told no. The WaPo would not allow even one reporter, even part-time, to follow the JFKA. 

And there it has stood ever since. 

The JFKA is not about liberal-conservative, red v. blue. It is about government suppression and media complicity and Operation Mockingbird. 

If Tucker Carlson forthrightly tackles the JFKA, then I say "great." It is the first crack in the wall. 

People should be angry that other news outlets don't pour through that crack and demand the truth.  

 

[Ron Bulman]

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Thanks.

But that title, Beyond the Magic Bullet?

How do you go beyond something that is a myth.

Ha.  An audible belly laugh.  Maybe a pristine myth, the result of in-immaculate conception (Specter)?