Allen Dulles and his Nazi Pals in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[W. Niederhut]

4 hours ago, John Cotter said:

William,

When people cite their credentials in a debate, it's an admission that their arguments aren't strong enough in themselves to pass muster.

I don't understand why you feel the need to take a side swipe at another forum member in your reply to me.

The books and articles you cite are all centred on the same theme - the alleged wickedness of Putin, the dysfunctionality of his "regime" and the purported superiority in every way of the west. It's essentially the classic imperialistic, quasi racist, perspective which, ironically is itself irrational and immoral.

That kind of "thinking" precludes any objective or rational understanding of what's happening in Ukraine. It's the kind of thinking which caused the Ukraine conflict in the first place and which can only lead to its further destruction.

Your basic premise is that compared to Russia, the west can do no wrong. So, for example, as far as you're concerned, there's nothing wrong with a monumental act of terrorism such as the blowing up of the Nord Stream pipeline, because it was committed by the US and its vassal states.

Such perverse thinking is impervious to reason and this "debate" is going nowhere.

John,

      C'mon, man.   If you erroneously accuse a logician of being "illogical," should they set the record straight?

      I can see that you don't really want to educate yourself about the history of former KGB Lt. Col. Vladimir Putin and his totalitarian police state.  That history has everything to do with Putin's invasion of Ukraine-- the latest step in his longstanding agenda of re-establishing the former Soviet Union as an FSB-aligned dictatorship.

     You're also dead wrong in claiming that I have not been a critic of the U.S. military industrial complex-- including the Vietnam War and our phony Neocon "War on Terror" after 9/11.  See my (above) comments to Ben on that very subject.

     I was attacked, as the editor of my school newspaper, for criticizing Nixon's bombing of Cambodia years ago.  And I was also attacked in 2003 for criticizing Bush & Cheney's invasion of Iraq.

     What you fail to understand is that the war crimes of the CIA and U.S. military don't justify the crimes of the KGB/FSB and Russian military.  I have been a critic of both.

      Your irrationality and perverse misinterpretations of my arguments are, indeed, leading nowhere in this "debate" about Putin's horrific invasion of Ukraine.

      

[Kirk Gallaway]

2 hours ago, Paul Rigby said:

Video: America is at War with Europe

 By Prof Michel Chossudovsky

Global Research, February 11, 2023

Luxmedia and Global Research

https://www.globalresearch.ca/video-america-is-at-war-with-europe/5808102

“Throughout “all of this scheming,” the source said, “some working guys in the CIA and the State Department were saying, ‘Don’t do this. It’s stupid and will be a political nightmare if it comes out.’”

 “This is not kiddie stuff,” the source said. If the attack were traceable to the United States, “It’s an act of war.”

(How America Took Out the Nord Stream Pipeline, By Seymour M. Hersh, February 08, 2023, emphasis added)

***

Unfolding “Political Nightmare”

The evidence amply confirms that The Nord Stream was the object of an act of sabotage ordered by President Joe Biden.

Nord Stream –which originates in Russia– transits through the (maritime) territorial jurisdiction of four member states of the European Union. In international law, “Territorial Integrity” extends to “properties” located within the territorial waters of the Nation State.

From a legal standpoint (International Law: UN Charter, Law of the Sea) this was a U.S. Act of War against the European Union.

The deliberate destruction of said “properties” within a country’s territorial waters by or on behalf of a foreign state actor constitutes an act of war.

Germany’s Prosecutor General Peter Frank confirmed in an in-depth investigation that:

“there is no evidence to blame Russia for the destruction of the Nord Stream gas pipelines”.

If it Wasn’t Russia, Who was Behind it?

According to the Prosecutor General:

“[The suspicion] that there had been a foreign sabotage act [in this case], has so far not been substantiated”

Peter Frank casually dispels the role of the US president (which is amply confirmed) (see below).

The Attack is “Traceable”. It’s an Act of Economic and Social Warfare against the European Union.

The US act of sabotage coupled with the sanctions regime has created social havoc and hardship throughout the European Union. Inflation spearheaded by rising energy costs has gone fly high. People are freezing, unable to pay their heating bills.

While media reports fail to acknowledge the social and economic impacts of the US act of sabotage,  official EU sources confirm (without mentioning the cause) that:

“the number of its citizens living in energy poverty could be as high as 125 million” (28% of its total population).

Europe is in Debt Crisis. The Welfare State is being dismantled.

Destabilizing the EU Economy

The EU economy which has relied on cheap energy from Russia is in a shambles, marked by disruptions in the entire fabric of industrial production (manufacturing), transportation and commodity trade.

A string of corporate bankruptcies resulting in lay-offs and unemployment is unfolding across the European Union. Small and medium sized enterprises are slated to be wiped of map:

“Rocketing energy costs are savaging German industry”… 

“Germany’s manufacturing industry — which accounts for more than one fifth of the country’s economic output — is worried some of its companies won’t see the crisis through. …”

“Industry behemoths like Volkswagen (VLKAF) and Siemens (SIEGY) are grappling with supply chain bottlenecks too, but it is Germany’s roughly 200,000 small and medium-sized manufacturers who are less able to withstand the shock [of rising energy prices]

These companies are a vital part of the “Mittelstand,” the 2.6 million small- and medium-sized enterprises that account for more than half of German economic output and nearly two-thirds of the country’s jobs. Many are family-owned and deeply integrated into rural communities”

https://rumble.com/v291ufc-michel-chossudovsky-american-is-at-war-with-europe.html

Yes Paul, I don't believe anything just because Hersch said it, but if the US. unilaterally bombed Nord stream, that  would be a hostile act to the EU. How come no European leaders are opening their mouth? Is it because they're so intimidated by the U.S.? Or perhaps still looking into it further?

But of course, the U.S. is the world major super power. Why would the U.S.  do such a thing and take such a chance of being exposed betraying their allies in a time period, of agreed upon  mutual need? Because of their relentless quest  for "Full spectrum Dominance"?

And they have total certainty they would get away with it, because after all they got away with the JFKA?

[W. Niederhut]

12 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Yes Paul, I don't believe anything just because Hersch said it, but if the US. unilaterally bombed Nord stream, that  would be a hostile act to the EU. How come no European leaders are opening their mouth? Is it because they're so intimidated by the U.S.? Or perhaps still looking into it further?

But of course, the U.S. is the world major super power. Why would the U.S.  do such a thing and take such a chance of being exposed betraying their allies in a time period, of agreed upon  mutual need? Because of their relentless quest  for "Full spectrum Dominance"?

And they have total certainty they would get away with it, because after all they got away with the JFKA?

Kirk,

     George F. Kennan's thesis in his famous monograph, American Diplomacy, was that the U.S. should have been more actively engaged, earlier, in helping Poland, Czechoslovakia, Britain, and France counter the rising threat of N-a-z-i totalitarianism in Europe.  America was too "isolationist."  Europe paid a price.

     Where was our terrible American "full spectrum dominance" when Europe really needed it in 1938?

     By the time the U.S. finally committed troops to fighting the N-a-z-i-s, the Wehrmacht had already occupied most of Europe, and Hitler was bombing cities in the U.K. with V-2 rockets.

     The obvious threat to Europe at present is Russian Federation totalitarianism, which has been absolutely brutal.  The last time I checked, the Russians were bombing cities in Ukraine with missiles and drones.

     Those who have criticized U.S. engagement in Ukraine here have assiduously avoided any acknowledgement of Putin's war crimes in Ukraine-- attributing criticism of Putin to "racism," "irrationality," and Deep State propaganda, etc.

     But it is no stretch to say that what we are witnessing in Ukraine is a brutal assault on sovereignty, international law, and democracy by Putin's totalitarian police state.  The Russians are even recruiting troops from populations of convicts in Russian prisons.

     So, the pearl clutching about the U.S./NATO Nordstream sabotage is, in many ways, a criticism of American engagement in helping to defend Europe from militant Russian totalitarianism.

     Sanctions, embargoes, and economic blockades have long been an aspect of war, haven't they?

     Should the U.S. have isolated itself from this European catastrophe in Ukraine, as we did from 1938 to 1942, rather than engaging in such outrageous American "full spectrum dominance?" 

     

     

Edited February 14, 2023 by W. Niederhut

[Matt Allison]

This seems to explain why Hersh's accusations haven't gotten any traction:

https://oalexanderdk.substack.com/p/blowing-holes-in-seymour-hershs-pipe

[John Cotter]

6 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

John,

      C'mon, man.   If you erroneously accuse a logician of being "illogical," should they set the record straight?

      I can see that you don't really want to educate yourself about the history of former KGB Lt. Col. Vladimir Putin and his totalitarian police state.  That history has everything to do with Putin's invasion of Ukraine-- the latest step in his longstanding agenda of re-establishing the former Soviet Union as an FSB-aligned dictatorship.

     You're also dead wrong in claiming that I have not been a critic of the U.S. military industrial complex-- including the Vietnam War and our phony Neocon "War on Terror" after 9/11.  See my (above) comments to Ben on that very subject.

     I was attacked, as the editor of my school newspaper, for criticizing Nixon's bombing of Cambodia years ago.  And I was also attacked in 2003 for criticizing Bush & Cheney's invasion of Iraq.

     What you fail to understand is that the war crimes of the CIA and U.S. military don't justify the crimes of the KGB/FSB and Russian military.  I have been a critic of both.

      Your irrationality and perverse misinterpretations of my arguments are, indeed, leading nowhere in this "debate" about Putin's horrific invasion of Ukraine.

      

William,

You failed to address my point about the outrageous act of terrorism committed by the US and its vassal states, the blowing up of the Nord Stream natural gas pipeline.

[W. Niederhut]

32 minutes ago, John Cotter said:

William,

You failed to address my point about the outrageous act of terrorism committed by the US and its vassal states, the blowing up of the Nord Stream natural gas pipeline.

John,

     I have posted several comments about the Nordstream demolition as an act of war (in which no one was killed.)

     For example, on page 16 of this lengthy thread, I wrote;

My point about Nordstream is that it was a source of funding for Putin's genocidal war in Ukraine.

Putin is committing mass murder of civilians in Ukraine with missiles and drones. 

Is it ethical in this situation to establish a blockade on his military resources and funding?

...

Is democracy worth defending?  And at what cost?

Perhaps Biden and the U.S. military should have left that Nordstream issue up to you Europeans.

But we Americans waited too long to intervene against Hitler, and you Europeans paid a high price for our isolationism prior to 1942.

[Kirk Gallaway]

W. I'm not sure how you were addressing my question. I assume you're justifying the action, while not addressing that it is a hostile act toward the EU. and what would be there position. 

Matt, I appreciate the involved and very interesting article saying Hersch's piece is a total scam!

But I wasn't asking you either of you guys.

My question is directed to the people who most believe in the story. Namely Chris for posting the story and Paul Rigby for running with story and calling it an act of war on Europe and John who firmly believes the story but chose to interact on some point with you,. W.

I'll ask the question again of Paul, Chris,, John and whoever else who believes the story.

7 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

if the US. unilaterally bombed Nord stream, that  would be a hostile act to the EU. How come no European leaders are opening their mouth? Is it because they're so intimidated by the U.S.? Or perhaps still looking into it further?

But of course, the U.S. is the world major super power. Why would the U.S.  do such a thing and take such a chance of being exposed betraying their allies in a time period, of agreed upon  mutual need? Because of their relentless quest  for "Full spectrum Dominance"?

And they have total certainty they would get away with it, because after all they got away with the JFKA

 

 

 

 

 

[Matt Allison]

Looks like Putin now wants to take over Moldova. 

What a shocker...   Not.

https://www.politico.eu/article/moldova-president-maia-sandu-russia-attack/

[Ron Bulman]

5 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

This seems to explain why Hersh's accusations haven't gotten any traction:

https://oalexanderdk.substack.com/p/blowing-holes-in-seymour-hershs-pipe

I wondered about the original article simply because it was by Hersch.  As well as the secrecy aspect.  This is pretty damning though.

[Bob Ness]

6 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Where was our terrible American "full spectrum dominance" when Europe really needed it in 1938?

Considering how pleased they were with World War 1. It gets tiresome going over to Europe to clean up scrapes that have been going on for centuries. There was a lot of resistance for that reason.

[Matt Allison]

If you'd like to read news about Russia that is actually written by civilian Russians, check out this site:

https://meduza.io/en

Despite his best attempts, Putin has been unable to figure out a way to shut this site down.

 

[Matthew Koch]

2 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

W. I'm not sure how you were addressing my question. I assume you're justifying the action, while not addressing that it is a hostile act toward the EU. and what would be there position. 

Matt, I appreciate the involved and very interesting article saying Hersch's piece is a total scam!

But I wasn't asking you either of you guys.

My question is directed to the people who most believe in the story. Namely Chris for posting the story and Paul Rigby for running with story and calling it an act of war on Europe and John who firmly believes the story but chose to interact on some point with you,. W.

I'll ask the question again of Paul, Chris,, John and whoever else who believes the story.

 

Kirk, Chris currently can't reply or use the message function as the moderators are presently applying a restriction to his account. All he has been told is that Lance complained that his profile wasn't filled in enough. Chris, added some detail complying with this request. He has heard nothing from Mark Knight or any of the other moderators. 
He said it's very odd as to so many members either don't have their profiles filled in or have minimal detail. This includes moderator profiles. He'd like a moderator to explain..

[Paul Brancato]

And there you have it. I’ll look forward to Chris being reinstated. 

[John Cotter]

7 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

John,

     I have posted several comments about the Nordstream demolition as an act of war (in which no one was killed.)

     For example, on page 16 of this lengthy thread, I wrote;

My point about Nordstream is that it was a source of funding for Putin's genocidal war in Ukraine.

Putin is committing mass murder of civilians in Ukraine with missiles and drones. 

Is it ethical in this situation to establish a blockade on his military resources and funding?

...

Is democracy worth defending?  And at what cost?

Perhaps Biden and the U.S. military should have left that Nordstream issue up to you Europeans.

But we Americans waited too long to intervene against Hitler, and you Europeans paid a high price for our isolationism prior to 1942.

So US Machiavellianism is good but Russian Machiavellianism is bad.

Good man, William.

[John Cotter]

5 hours ago, Matthew Koch said:

Kirk, Chris currently can't reply or use the message function as the moderators are presently applying a restriction to his account. All he has been told is that Lance complained that his profile wasn't filled in enough. Chris, added some detail complying with this request. He has heard nothing from Mark Knight or any of the other moderators. 
He said it's very odd as to so many members either don't have their profiles filled in or have minimal detail. This includes moderator profiles. He'd like a moderator to explain..

Are double standards being applied here?

Edited February 14, 2023 by John Cotter