Lee Harvey Oswald's Cries for Help

[Gil Jesus]

Lee Harvey Oswald proclaims his innocence in the assassination of President Kennedy and the murder of Dallas Police Officer J.D. Tippit and tells the world that the Dallas Police are denying him legal assistance.

 

[David Josephs]

Thanks Gil... Love that amazing moment in this clip when he is told again that he IS charged with JFK...

Like a double-take of misbelief and reluctant acceptance...  wrote too soon, the end of the clip is cut off...  at :56 he is told "You have been charged"

reaction is priceless...

 

Edited February 3, 2023 by David Josephs

[David Andrews]

Plus the moment his voice breaks when he says, tentatively, that he's only heard innuendo about being charged from "the reporters in the hallway."

Not exactly a fanatic owning his crime.

More like a guy realizing how he got here, but not knowing why.  Always hurts a bit.

Edited February 3, 2023 by David Andrews

[Gerry Down]

1 hour ago, David Andrews said:

Plus the moment his voice breaks when he says, tentatively, that he's only heard innuendo about being charged from "the reporters in the hallway."

Not exactly a fanatic owning his crime.

More like a guy realizing how he got here, but not knowing why.  Always hurts a bit.

He probably wishes he hadn't shot Kennedy at this point. Now he's gonna get the chair.

[David Josephs]

38 minutes ago, Gerry Down said:

He probably wishes he hadn't shot Kennedy at this point. Now he's gonna get the chair.

You kidding, right?

Is this really Bugliosi with a pseudo-name...  

Edited February 3, 2023 by David Josephs

[Benjamin Cole]

Well, tough to read tea leaves, or facial expressions...but....

My take is LHO was involved in the JFKA, but probably unwittingly. 

We have more or less shown LHO was an intel-state asset. 

We strongly suspect the intel-state was involved in the JFKA.

So, LHO, an intel state asset, was in the TSBD, whereabouts unknown, during the JFKA. Multiple witness saw a rifle extended from the TSBD, and related gunshots, during the JFKA.  

To posit LHO was totally uninvolved in the JFKA is probably a bridge too far. Also, LHO went home and got a revolver after the JFKA, and then decided to watch a movie? 

LHO knew something was up within moments of the JFKA. And he suspected what was up involved him. 

My guess LHO thought he was involved in a false flag intel op, to be blamed on Castro. Probably a missed shot at JFK. LHO may have even fired the missed shot. 

(I have long been uncomfortable with the "no one saw LHO on the stairs after the JFKA" argument as exculpatory. But somebody stuck a rifle from the sixth-floor window during the JFKA, and then exited the building unseen in the stairwell. No one saw whoever that was. If somebody else could have done it, then LHO could have). 

 

 

 

[Tom Gram]

12 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

(I have long been uncomfortable with the "no one saw LHO on the stairs after the JFKA" argument as exculpatory. But somebody stuck a rifle from the sixth-floor window during the JFKA, and then exited the building unseen in the stairwell. No one saw whoever that was. If somebody else could have done it, then LHO could have). 

I agree with this for the most part, but I’m pretty sure there’s evidence suggesting that somebody could have come down on the elevator and snuck out the back door through the loading dock - or something like that, so I don’t think it’s a 100% certainty that LHO or anyone else had to be the stairs.

I think the Secret Service actually timed escape routes through the elevator during their reconstruction, which is kind of interesting since it had already been established that Oswald came down the stairs. 

[David Josephs]

Oswald was not on the 6th floor, was not on the stairs, and it has been proven repeatedly there was no lunchroom incident...

Right after the assassination he points out the phone to a reporter who asks him while there on the first floor inside the double doors..

THE GIRL ON THE STAIRS adds more proof that noone came down while Baker and Truly make their way up.

Sure be nice when someday we can all agree on some of the basic facts of the case which have been proven over the years...

Quite a lot has been shown to be the @#$% it was... and a more correct version of the truth has been established

[Joe Bauer]

If there was someone else on that 6th floor besides Oswald, of course they would plan on getting out asap via the back loading dock.

They certainly wouldn't go down to the lunch room, buy a soda pop, and then continue down to the first floor and simply walk out the front door.

I mentioned earlier that for Oswald to shout he was denied legal assistance by the Dallas PD to the massive live TV press crowd with the entire world watching 24 hours after his arrest and intense interrogation was an astounding event.

Even I as a 12 year old watching this thought "isn't there something very wrong here regards Oswald's constitutional rights?"

Also, the whole frantic body against body press mob scene with all that pushing, shouting and Oswald's guard escorts shoving them out of the way like a rugby match seemed so bizarre and illogical to me and I am sure millions of other Americans.

One had to ask the obvious...

Why is the DPD allowing the very insides of their inner most offices to be over-run like that...and then parading Oswald right into and through that shouting shoving circus?

I never bought Curry's oft repeated excuse that "we wanted to show we weren't abusing Oswald physically" nonsense.

[Benjamin Cole]

7 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Oswald was not on the 6th floor, was not on the stairs, and it has been proven repeatedly there was no lunchroom incident...

Right after the assassination he points out the phone to a reporter who asks him while there on the first floor inside the double doors..

THE GIRL ON THE STAIRS adds more proof that noone came down while Baker and Truly make their way up.

Sure be nice when someday we can all agree on some of the basic facts of the case which have been proven over the years...

Quite a lot has been shown to be the @#$% it was... and a more correct version of the truth has been established

DJ--

Well...

For sake of conversation, let us accept your premise, that LHO was not involved with the rifle seen extending from the sixth floor, and firing, during the JFKA.

But somebody was there with the rifle, and they left the scene without being seen on the stairs. Do you agree with that? How did they leave the building?

Do you believe LHO, a longtime intel-state asset, was entirely in the dark of events on 11/22 (during which the intel state murdered JFK). 

Why did he go home and get a revolver, and then decide to watch a movie? 

Side note: The fact that some evidence would be successfully challenged in court...does that mean the evidence is truly bogus or just would not meet a court challenge? 

 

[David Josephs]

16 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

DJ--

Well...

For sake of conversation, let us accept your premise, that LHO was not involved with the rifle seen extending from the sixth floor, and firing, during the JFKA.

But somebody was there with the rifle, and they left the scene without being seen on the stairs. Do you agree with that? How did they leave the building?

Do you believe LHO, a longtime intel-state asset, was entirely in the dark of events on 11/22 (during which the intel state murdered JFK). 

Why did he go home and get a revolver, and then decide to watch a movie? 

Side note: The fact that some evidence would be successfully challenged in court...does that mean the evidence is truly bogus or just would not meet a court challenge? 

 

Ok, for the sake of conversation...

Are you aware that the Warren Commissioners were allowed to take testimony and evidence and simply change it... 
that the FBI would go over the reports/testimony of their agents and and adjust them as needed before publication?

I find it especially difficult to believe that an actual firing weapon was extended out the window and fired real shots... the three men but 10 feet below this rifle where not rendered deaf, no ringing ears... with a 150dB sound not once, but 3 times... and then have the gall to claim they not only could hear but that Norman claimed to hear the bolt and shells hitting the floor...  uh, yeah... not so much.

Oswald said he was a Patsy... that is definitely an informed choice.  Did he know something may be up... very possibly...  had you ever considered he may have been the soldier to fall on his sword for the good of the assassination mission?  Not saying that's how it was, just saying have you considered it as it is a realistic option given as you say, his being a longtime intel-state asset.

As to the revolver, that's a discussion for another time...  but no, I do not believe he retrieved a pistol.  Was Oswald in short sleeves or in that long sleeve brownish-red long sleeved shirt with buttons down the front?  Wonder why Applin would say this, right?

Mr. BALL - Who pulled the pistol?
Mr. APPLIN - I guess it was Oswald, because--for one reason, that he had on a short sleeve shirt, and I seen a man's arm that was connected to the gun.

Finally, the reason physical evidence is not accepted in court is because it cannot be authenticated in the legal sense of the word... 1 of the ways is Chain of Custody except the FBI took all the evidence, all 250+ items, Friday night... and returned over 455 items a couple days later only to stage the retaking of the evidence like it was the first time... that's why Cadigan got in so much trouble...

This is Dulles rewriting his testimony and here is how it appears in the WCR:  CADIGAN never said those words, they were written for him.  Now that you know what could be done to the evidence, still think we can rely on any of the evidence to explain what happened that day?

Mr. EISENBERG. Do you know why Exhibit No. 820 was not reprocessed or desilvered?
Mr. CADIGAN. No, this is a latent fingerprint matter.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain why the signature, "Lee Oswald" or rather "L. H. Oswald" is apparent, while the signature "A. J. Hidell" is not?
Mr. CADIGAN. Different inks.

 

[David Josephs]

[Charles Blackmon]

9 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Oswald was not on the 6th floor, was not on the stairs, and it has been proven repeatedly there was no lunchroom incident...

Right after the assassination he points out the phone to a reporter who asks him while there on the first floor inside the double doors..

THE GIRL ON THE STAIRS adds more proof that noone came down while Baker and Truly make their way up.

Sure be nice when someday we can all agree on some of the basic facts of the case which have been proven over the years...

Quite a lot has been shown to be the @#$% it was... and a more correct version of the truth has been established

So do you think Oswald could have been part of an 'Abort' team sent in to stop the assassination? There was some mention of this on the film Frame 313. I don't recall the name of the person they interviewed who said he was on this team. 

[Benjamin Cole]

45 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Ok, for the sake of conversation...

Are you aware that the Warren Commissioners were allowed to take testimony and evidence and simply change it... 
that the FBI would go over the reports/testimony of their agents and and adjust them as needed before publication?

I find it especially difficult to believe that an actual firing weapon was extended out the window and fired real shots... the three men but 10 feet below this rifle where not rendered deaf, no ringing ears... with a 150dB sound not once, but 3 times... and then have the gall to claim they not only could hear but that Norman claimed to hear the bolt and shells hitting the floor...  uh, yeah... not so much.

Oswald said he was a Patsy... that is definitely an informed choice.  Did he know something may be up... very possibly...  had you ever considered he may have been the soldier to fall on his sword for the good of the assassination mission?  Not saying that's how it was, just saying have you considered it as it is a realistic option given as you say, his being a longtime intel-state asset.

As to the revolver, that's a discussion for another time...  but no, I do not believe he retrieved a pistol.  Was Oswald in short sleeves or in that long sleeve brownish-red long sleeved shirt with buttons down the front?  Wonder why Applin would say this, right?

Mr. BALL - Who pulled the pistol?
Mr. APPLIN - I guess it was Oswald, because--for one reason, that he had on a short sleeve shirt, and I seen a man's arm that was connected to the gun.

Finally, the reason physical evidence is not accepted in court is because it cannot be authenticated in the legal sense of the word... 1 of the ways is Chain of Custody except the FBI took all the evidence, all 250+ items, Friday night... and returned over 455 items a couple days later only to stage the retaking of the evidence like it was the first time... that's why Cadigan got in so much trouble...

This is Dulles rewriting his testimony and here is how it appears in the WCR:  CADIGAN never said those words, they were written for him.  Now that you know what could be done to the evidence, still think we can rely on any of the evidence to explain what happened that day?

Mr. EISENBERG. Do you know why Exhibit No. 820 was not reprocessed or desilvered?
Mr. CADIGAN. No, this is a latent fingerprint matter.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain why the signature, "Lee Oswald" or rather "L. H. Oswald" is apparent, while the signature "A. J. Hidell" is not?
Mr. CADIGAN. Different inks.

 

The three men on the fifth floor should be "rendered deaf"? What does that mean? 

I certainly accept that witness testimony and affidavits were controlled, and the WC conducted a prosecution of LHO, not an investigation. 

You raise an interesting point: In their zeal to present counter-narratives, has the CT community (of which I am part) tried too hard to exonerate LHO? 

LHO was an intel-asset, inside the TSBD, at the time the intel-state assassinated JFK, at least in part from the TSBD (even if he TSBD rifle and shot actions were only a diversion). So, was LHO involved, even unwittingly, in the JFKA?  I think so. 

Too many earnest witness described seeing a rifle protruding from the sixth-floor window, and being fired, to wish that fact away, IMHO. Whoever fired that rifle somehow left the scene, and unseen on the stairwell. 

I admire your checking of evidence. But some flaws in the evidence, such a same-day affidavits, and may be due to the hub-bub of the day and human error. 

Roy Truly gave a same-day affidavit, as did Marion Baker. They more or less line up. Really, on the same day as the JFKA, within hours, Roy Truly was telling bald-faced lies? In other words, Truly was part of the JFKA? 

Amos Euins described seeing the gunman to a Dallas police officer within moments, and was witnessed by a newsman doing so. Euins was also part of the JFKA? 

Who would plan an assassination of a president that required witting cooperation and then perjury and sustained lifetime lying of building managers in Dallas? of Amos Euins? And many local police officers? And then also the Secret Service? 

My take is the JFKA involved perhaps a handful, or even fewer, witting pre-JFKA participants.

I am a pacifist through and through, so I hope this comment is not taken out of context: No sensible person would plan a presidential assassination with more than two or three, or possibly four, accomplices, and those guys would be people you knew and trusted for a long time. Think Cuban exiles, related mercenaries, CIA true believers etc. The Miami Station. 

Many became semi-complicit in the JGFK afterwards, in trying to make the WC findings hold water, in believing they were doing the right thing, fighting communism and lefties, stabilizing the country, doing what authorities told them to so, and so on. 

Just IMHO.  

 

[David Josephs]

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

The three men on the fifth floor should be "rendered deaf"? What does that mean?

It means, when the ears are exposed to a sound above 120dB the result is massive ringing in the ears and short term deafness...

A rifle the likes of the Carcano produces 150dB at the muzzle and less of course as you move away from it...

Being 10 feet below the muzzle and inches from the open windows these three men would have been deaf with intense ringing in the ears after the first shot, let alone 2 more...  they lied about what they heard.

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Roy Truly gave a same-day affidavit, as did Marion Baker. They more or less line up. Really, on the same day as the JFKA, within hours, Roy Truly was telling bald-faced lies? In other words, Truly was part of the JFKA? 

Not sure how much you know about the goings on at the TSBD and the running of weapons thru its doors...  

I have been doing this a long time Ben...  My focus has always been the visual evidentiary record and to take the time to research a subject as fully as I can before I open my mouth or write posts.  So many researchers live on an island of their choosing by focusing on a single aspect of the case without fully appreciating the interconnectivity of it all...  No Truly was not part of the JFKA but one has to wonder why he singled out Oswald as the only person who left when that was blatantly not true...

Of why the first day affidavits become a completely different story when testimony time rolled around... Oswald was alive when the affidavits were written, dead during the testimony... with no one to present opposing thoughts or cross examination.

And no, Euins wasn't in on it... but if you can honestly say you don't see how the Secret Service was involved there is little I can do but ask you to do some research... same goes for certain members of the DPD and Sheriff's department...  everyone was not needed to accomplish what was accomplished... it happened and the traces of the cover-up and conspiracy is etched into 26 volumes, 1555 WCDocuments, and evidence at the archives and personal collections which no one has gotten to see.

Putting it plainly... the Evidence IS the Conspiracy... iow, what we are left to study will NEVER illustrate what happened that day... but it does tell the story of how the president's murder was poorly investigated with a 100% slant towards finding Oswald guilty regardless the cost... just ask Abe Bolden, or Ralph Yarborough...

CE399 only comes into existence in the office of Rowley
It is the SS who takes the body from its lawful place to remove the "best evidence" from prying eyes.

Ever hear of Floyd Boring?  Look him up... and maybe ask Vince Palamara if the SS was involved or not.

At DPD we had WESTBROOK, CROY, FRITZ and a handful of men under WESTBROOK in the personnel department worming their way into every incriminating scenario that day... the chief of personnel Ben... with a story so full of BS it drips as you read it.

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

I am a pacifist through and through, so I hope this comment is not taken out of context: No sensible person would plan a presidential assassination with more than two or three, or possibly four, accomplices, and those guys would be people you knew and trusted for a long time. Think Cuban exiles, related mercenaries, CIA true believers etc. The Miami Station. 

Many became semi-complicit in the JGFK afterwards, in trying to make the WC findings hold water, in believing they were doing the right thing, fighting communism and lefties, stabilizing the country, doing what authorities told them to so, and so on. 

Just IMHO. 

And a good humble opinion at that... you seem very thoughtful and serious about the case and truly interested in digging deeper.  Compartmentalization my friend...

There really weren't as many people directly involved as everyone makes it out to be... Oswald was the one and only suspect, don't you find it just a little strange that every single item of evidence incriminates Oswald with virtually no exceptions?  That is until you actually look at what the FBI is saying and doing a bit more closely... and little by little it falls apart... why do you suppose there are millions of pages of evidence?

Blaming Oswald only takes a little faith, learning the truth takes a lifetime of dedicated work and analysis... and still the general public fells and knows there was something rotten in Denmark... well, actually Switzerland...

60 years later and we only have shadowy ideas about who was shooting from the front...  but does it really matter who when the resulting world situation changed so drastically against the pursuit of Peace and Freedom?  Howard Zinn comes to mind.

I'm guilty of dealing with the minutia.  I deal with the minutia because the major themes in this assassination are so mentally devastating they are hard to discuss... the way it happened should scare the #$% out of any reasonable thinking person...  but the minutia is both the trap and the escape.. expressed no better than these 2 paragraphs from Salandria many, many years ago...  I'm terribly sorry that I come off so heavy handed... to misunderstand what really happened that day is to turn one's back on the last 58 years of history, and the 4000 years of human intellectual existence before that.  The rulers, rich, and/or powerful want to stay that way and then some, regardless the cost... that is the human condition... in my humble opinion...

            "I'm afraid we were misled," Salandria said sadly.  "All the critics, myself included, were misled very early.  I see that now.  We spent too much time and effort micro-analyzing the details of the assassination when all the time it was obvious, it was blatantly obvious that it was a conspiracy.  Don't you think that the men who killed Kennedy had the means to do it in the most sophisticated and subtle way?  They chose not to.  Instead, they picked the shooting gallery that was Dealey Plaza and did it in the most barbarous and openly arrogant manner.  The cover story was transparent and designed not to hold, to fall apart at the slightest scrutiny.  The forces that killed Kennedy wanted the message clear:  'We are in control and no one -- not the President, nor Congress, nor any elected official -- no one can do anything about it.'  It was a message to the people that their government was powerless.  And the people eventually got the message.  Consider what has happened since the Kennedy assassination.  People see government today as unresponsive to their needs, yet the budget and power of the military and intelligence establishment have increased tremendously.

            "The tyranny of power is here.  Current events tell us that those who killed Kennedy can only perpetuate their power by promoting social upheaval both at home and abroad.  And that will lead not to revolution but to repression.  I suggest to you, my friend, that the interests of those who killed Kennedy now transcend national boundaries and national priorities.  No doubt we are dealing now with an international conspiracy.  We must face that fact -- and not waste any more time micro-analyzing the evidence.  That's exactly what they want us to do.  They have kept us busy for so long.  And I will bet, buddy, that is what will happen to you.  They'll keep you very, very busy and, eventually, they'll wear you down."