Moments Leading to Oswald's Deserved Death

[Charles Blackmon]

9 minutes ago, Bob Ness said:

 

I don't know how this could possibly escape Lance and other LNs. Clean pistols in the trunk is still SOP in many police departments. In 1960 Dallas they could probably have their pick of caliber.

It doesn't escape them. They are just being disingenious.

[Joe Bauer]

So many suspicion begging contradictions regards Jack Ruby's actions and words leading up to and following JFK's killing and his whacking of Lee Harvey Oswald.

When Jack Ruby planted himself in the Dallas Morning News advertising offices early on 11,22,1963 and uncharacteristically stayed hanging around there for hours ( instead of going down to the motorcade parade to see his real class fantasy goddess Jackie Kennedy in the flesh? ) right up to the shooting of JFK, even then, he didn't run immediately out of the offices? Perhaps to personally see and hear what the heck just happened from people on the ground just blocks from him?

Instead Ruby calls his sister EVA and cryingly sobs to her about what happened and his angst about what to do, where to go?

What happened afterwards and where Ruby went when he finally left the DMN building has always been a murky debated issue.

Ruby told the WC he went back to his club? Maybe stopping in at his local synagogue?

Reputable journalist Seth Kantor told the WC that Ruby instead went to Parkland hospital where he ( Kantor) was personally approached by Ruby and they exchanged words. The Warren Commission decided Kantor was over-excited delusional and he didn't really meet and talk to Ruby at Parkland hospital. Ha!

Later that same evening, Jack Ruby is on national newsreel film, walking through the halls of the Dallas Police Department, carrying his loaded 38 and mixed in with the huge press crowd allowed in there.

When Dallas DA Henry Wade gave his late night news conference ( in the same building? ) there was Jack Ruby in Inspecter Clouseau glasses and press note pad carrying disguise standing on a table in back, loudly interrupting Wade with clarification about Oswald's "Fair Play For Cuba" association back in New Orleans.

Uh...that was "Fair Play For Cuba Committee."

Curious...Jack Ruby did more reading research on Oswald than most of the press people in that room? And how much detailed background info on Oswald was even out there in just the first hours after JFK's murder?

But, there was Jack Ruby knowing more about Oswald than Wade and the dozens of press people in the audience as well?

All the while, Jack Ruby so obsesses about Jackie Kennedy's suffering and Jews perhaps being implicated in JFK's killing because a fellow Jew had published a "JFK WANTED FOR TREASON" ad in the local paper... when he finds himself just outside the DPD basement when Oswald is being moved out of there he loses his grasp of reality.

He realizes he could relieve both his soul torturing demons by going down to the DPD basement entrance, slip past security to once again mix in with Curry's press crowd and even manages to shove himself to the front of the crowd and lo and behold...Oswald's two side guards bring this smirking SOB right to him where all he needs to do is leap a couple of feet to get a full frontal open shot into Oswald's gut!

What incredible fateful luck!

My knight in shining armor destiny is NOW!

BOOM!

Ruby testified he didn't remember his thoughts or his saying anything during his shooting Oswald and his being wrestled to the ground right after.

But Dallas PD officers fighting him down clearly remember Ruby shouting..."YOU KNOW ME...I'M JACK RUBY!"

I bring you deli sandwiches and provide you with free drinks and girls! Just ask one of my closest police buddies "Blackie" Harrison.

He was standing right in front of me in the press crowd just as I leaped out and saved Jackie's honor!

Now, how about a pastrami on rye sandwich fellas? I haven't eaten hardly anything since Friday morning.

 

 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Guest]

On 2/11/2023 at 12:38 PM, Tom Gram said:

The near-religious fervor of many LNers is equally puzzling. What the hell do they care? Why is Oswald sole guilt in the assassination and unwavering trust in government such a dogmatic article of their faith?

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[David Josephs]

On 2/10/2023 at 9:36 AM, Michael Griffith said:

Oswald's "deserved death"? No need for the formality of due process under the Constitution, right?

I'm guessing you also believe the fairy tale that Jack Ruby strolled down the Main Street ramp and shot Oswald in a spontaneous fit of grief in order to prevent Jackie Kennedy from having to endure the spectacle of a trial?

One of the most outstanding pieces of work done by the HSCA was their thorough demolition of the myth that Ruby used the Main Street ramp to enter the basement. 

And WC apologists almost never talk about the fact that at Jack Ruby's trial, the prosecution established that the night before Oswald's transfer, Ruby was monitoring DPD plans for the transfer and was overheard to say in a conversation about the transfer during a phone call at the Nichols Parking Garage, "you know I'll be there." The person who heard him say this was Garnett Hallmark, the general manager of the parking garage.

Hi Michael...

John Armstrong and I recently finished a paper about that in detail https://harveyandlee.net/Oswald_Killed/Oswald_Killed.html

Yes, the HSCA concluded that the side door was the most likely but did not get deeper into it

We do... and it's quite interesting...  Hope you enjoy

[Denis Morissette]

In my case, I have not totally discarded a conspiracy. I`ve kept pushing to find new material on the topic in the hope to find a conspiracy. Most LNers may be people who don`t bring anything new to the table. They`re just satisfied reading books and analyzing the facts that are already knows. It is their choice. I`m a different bread. I am an asset for the honest CTers. 

[Ron Bulman]

7 hours ago, Bob Ness said:

Not for me. That's exactly how I look at it. To me this is the only forum left to look at the evidence and judge for myself whether there was a conspiracy or not.

I came to this forum for different reasons and have remained because of my interest in peripheral subjects that relate to the JFKA (as well as the JFKA). On this forum a person can hear from people who have researched the subject to varying degrees and amounts of time and access them personally and directly. Many have spoken to people directly involved (most of whom are dead by now) and in some instances they are actual participants in the official proceedings or surrounding events. In spite of the common flaming and bickering that occurs it's a fantastic repository of information regarding the JFKA and many of the characters. The posters are almost invariably of above average intelligence or better, regardless of their position on the subject. 

Since my time is taken up with personal and professional concerns, I can hardly devote the time to researching firsthand direct sources like many have. I appreciate the efforts of those that do and make it available. I will chime in on subjects I have specific experience with but stay away from topics featuring people who are much better informed on the subject. If I know people personally who I have spoken to about various topics, I'll throw that in also as long as the information has no known restrictions (I have contracted with Federal entities and private parties who demand non-disclosure of information).

The point is I tend to look at the subject as if I were a juror. In a sense I think we all are to some degree.

Well said Bob.

[Joe Bauer]

6 hours ago, Denis Morissette said:

In my case, I have not totally discarded a conspiracy. I`ve kept pushing to find new material on the topic in the hope to find a conspiracy. Most LNers may be people who don`t bring anything new to the table. They`re just satisfied reading books and analyzing the facts that are already knows. It is their choice. I`m a different bread. I am an asset for the honest CTers. 

Hope so.

Now, what is your take on the Sylvia and Annie Odio story?

Odio was interviewed by the HSCA, as were her family, her psychiatrist, Hall, Seymour, Larry Howard and the FBI agent who had interviewed Hall.^[14]

The HSCA reported that it was "inclined to believe Silvia Odio" and that at least one of the men resembled Oswald.^[15] The HSCA did not agree with the Warren Commission that Oswald could not have been in Dallas during the time period specified in Odio's allegations and reported the most likely dates for the encounter to be September 25, 26 or 27, 1963.^[15] The committee stated that Oswald's actions and values were consistent with one who would favor the Castro regime, and speculated that Oswald may have associated with anti-Castro activists to implicate movements such as JURE in the assassination or for some unrelated reason.^[16]

[Charles Blackmon]

16 hours ago, Denis Morissette said:

 I am an asset for the honest CTers. 

And yet you firmly believe Oswald deserved to be gunned down without benefit of a trial which was the best means for ensuring the truth would come out. Please spare us the hubris.

[Denis Morissette]

1 hour ago, Charles Blackmon said:

And yet you firmly believe Oswald deserved to be gunned down without benefit of a trial which was the best means for ensuring the truth would come out. Please spare us the hubris.

What I believe and what I do are 2 things. Of course, a trial would have been better, but I can’t change what happened. 

[Guest]

On 2/12/2023 at 9:21 AM, Denis Morissette said:

What I believe and what I do are 2 things. Of course, a trial would have been better, but I can’t change what happened. 

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Bob Ness]

1 hour ago, Lance Payette said:

No, I think the use of the term "deserved" painted you into a corner from which it's going to be difficult to escape.

I would like to have seen Oswald live just to see how it all played out. Even from my Lone Nut perch, I have some sympathy for Oswald because he was the product of a very dysfunctional youth.

The problem is that in Dallas in 1963 the parking garage was probably the fairest trial he could get.

[Gene Kelly]

21 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Hi Michael...

John Armstrong and I recently finished a paper about that in detail https://harveyandlee.net/Oswald_Killed/Oswald_Killed.html

Yes, the HSCA concluded that the side door was the most likely but did not get deeper into it

We do... and it's quite interesting...  Hope you enjoy

David:

Excellent paper and very informative read.

Another myth in this Ruby story involves Karen Lynn Bennett Carlin, aka “Little Lynn”, who worked as a stripper at Ruby’s Carousel Club. She later served as Ruby’s alibi after he shot Oswald. She allegedly phoned Ruby on the morning of November 24th, 1963, and asked him to wire her $25 for rent and groceries. While this was what she had testified to, her husband Bruce stated:

"I do not know for sure that the $25 that we asked for went for rent at that time or whether we kept it and paid it when it was due, or whether it went for groceries or medicine, which we both needed … had she not phoned, Ruby would not have been in downtown Dallas that Sunday morning and almost certainly would not have shot Oswald”.

Karen said that she called Ruby about 10:00 am on Sunday morning and Jack said that he would go downtown and send it Western Union ... but she and Bruce didn't pick it up until 3:20 pm that afternoon. Carlin was arrested in December 1963, during Ruby’s trial, for carrying a pistol into the courtroom in her purse. After the assassination, Carlin turned up on the lists of "mysterious deaths" although there was no evidence as such. In 1992, Karen Carlin came back from the dead, and contacted Gary Shaw after living under an assumed identity for 30 years and told him she knew of a plot to kill Oswald, that Ruby told her to phone him Sunday morning and would telegraph her $25 just before shooting Oswald, to establish his alibi as an impulsive act of revenge.

According to a 1993 news article by Peter Kendall, Karen spent much of 1964 changing residences in Fort Worth and made her last appearance as an exotic dancer at the Skyliner Ballroom where she was arrested by Fort Worth police for indecent exposure on Labor Day ... she pleaded guilty to a lesser charge, paid a fine and disappeared. Apparently, Penn Jones met with Carlin and an unknown man in Houston in 1966, where they allegedly asked Jones to report Carlin’s death so that she could go into witness protection. Karen lived under the name Karen Block in Detroit; her son alleged that he and his mother moved around and lived in multiple states while he was growing up. Karen passed away in July 2010. (Reference: 11/22/2013 article by Matt Smith, “This just in: Little Lynn still dead”, The Cleburne Times-Review).

Gene 

 

[Joe Bauer]

Little Lynn's call request for $25 that morning..."just happened" to take Ruby to the perfect location at the perfect time to get him in the perfect position to shoot Oswald?

Sorry...too many "just happened" events for me to believe it was all just...coincidence.

 

[Gil Jesus]

On 2/10/2023 at 1:11 PM, Lance Payette said:

Improbable and suspicious as Oswald's murder may seem, in an age without cellphones or even pagers I have a near-impossible time squaring any conspiracy theory with Ruby being at the Western Union office a block away at 11:17 or later (as a matter of happenstance at that), Sheba being in the car, and Ruby committing the murder at 11:21. 

Police interrogated Oswald until they got the "all clear" signal to move him. The "all clear" didn't mean the transport car was in position because it wasn't, as evident in the video. I suggest that the "all clear" signal meant that Ruby was in position and they could bring Oswald down.

Ruby wouldn't have to KNOW when police were moving Oswald because it was understood that police would simply wait for Ruby to get into position before bringing Oswald down.

If I'm right about that, the timing argument ( that Ruby couldn't possibly know when they were bringing Oswald down ) is nullified.

It also shows that Ruby had conspired with the Dallas Police to kill Oswald.

I believe he was supposed to kill Oswald on Friday night at the "Midnight Press Conference" but got cold feet because he was afraid he'd hit a Dallas Police Officer.

This would have been a perfect time to kill Oswald. They had not yet developed evidence against him for assassinating the President and the timing would have saved police the trouble of a.) arraigning him without evidence and b.) presenting that evidence in a court trial. But Ruby's failure to kill Oswald on Friday night forced the Dallas Police to do just that: to arraign Oswald for assassinating the President without any evidence against him.

The problem of police being in Ruby's line of fire and accidently being shot on Friday night was eliminated on Sunday, when police offered Oswald up without any side or frontal protection. In spite of there being 75 armed policemen in the basement, police made sure Ruby had a clear shot at Oswald that did not endanger any of their own or the members of the press.

Oswald could not be allowed to go to trial and his execution had to be done before he was transferred out of the hands of police and into the sheriff's custody. 

And BTW, flying machines DO crash due to reasons that have nothing to do with their flying capabilites or the distances they travel, like pilot error or mechanical failures. 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Gil Jesus

[Gene Kelly]

Gil and Joe:

David's excellent paper points out that there was a door on the Main St. side of the parking garage which led to the sub-basement, and two doors that opened into passenger elevators in the central part of the garage. Reserve Officer Alvin Brock was assigned to guard the doors and elevators but was re-assigned to traffic detail (about an hour or so before Ruby arrived). There was a second reservist (G.E. Worley, Jr.) guarding that area ... but, after Officer Brock left, he too was reassigned to traffic duty and left the building.  So, twenty minutes before Oswald was brought to the basement, there were no police officers guarding the parking area. This is where Croy enters the scene ... and Ruby arrives in the basement within 1-2 minutes of Oswald's transfer (thanks to Westbrook, Fritz and Harry Holmes), blending in with the news media and knowing exactly where to stand (next to Croy).  And it's clear that he didn't come down the ramp, as the Warren Commission (and Officer Patrick Dean) wanted us to believe.

Nothing coincidental or spontaneous about any of this. 

Gene