Top 5 Books On JFK & Vietnam

[James DiEugenio]

That is a pretty bad ratio.

Which means there is all that live ammo in Indochina today.

 

[Steve Thomas]

Whether it was what Hitler did to the Jews, or Stalin did to his own people, or what we did to the American Indian, or the North Vietnamese did, or what Genghis Khan and the Mongol Horde did, what the Persian did to the Greeks and the people of the Near East,

I read a line once that I have always tried to take to heart.

"Never underestimate the capacity for man's inhumanity to man".

Steve Thomas

 

 

[Joe Bauer]

On 8/14/2023 at 7:35 AM, Joe Bauer said:

From my rather small West Coast high school ( 1200 students ) most ( but not all ) of the boys who went to Vietnam as Marine and Army combat soldiers ( drafted and joined ) were usually not high grade point students and even dropouts and from poorer families, etc.

Conversely it seemed those from more middle class families and those who were better students or at least stayed in school mostly joined the Navy for their draft service.

I don't think one kid that I knew of from well off families ever got drafted and didn't join as well. Even if they got a low draft number, it seemed somehow they all came up with something viable for a deferment.

I was poor. I got my draft notice the day I turned 18. My number was 51.

I didn't run or hide even though I did not want to go to Vietnam. Especially as a combat soldier. Several of our students were killed or seriously injured there. Our Junior High school principal Mr. Ed Plowman ( great guy ) lost his jet fighter pilot son over North Vietnam. His son was one the first jet fighter pilots shot down there.

I already had 4 older brothers in the service in 1969. Two others served as well but got out by 1965. All joined from 1960 to 1967.

They did so for basic economic reasons. It was the only economic opportunity they had going for them right after high school and coming from a single mom on welfare home situation. No money, no college.

4 joined the Navy. 2 joined the Air Force. All enlisted men.

3 were in the Pac theater scene. Troop transport ship and carriers. Radarman, aviation tech and jet mechanic Chief who stayed in for 20 years. Another brother ( Air Force ) was stationed in Japan and Thailand during the Viet Nam war.

I was ordered to arrive at the Salinas, Calif. bus station at 4:00am just days after my birthday on September 21st, 1969.

6 old black buses with darkened windows took a couple hundred of us straight to the induction center in downtown Oakland to be processed.

The second you stepped off the bus Marine uniformed men began yelling at you to march in this line or that. Shut up, no talking. First stop basic arithmetic and reading test. Junior high level. Amazingly many of my fellow draftees seemed to struggle with questions as basic as 20 X 35 divided by two. Many could barely read!

The Army took those guys right away. I think some were even told they could go home their scores were so low.

Next - remove your clothes down to your skivvees. Here's a basket. Carry it while you walk the colored lines we tell you to. No questions, MOVE IT, MOVE IT...you dumb SOB's!

One hot headed draftee took offense to the gruff orders and hit a uniformed guard right in the nose! Blood everywhere.

The punch throwing guy was instantly put upon by six other guards who knocked the holy crap out of him and roughly dragged him away.

The rest of us got real big-eyed fear obedient after that.

One checking station after another. Eyes, teeth, sexual orientation.

Finally one for your feet!

By chance I had very deformed feet. They looked like pig knuckles and my arches were so extremely high they never touched the ground. I had dozens of seriously turned ankles throughout my high school sports activities, especially basketball and even simple running.

My ankle tendons were so stretched, torn and damaged and I "truly" had many bone spurs unlike Trump.

Somehow I figured ahead of time it wouldn't hurt to see an Orthopedic doctor before I got drafted and he took X-rays of my feet and ankles. I took these with me to the induction center with a far-out hope that maybe my foot problems might get me a free pass out.

And they did!

At the foot station a gravelly voiced soldier guard yelled out..."anybody here got any problems with their feet?" I went full on Jerry Lewis goofy arm waving animated and squealed..."right here sir, right here!"

I was removed from the big line and escorted to another wing of the building. Still walking in just my underwear and holding my basket and a large manila envelope with my X-rays.

 I was seated on a junky old couch in a hallway and left alone for 4 hours. Finally a guard come to me and gave me two theater type tickets. He said get your sorry *** down to this really crappy looking hotel in the worst part of downtown Oakland and check in. I was ordered to return to the induction center 5 or 6 blocks away at 7:am sharp the next morning.

My hotel room was about 8 feet long. The old creaky spring bed looked like it had been in a skid row house of ill repute before this hotel got hold of it.

Shared bathroom down the hall. No TV. Never really slept. Old room phone rang without pauses at 6:AM and the clerk simply said..."time to go."

The other ticket was for a breakfast meal at a cheap dive called "Fosters Cafeteria" in between the hotel and the induction center.

See Oakland history Ad below.

It was still dark when I walked in. Lot of street people in there drinking coffee.

Eggs and pancakes were surprisingly tasty.

I soon walked to the induction center. Explained my situation and was ordered to some office exam type room.

Waited 6 hours, again on the same couch.

Finally a person who I assumed was an Orthopedic came and motioned me in. No pleasantries at all.

" Get down and squat." "Now duck walk." "Stand on your tip toes." Walk to the wall and back." etc. etc.

"Let me look at your X-rays."

A few minutes of silent study and note writing then "Here...take these papers down the long hall to the number ( X? ) window.

Clerk looked at them and soon enough stamped on new papers "1 Y"

Medical deferment! 

"Here is a Greyhound bus pass back to your home town. Now get your B*** out of here."

On the fairly long walk to the bus station I felt a weird cold breeze on my backside and noticed that at some point earlier ( doing squats in the exam room? ) I had split the back side of my cheap old pants "wide open." My white underwear was sticking out.

I didn't care. I didn't have to go to Viet Nam!

If my long personal Viet Nam draft story offends anyone here as time wasting irrelevant to the forum discussion focus let me know and I will delete all of it except the first few paragraphs.

Foster's Cafeteria (AKA Foster's Bakery) was a chain of restaurants, particularly noted for their English muffins. In 1967, they were at 1240 Broadway.

First Stop To Vietnam, The Induction Center

 

WebJan 3, 2019 · It was July 17, 1969, and on the following day I would be signing my name to a contract for the next four years. It would have been nice to take my induction physical in …

 

 

 

 

 

 

Added some interesting links and a photo of the outside of the Oakland draft induction center in 1969 above.

[Leslie Sharp]

55 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Whether it was what Hitler did to the Jews, or Stalin did to his own people, or what we did to the American Indian, or the North Vietnamese did, or what Genghis Khan and the Mongol Horde did, what the Persian did to the Greeks and the people of the Near East,

I read a line once that I have always tried to take to heart.

"Never underestimate the capacity for man's inhumanity to man".

Steve Thomas

 

 

. . . what the British did to the Irish, and the list goes on.

The distinction during the Holocaust was the overt sadism of medical experiments. 

[James DiEugenio]

Steve:

I think the social and psychological importance of the Vietnam War was that, for many Americans, it ripped them out of the somnolence of the post World War 2 dreamworld that television and radio had built for many of them.  One being the idea that somehow America had won World War 2  in Europe.  Recall all those TV shows like The Gallant Men, and movies like The Longest Day.

This was never true.  But it built up an image of American military omnipotence that was prevalent for decades after.  Also, the idea that it took America and its moral high ground to defeat the evil hordes of Fascism and communism. And it all came crashing down in Indochina. Especially after Tet.

I am just as guilty as everyone else.  I recall giving a speech in junior high school in which I droned on and on about how liberty and the American tradition were on the line in Vietnam. I had clearly been brainwashed.

Recall also, when George Romney visited Vietnam and then returned to say he had been so brainwashed.  This destroyed him as an opponent for Nixon.  Which ended up being a very serious blow for us all.  Since Tricky Dick kept that debacle going for years on end so he could declare Peace with Honor.

LOL

[W. Niederhut]

33 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Steve:

I think the social and psychological importance of the Vietnam War was that, for many Americans, it ripped them out of the somnolence of the post World War 2 dreamworld that television and radio had built for many of them.  One being the idea that somehow America had won World War 2  in Europe.  Recall all those TV shows like The Gallant Men, and movies like The Longest Day.

This was never true.  But it built up an image of American military omnipotence that was prevalent for decades after.  Also, the idea that it took America and its moral high ground to defeat the evil hordes of Fascism and communism. And it all came crashing down in Indochina. Especially after Tet.

I am just as guilty as everyone else.  I recall giving a speech in junior high school in which I droned on and on about how liberty and the American tradition were on the line in Vietnam. I had clearly been brainwashed.

Recall also, when George Romney visited Vietnam and then returned to say he had been so brainwashed.  This destroyed him as an opponent for Nixon.  Which ended up being a very serious blow for us all.  Since Tricky Dick kept that debacle going for years on end so he could declare Peace with Honor.

LOL

So true.

When my brother and I were young, we used to watch WWII-themed television shows like Combat, (and, later, The Rat Patrol) and play "war" with the kids in the neighborhood-- imitating the building-to-building combat maneuvers of American WWII GIs in Europe.  They were our heroes.  And we all believed that America had played the decisive role in defeating Nazi Germany-- partly because our dad (and uncles) had fought the Nazis in WWII.

But our idealization of the U.S. military really got turned upside down during the Nixon years, and, certainly by 1972, we had become utterly disgusted with Nixon and the U.S. military establishment.  I recall feeling depressed about George McGovern's blow out loss to Nixon in the '72 election.  McGovern won only Massachusetts and South Dakota.

My father, the WWII combat vet, remained a die-hard Nixon fan until the bitter end, when Nixon resigned.  (After which, Nixon became an unmentionable subject in our family.)

Edited August 17, 2023 by W. Niederhut

[Ron Bulman]

I turned 18 in October 1974 and had to register for what turned out to be the last draft in 1975.  They quit calling people up at the end of 1972 from what I've read, which I knew they hadn't for a year or so.  But I still worried.  I ended up at I think about 165.   I wondered if they started calling up again would they get that high?  Still have my draft card.  I was very naive about what could have happened.

I think I'd probably heard the term before but didn't know what a cluster bomb was or how they worked until the mid 90's when I read several of the earlier marked down Tom Clancy Jack Ryan novels.  His exploded about 4-5' off the ground, devastating enemy troops.  I thought this was new technology from the 1980's.  Had no idea they had been used in Vietnam.

I had a toy Thompson sub machine gun, helmet and still have a real wood and metal M1 with a breech that really worked and a fake bullet in it.  A G.I. Joe action figure with flame thrower, wet suit and rifle.  I remember seeing B/W clips from Vietnam on the news in the latter 60's.  But no family or friends killed or injured.  One cousin I was not close to was in the infantry, "in the thick of it", who I didn't realize was there at the time in the latter 60's and he never talked about it.  Another who was a crew chief on Huey's in the early 70's who told me "they take you straight out of high school, send you through basic training and ship you straight over there", where he did receives some further training to become a crew chief.  He claimed to be the only survivor in one crash and involved in a couple of other instances where the chopper was damaged, saw others injured and die.  

I've told this before.  But my first memory of Vietnam was a tv news cast of 5-6 soldiers gathered around in the jungle.  They had a detached rifle barrel with a small bowl of something smoking in it, sucking on the other end, passing it around.  Like Indians with a peace pipe.  Dad, what are they doing?  Aw, nothing.

I still knew nothing of reality in Vietnam when I turned 18.  I would have been bait on point on any early reconnaissance mission. 

[James DiEugenio]

All of those WW 2 glorifications on TV and film led to this:

One of the most humiliating moments in American history: the last helicopter out of Saigon.

That night, Kissinger called an old friend from academia and told him, "We should have never been there."

No kidding.

Edited August 18, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Steve Thomas]

Kent State did it for me.

I had been blase about the Vietnam War, but all of a sudden, those vaunted American soldiers from the John Wayne glory days had been turned on us.

Steve Thomas

[James DiEugenio]

I agree and the cover up about it approved by Rhodes was pretty disgusting. 

One of the great iconic pictures of the era.

BTW, let us never forget what that was about.  And Jackson State.

It was about the invasion of Cambodia.

Talk about blowback.  Read William Shawcross' book, Sideshow.

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

We almost forgot, that picture inspired one of the great protest songs.

CSNY

Ohio. 

TIn soldiers and Nixon coming

[Ron Bulman]

On 8/18/2023 at 1:27 AM, Steve Thomas said:

Kent State did it for me.

I had been blase about the Vietnam War, but all of a sudden, those vaunted American soldiers from the John Wayne glory days had been turned on us.

Steve Thomas

For you and Jim.  This is getting harder to find. CSNY Four Dead in Ohio won't do it.  Other good versions yes, and a Tom Brokaw piece.  Crosby Stills Nash and Young Four Dead In Ohio video original version did work.  if anyone has too short of an attention span, watch at least the last 30-40 seconds.

 

[James DiEugenio]

That was good thanks Ron. One of their best I think.

Nixon was such a slimeball about Kent State.  He immediately tried to blame the deaths on what he called "the bums" who were being afforded an education and instead decided to protest against the fine boys fighting in Vietnam. He was so determined to polarize the situation and not call for any meaningful dialogue, all the while hiding what he was really doing. Which was preparing to withdraw around the 1972 election with no Peace and no Honor.  That was all a pile of BS.  He and Kissinger knew that once all the Americans were out, that was it for Saigon. Hanoi would roll over South Vietnam.  They even talked about this openly.

The  horrible thing is that the book The Palace Guard, and also author Theodore Draper, have shown that the deal they got in 1972 was pretty much the same deal that could have been attained in 1969.  So the bombing and invasions of Cambodia and Laos were completely unnecessary. Yet the results were horrendous.
 

Edited August 19, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Pete Mellor]

 

[Michael Griffith]

Human Rights Watch is not the only major human rights group to document the repressive nature of Vietnam’s Communist regime. Amnesty International has also done this. Let’s look at some Amnesty International reports on conditions in Vietnam. We will readily see that Vietnam most certainly is not a “pretty nice country.”

This is from Amnesty International’s 2022/23 report titled Amnesty International Report 2022/23: The State of the World’s Human Rights:

          Viet Nam: Socialist Republic of Viet Nam

          A crackdown on both online and offline dissent raised concerns about a new wave of repression against civil society. Independent journalists, activists, religious practitioners and other government critics were arrested and charged under repressive laws. Human rights defenders were subjected to widespread harassment, digital surveillance, arbitrary arrest and politically motivated prosecution. Torture and other ill-treatment continued to be reported at an alarming rate.

          The sixth meeting of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Viet Nam (CPV) in October further cemented General Secretary Nguyễn Phú Trọng’s grip on power, signaling continued control and repression of civic space. Viet Nam was elected to the UN Human Rights Council despite a requirement that elected members uphold the highest human rights standards. The government made several pledges on human rights but, after declaring Viet Nam’s candidacy for the Council, it detained, arrested or sentenced at least 48 journalists, activists and NGO leaders. . . .

          Intolerance of dissent continued throughout 2022 with the right to freedom of expression continually restricted. Articles 117 and 331 of the 2015 Criminal Code continued to be used to arbitrarily detain and prosecute human rights defenders, journalists, religious practitioners and others who criticized the government or the CPV. . . .

          Six practitioners of the Tịnh Thất Bồng Lai temple were arrested under Article 331 of the Criminal Code and charged with “abusing democratic freedoms” for posting videos deemed to have “published false information” and “defamed the dignity” of local police and a monk from a government-controlled Buddhist Sangha. On 21 July, the six received prison sentences ranging from three to five years. Husband and wife, Nguyễn Thái Hưng and Vũ Thị Kim Hoàn, were also arrested under Article 331 after criticizing the government on a livestream video. They were sentenced in November to four years’ and two and a half years’ imprisonment respectively. . . .

          In September, land rights activist Trịnh Bá Tư reported being beaten, placed in solitary confinement and shackled for days while serving part of an eight-year sentence for spreading “propaganda against the state”. Despite calls by NGOs, no independent investigation took place. Tư’s family visited him in No 6 prison and reported that he was recovering after having been on a hunger strike for 22 days. Journalist Huỳnh Thục Vy also reported being beaten and choked in detention while serving a two years and nine months’ sentence under Article 276 of the Criminal Code for defacing a national flag. (https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/pol10/5670/2023/en/)

From a 2021 Amnesty International report:

          Reports of torture and other ill-treatment of prisoners remained widespread. In March, Amnesty International revealed that political activist Nguyễn Văn Đức Độ, who was serving an 11-year prison sentence, had been kept in solitary confinement since May 2020 in inhumane conditions at Xuân Lộc prison in Đồng Nai province. His prolonged solitary confinement and ill-treatment by prison guards severely affected his mental health. . . .

          A severe crackdown on both online and offline dissent occurred during the Communist Party of Viet Nam (CPV) National Conference and national elections. Independent journalists, publishers and other government critics were arrested and charged under repressive laws. Human rights defenders were subjected to widespread harassment, unlawful digital surveillance, arbitrary arrest and politically motivated prosecution. Torture and other ill-treatment continued to be reported. . . . .

          In February, an investigation by Amnesty International revealed a campaign of unlawful surveillance targeting human rights defenders conducted between February 2018 and November 2020. The spyware attacks were attributed to a group known as Ocean Lotus, and targeted Vietnamese activists both inside and outside the country. Among them was Bùi Thanh Hiếu, a blogger and pro-democracy activist residing in Germany. The Vietnamese Overseas Initiative for Conscience Empowerment (VOICE), a non-profit organization supporting Vietnamese refugees and promoting human rights in Viet Nam with offices in the USA and the Philippines, was also targeted.

          Prominent journalist, author and human rights defender Phạm Đoan Trang, who was arrested in October 2020, was sentenced to nine years’ imprisonment by The People’s Court of Hanoi on 14 December 2021. She was charged under Article 88 of the 1999 Penal Code for “storing, distributing or disseminating information, documents and items against the Socialist Republic of Viet Nam”, in relation to articles she had written about the environment and human rights, and interviews she gave to foreign media outlets. Prior to her trial, Phạm Đoan Trang had been held in incommunicado detention for over a year. Another prominent human rights defender, Nguyễn Thúy Hạnh, was arrested on 7 April and charged under Article 117 of the Criminal Code. She is the founder of the “50K Fund”, which fundraises to provide support for the families of unlawfully detained persons in Viet Nam, and she frequently discussed human rights issues on Facebook.

          On 5 May, two land rights activists, Cấn Thị Thêu and her son Trịnh Bá Tư, were convicted under Article 117 of the Criminal Code and sentenced to eight years’ imprisonment followed by three years’ probation for their peaceful advocacy of land rights. They had been arrested in June 2020 together with Trịnh Bá Phương (another son of Cấn Thị Thêu) and fellow land rights activist Nguyễn Thị Tâm. The four had spoken out about a high-profile land dispute in Đồng Tâm village near the capital, Hanoi, in which a clash during a police raid in January 2020 resulted in the deaths of an 84-year-old village leader and three police officers. In December, Trịnh Bá Phương and Nguyễn Thị Tâm were sentenced respectively to 10 years in prison with five years’ probation, and six years’ imprisonment with three years’ probation. Before his trial, Trịnh Bá Phương was held incommunicado for 16 months, with all requests for family visits denied by authorities.

          Intolerance of dissent hardened further throughout the year and the right to freedom of expression continued to be restricted. Arbitrary arrests and prosecutions of journalists, publishers and others who criticized the government or the CPV increased. Before the National Assembly elections in May, the authorities initiated a crackdown on independent election candidates and those critical of the election process.

          In March, political commentator Trần Quốc Khánh and citizen journalist Lê Trọng Hùng were arrested under Article 117 of the 2015 Criminal Code, which criminalizes “making, storing or spreading information, materials or items for the purpose of opposing the State of the Socialist Republic of Viet Nam” and carries a sentence of up to 20 years’ imprisonment. Both had applied to be independent (or “self-nominated”) candidates for the National Assembly elections. On 31 December, Lê Trọng Hùng was sentenced to five years in prison and five years’ probation. . . .

          In October, four people were arrested and charged under various articles of the Criminal Code for posting comments on Facebook that were critical of the government’s response to Covid-19. They remained in detention at year’s end. (https://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/viet-nam/)

From an Amnesty International report issued in 2016:

          A new report published by Amnesty International today casts a rare light on the torture and other harrowing treatment of prisoners of conscience locked up in Viet Nam’s secretive network of prisons and detention centers.

          Prisons within Prisons: Torture and ill-treatment of prisoners of conscience in Viet Nam details the ordeals endured by prisoners of conscience in one of the most closed countries in Asia, including prolonged periods of incommunicado detention and solitary confinement, enforced disappearances, the denial of medical treatment, and punitive prison transfers.

          “Viet Nam is a prolific jailer of prisoners of conscience; this report offers a rare glimpse at the horror that those prisoners face in detention,” said Rafendi Djamin, Amnesty International’s Director for South East Asia and the Pacific.

          “Viet Nam ratified the UN Convention against Torture in 2015. This in itself is not enough. In order to meet its human rights obligations, the authorities must introduce reforms in line with international law and ensure accountability for torture and ill treatment.”

          The report is based on one year’s research – including more than 150 hours of interviews with 18 former prisoners of conscience, who spent between one month and a decade in incarceration.

          Five of these men and women described to Amnesty International how they spent lengthy periods of time in solitary confinement in dark, fetid cells without access to fresh air, clean water and sanitation. Some were frequently beaten in clear contravention of global and national prohibitions on torture. (https://www.amnestyusa.org/reports/prisons-within-prisons-torture-and-ill-treatment-of-prisoners-of-conscience-in-viet-nam/)

@James DiEugenioJim, does any of this information give you pause/second thoughts about your claim that Vietnam is a “pretty nice country”? Somewhere deep down inside does it not occur to you that the liberal betrayal of South Vietnam was not only a disgraceful act of treason but a terrible human tragedy?