The three tramps mystery

[Joe Bauer]

4 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

Police ballistics experts couldn't find the "Made Italy" and "Cal 6.5" printed on the rifle, yet somehow non-rifle expert Mark Lane was able to find it. Strange!

They didn't immediately know that with that kind of stamping..."right on the barrel" that there was no way it was a Mauser?

For 24 hours?!

Beyond strange.

 

[Joe Bauer]

1 hour ago, Steve Thomas said:

The shells were found at 1'00 PM. The rifle was found at 1:22 PM.

The shells had already been bagged and tagged and entered into evidence by the time the rifle had been found.

I'll always believe in my heart, with absolutely no evidence whatsoever to back it up, that somebody screwed up and planted the wrong kind of shells.

You can't really have a 7.65 rifle with 6.5mm shells.

Steve Thomas

Ditto Steve.

[David Josephs]

4 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

The shells were found at 1'00 PM. The rifle was found at 1:22 PM.

The shells had already been bagged and tagged and entered into evidence by the time the rifle had been found.

I'll always believe in my hearts, with absolutely  no evidence whatsoever to back it up, that somebody screwed up and planted the wrong knd of shells.

You can't really have a 7.65 rifle with 6.5mm shells.

Steve Thomas

Steve...  yeah, you can have a larger caliber rifle and smaller caliber bullets by using a sabot (see below) which is the size of the rifle's caliber yet is holding the smaller caliber bullet.

Drop the 6.5 hulls by the window and just make sure the rifle in evidence matches that caliber.

Image on left is the rifle DAY is carrying from the TSBD, on the right is the one and only image of the caliber stamp on what they claim to be the rifle in evidence.

An actual 7.35 stamp compared to the 1 photo in evidence

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabot_(firearms)

[David Josephs]

3 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

They didn't immediately know that with that kind of stamping..."right on the barrel" that there was no way it was a Mauser?

For 24 hours?!

Beyond strange.

 

Joe,

A Mauser uses a Stripper clip, not the type of clip associated with CE139.  When no clip was present, Seymour Weitzman who had sold rifles and knew them pretty well said it was a Mauser and Boone/Craig backs him up.  If DAY actually said out loud "6.5 cal, Made in Italy" it's hard to understand how the 2 sheriffs sign an affidavit for a 7.65 rifle.

Most are not aware that FBI SA ODUM is the man who takes DAY back to his office, alone, with a rifle.  One would have thought the DPD, that DAY would have photos taken.  

Mr. McCLOY. There was never any doubt in your mind what the rifle was from the minute you saw it?
Mr. DAY. No, sir; It was stamped right on there, 6.5, and when en route to the office with Mr. Odum, the FBI agent who drove me in, he radioed it in, he radioed in what it was to the FBI over the air.

[David Josephs]

On 1/18/2005 at 5:00 PM, Steve Thomas said:

One set was taken off a boxcar in the yards behind the TSBD shortly after the assassination. The three tramps we are familiar with were arrested in a gondola type car south of Dealey Plaza.

I was quite surprised to have found this and reading thru the thread I don't think I missed this not being mentioned.  Harkness tells us he took more than just these three men off the train

Last sentence:

@Steve Thomas you mention DEAN is one of the sergeants over WISE... and a sergeant usually gives the orders to the street cops... Dean was the man who ordered the 2 men in the basement parking lot to leave their posts for traffic duty opening an unguarded path for Ruby.

Herbert Sawyer also had a very interest day as one looks closer.

The tramps in the pictures were released while the three men with arrest sheets found decades later where supposedly in the jail over the weekend.

Decker was instrumental in the release of these three men, at least according to this .

 

 

 

[Steve Thomas]

David,

I like the first sentence in the last document you provided:

"By the time Wise and his three prisoners reached Sheriff Decker's office for the second time..."

and I went, "Wait, what?"

They had these bouncing around all over the place.

Steve Thomas
 

 

[Paul Cummings]

"We were marched south along the railroad tracks, to west of the Texas School Book Depository; then across Elm street and up to the corner of Houston Street to the command post, that had been set up at to the Criminal Courts Building. We were turned over to a deputy sheriff, who called Will Fritz, a man I knew we could trust, if the reports given to me were accurate. Fritz came over from the police station, said a few word to the deputy sheriff and that we be turned over to the resident agent of the FBI, who was Gordon Shanklin."

pg 178

Chauncey Holt 

Self Protrait of a Scoundrel

Edited July 15, 2023 by Paul Cummings

[David Josephs]

On 7/15/2023 at 9:29 AM, Steve Thomas said:

David,

I like the first sentence in the last document you provided:

"By the time Wise and his three prisoners reached Sheriff Decker's office for the second time..."

and I went, "Wait, what?"

They had these bouncing around all over the place.

Steve Thomas
 

 

Steve, take note of MIDDLETON.  

Decided to just post the necessary docs to get a flavor of this duality... 2 sets of tramps. 1 photographed in DP and released by Decker, the other never photographed, potentially bogus arrest reports, and claim to be there up to 6 days.

@Paul Cummings @Joe Bauer

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by David Josephs

[Paul Cummings]

Duplicity in the JFKA? No way.

 

Garth: WAY

[David Josephs]

On 7/15/2023 at 3:12 PM, Paul Cummings said:

Duplicity in the JFKA? No way.

Replica rifle and replica paper bag...   the FBI acquired over a dozen FC 40" rifles yet not a single one from the 100 rifles supposedly sent to Kleins.  In fact, not a single one of the other 99 rifles has ever been found.  Kinda strange considering they were on ad special for almost a year.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by David Josephs

[Bill Brown]

17 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

According to "Accessories After The Fact", it was reported to be a Mauser for almost 24 hours. (I've also read that the rifle had initially been identified as a British Enfield as well.)

There's a hilarious footnote on pg. 97 of "Accessories..." that reads:

2 Gladwin Hill wrote in The New York Times of November 23, 1963 (p. 4, col. 2) that police ballistics experts were still studying the rifle, apparently with no conclusive findings, and that "Captain Fritz said it was of obscure foreign origin, possibly Italian, of about 1940 vintage, and of an unusual, undetermined caliber."

Police ballistics experts couldn't find the "Made Italy" and "Cal 6.5" printed on the rifle, yet somehow non-rifle expert Mark Lane was able to find it. Strange!

 

"Police ballistics experts couldn't find the "Made Italy" and "Cal 6.5" printed on the rifle, yet somehow non-rifle expert Mark Lane was able to find it. Strange!"

 

J.C. Day made a notation, that day, that the rifle was "Made Italy" and "Cal 6.5".

 

[Leslie Sharp]

Is anyone interested in who might have been responsible for the tramps appearance and arrest in Dealey? Would that inquiry move the investigation along beyond the decades-long debate over ballistics and forensics?

[Keyvan Shahrdar]

The President John F. Kennedy Assassination Records Collection:

• File No. 104-10385-1002: This file contains a report on the arrest of Harold Doyle, Gus Abrams, and John Gedney on November 22, 1963. The report was filed by the Dallas Police Department.
• File No. 104-10400-1003: This file contains a memorandum from the FBI to the Warren Commission on November 23, 1963. The memorandum discusses the arrest of Harold Doyle, Gus Abrams, and John Gedney.
• File No. 104-10500-1002: This file contains a report on the release of Harold Doyle, Gus Abrams, and John Gedney on November 24, 1963. The report was filed by the Dallas Police Department.

 

So, the FBI or CIA had records of the Tramps arrest on November 22, 1963.  Then the Warren Commission had records on the tramps, but that did not make the report.  The DPD found it important to notify the FBI or CIA that the tramps were released.  
Did the FBI or the CIA tell the DPD to release the tramps?  I guess we will find out when we have access to those secret archived files.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Keyvan Shahrdar

[Paul Cummings]

14 minutes ago, Leslie Sharp said:

Is anyone interested in who might have been responsible for the tramps appearance and arrest in Dealey? Would that inquiry move the investigation along beyond the decades-long debate over ballistics and forensics?

Phillip Twombly for Holt

Edited July 15, 2023 by Paul Cummings

[Leslie Sharp]

13 minutes ago, Paul Cummings said:

Phillip Twombly for Holt

Elaborate? Who might have been in direct command of Twombly?