Brian Baccus on Ruth Paine

[Pat Speer]

3 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Again, so what? Many people connected to the assassination in one way or another were not "properly" investigated by the authorities. Does that mean they were conspirators? Or even had anything useful to say? Of course it doesn't. So, I don't know what point you are trying to make.

The HSCA had limited resources, and only gained funding under the premise they were not re-investigating the case from scratch, but double-checking and adding to the scientific testimony, and pursuing new leads involving anti-Castro Cubans, the Mafia and CIA. So only a few witnesses called before the WC were asked to testify before the HSCA (such as Connally, and Marina), and this was mostly for show. Most other WC witnesses were given a pass, or were interviewed along very narrow lines. Some, like Brennan, simply refused to cooperate. So it's not surprising that Ruth, considering she had testified more than anyone for the WC, was not pursued by the HSCA. It's doubtful, even, that anyone involved had read and taken notes on her WC testimony. 

Edited November 23, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Kirk Gallaway]

11 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Well of course Ruth Paine was a CIA asset. Either she was or Linnie Mae Randle was. Because the plotters had to get the patsy into the building where the shooting was planned to take place, and those two women admitted to getting Oswald into the TSBD. This isn't rocket science.

Not only that, but the owner or manager of the building must also be a CIA asset. I'll bet the TSBD was a CIA cover.

 

Sandy has a hybrid sort of explanation for all of this and really is in neither camp, and is a little easier to talk to because he doesn't have angst of a Jim Di for example.

As I recall according to Sandy's theory. RP was so completely snowed by her CIA handlers that to this day she believes she has nothing to hide but her affiliation with the CIA and that she has always felt she has done her best for her country. The CIA was so confident of their complete snowing of RP that there was no trace of apprehension about RP being available to so many media venues over 60 years and they had no problem using her again as an asset in Nicaragua in the 80's. Tell me if I'm misstating your case, Sandy. I did spend some time addressing the flaws in your argument in I believe the Max Good film thread maybe started by Greg Doudna, but I never heard back from you. Similar to the forum in general to my earlier long post.

Some of those who hold RP in such contempt seem to have backed off from a position 10 years ago that she was actually involved directly in the assassination. What characterizes the heavily RP suspicious element is that they use innuendo and pick apart RP's responses, but always stop short of delving into what they're implicating because they know they have no certainty exactly what they're alleging. If they don't want to deal with the implausibility I delineated earlier of of Ruth being the master spy of the 20th and 21st century which their innuendos do imply. I'd simply ask them "What is Ruth Paine holding back that would be a 'smoking gun' or even a break in the case of the JFKA? What specifically are you alleging?

But let's be clear. It was Talbot's "Devil's chessboard" that delineated the connections between Dulles , Anne Bancroft and the Paine family, and Talbot  doesn't believe the Paine's were involved. . And for whatever reason, if Jim Di lobbied Stone for the a greater Paine inclusion in the film "JFK revisited", Stone refused.

Sandy :Either she was or Linnie Mae Randle was.

Yes, after all, people lose track she was the source of the employment information, right? There was sort of an unlikely set of  bedfellows of Ron and I believe it was Cotter who seemed determined to prove Linnie Mae Randall was a CIA asset. You'll have to ask them how if that ever got off the ground.

 

[Tony Krome]

12 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

I'm sorry I'm not up to being more helpful to your question.

Appreciate your response. I have seen the effort you put into your papers. At the very least, you must be wondering, with the sensational news at the time, of the possibility that Dial Ryder had fitted a scope mount to Oswald's rifle, that why didn't the FBI knock at the door of Peggie J Ryder's home, a home that affords a direct view of the corner, that the said, recently scoped rifle, had allegedly been walked past.

if I could find a person by that name living literally yards away from the Randles, and literally doors away from where Oswald was known to frequent, do you not think the FBI could have as well?

Edited November 23, 2023 by Tony Krome

[Sandy Larsen]

5 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

14 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Well of course Ruth Paine was a CIA asset. Either she was or Linnie Mae Randle was. Because the plotters had to get the patsy into the building ...

5 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

It's a Thanksgiving miracle that some people actually believe this, particularly without a literal shred of proof.

 

It's called circumstantial evidence Jonathan, something you apparently don't understand the importance of.

Fact is, circumstantial evidence is extremely important in that it allows an investigator to "connect the dots," as they say. Scientists use circumstantial evidence all the time, and in fact treat all evidence as circumstantial. They connect the dots just as we do, and call it hypothesizing.

Your denigration of those of us who connect the circumstantial dots is essentially antiscience malfeasance.

 

[Jonathan Cohen]

24 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

It's called circumstantial evidence Jonathan, something you apparently don't understand the importance of.

You can trumpet "circumstantial" evidence until you're blue in the face. It doesn't change the fact that your argument for Ruth Paine and/or Linnie Mae Randle being CIA agents is beyond weak.

24 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Your denigration of those of us who connect the circumstantial dots is essentially antiscience malfeasance.

Says the person who believes every piece of evidence in the case has been faked or altered, and believes in Lee and Marguerite Oswald doppelgangers ...

Edited November 23, 2023 by Jonathan Cohen

[Sandy Larsen]

10 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

As I recall according to Sandy's theory. RP was so completely snowed by her CIA handlers that to this day she believes she has nothing to hide but her affiliation with the CIA and that she has always felt she has done her best for her country.

 

When I said that either Ruth or Linnie Mae must have been CIA assets, I was speaking only on how to explain that the patsy was placed into the building the plotters intended him to be. When you take other facts into consideration, Ruth clearly becomes the obvious suspect for facilitating the CIA patsy role.

It's really, really, hard to get around the obvious evidence that Ruth Pain was a CIA asset, and probably an active spy at times. As a CIA asset, the only things she would be told are that communism is evil, that her work for the Agency would help protect the world from communism, and that she was a true patriot for taking on that work. Of course, she would also be told that she would need to keep her employment with the CIA and her work for the CIA secret, unless or until she was instructed otherwise. She may have been told what the penalties were for revealing secrets, though I suspect that she was merely told that those who reveal secrets were traitors.

Ruth's CIA handler would only know what he needed to know to do his job, and he would tell Ruth only what she needed to know to do hers. This practice is called compartmentalization.

So all Ruth knew was that she was to befriend Marina. She may have also been instructed to invite Marina into her house. It is certain that she worked to get Oswald into the TSBD as part of her CIA duties. (Whoever offered the job to Oswald was instructed by his handler to do so, and Oswald was instructed by his handler to take the job.)

Most likely, none of these people knew that the others were also CIA assets. (How do I know that? Because they had no need to know.) Though surely some or all of them suspected so at the time. They probably all figured it out after the assassination.

So, as far as Ruth knew -- even after the assassination --  is that Oswald was a nut who killed the president. Though at first she may have suspected the CIA was behind the assassination, since the CIA had instructed her to get Oswald a job at the TSBD. Later, when the CIA instructed her to do what she did with Oswald's Kostin/Kostikov letter, she may have come to suspect that it was actually the Russians who were behind the assassination. But she never knew for sure.

As for Linnie Mae Randle, I believe that she wasn't CIA. I believe that the FBI/WC talked her into lying, "to prevent WW3." She was a part of the cover up, not the assassination plot.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

8 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

8 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Your denigration of those of us who connect the circumstantial dots is essentially antiscience malfeasance.

8 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Says the person who believes every piece of evidence in the caae has been faked or altered, and believes in Lee and Marguerite Oswald doppelgangers ...

 

I make my case using the scientific method.

Jonathan makes his case by attacking his opponent.

 

[Max Good]

In addition to the excellent article by Brian Baccus for WhoWhatWhy, three other articles on Ruth Paine came out this anniversary.  There are even mentions of the suspicions.

The Columbus Dispatch covers Ruth and Paul Landis.
How 2 former Columbus-area natives were in middle of JFK assassination 60 years ago today
https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/local/2023/11/22/how-two-columbus-area-teens-ended-up-in-jfk-assassination-and-investigation/71595936007/

The Santa Rosa Press-Democrat (Ruth's local paper) has an article by Chris Smith, who has written several others on her over the years.
60th anniversary of JFK assassination revives troubled time for Sonoma County resident Ruth Paine, host to Lee Harvey Oswald’s wife
https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/news/60th-anniversary-of-jfk-assassination-revives-troubled-time-for-sonoma-coun/

The Epoch Times has a strange article by someone who interviewed Ruth.
60-Year Anniversary of the Assassination of JFK: Interview With Key Witness Ruth Paine
https://www.theepochtimes.com/opinion/60-year-anniversary-of-the-assassination-of-jfk-interview-with-key-witness-ruth-paine-5534452

 

[Ron Bulman]

37 minutes ago, Max Good said:

In addition to the excellent article by Brian Baccus for WhoWhatWhy, three other articles on Ruth Paine came out this anniversary.  There are even mentions of the suspicions.

The Columbus Dispatch covers Ruth and Paul Landis.
How 2 former Columbus-area natives were in middle of JFK assassination 60 years ago today
https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/local/2023/11/22/how-two-columbus-area-teens-ended-up-in-jfk-assassination-and-investigation/71595936007/

The Santa Rosa Press-Democrat (Ruth's local paper) has an article by Chris Smith, who has written several others on her over the years.
60th anniversary of JFK assassination revives troubled time for Sonoma County resident Ruth Paine, host to Lee Harvey Oswald’s wife
https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/news/60th-anniversary-of-jfk-assassination-revives-troubled-time-for-sonoma-coun/

The Epoch Times has a strange article by someone who interviewed Ruth.
60-Year Anniversary of the Assassination of JFK: Interview With Key Witness Ruth Paine
https://www.theepochtimes.com/opinion/60-year-anniversary-of-the-assassination-of-jfk-interview-with-key-witness-ruth-paine-5534452

 

Thanks Max.

[Miles Massicotte]

On 11/23/2023 at 2:13 AM, Greg Doudna said:

Ruth's reply, courteously expressed, was that she had read my two papers and that I had not succeeded in convincing her that Lee and Marina took Michael's car on a trip to a store, but she thought it commendable that I was researching and seeking truth.

Greg having read your paper I find this fascinating, because for what it is worth my own initial gut response was: I was convinced by your argument that the Irving Sports Shop encounter was not fabricated, but I wasn't personally convinced about Oswald borrowing Michael Paine's car. So Ruth Paine's own response somewhat corroborates this. I am wondering if perhaps they were brought there by a third party, but that is pure speculation. I know that Greg Parker thinks Dial Ryder fabricated the whole encounter, but I'm not as convinced about that. 

In any case, if Marina was hiding something post-assassination, as I think she was, it doesn't actually hinge on whether or not she concealed borrowing the Paine automobile. If she concealed anything at all from Ruth, for example knowing or being complicit in Lee's activities in some way (like accompanying him to a sports shop to have his scope fitted), it would be cause enough for her to feel guilty, considering how generously she was treated by the Paines, who really had nothing to gain by helping her. Unless of course you believe that Ruth was a CIA handler of some kind and was compelled to help her. Which I don't (although I know many above do)....for reasons I will outline in my Oswald paper which may or may not debut in the next fifty years...

My point for now is simply that Marina had ample reason not to want to reconnect with Ruth even if she didn't conceal the borrowing of their car.

 

[Ron Bulman]

On 11/23/2023 at 4:37 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

 

When I said that either Ruth or Linnie Mae must have been CIA assets, I was speaking only on how to explain that the patsy was placed into the building the plotters intended him to be. When you take other facts into consideration, Ruth clearly becomes the obvious suspect for facilitating the CIA patsy role.

It's really, really, hard to get around the obvious evidence that Ruth Pain was a CIA asset, and probably an active spy at times. As a CIA asset, the only things she would be told are that communism is evil, that her work for the Agency would help protect the world from communism, and that she was a true patriot for taking on that work. Of course, she would also be told that she would need to keep her employment with the CIA and her work for the CIA secret, unless or until she was instructed otherwise. She may have been told what the penalties were for revealing secrets, though I suspect that she was merely told that those who reveal secrets were traitors.

Ruth's CIA handler would only know what he needed to know to do his job, and he would tell Ruth only what she needed to know to do hers. This practice is called compartmentalization.

So all Ruth knew was that she was to befriend Marina. She may have also been instructed to invite Marina into her house. It is certain that she worked to get Oswald into the TSBD as part of her CIA duties. (Whoever offered the job to Oswald was instructed by his handler to do so, and Oswald was instructed by his handler to take the job.)

Most likely, none of these people knew that the others were also CIA assets. (How do I know that? Because they had no need to know.) Though surely some or all of them suspected so at the time. They probably all figured it out after the assassination.

So, as far as Ruth knew -- even after the assassination --  is that Oswald was a nut who killed the president. Though at first she may have suspected the CIA was behind the assassination, since the CIA had instructed her to get Oswald a job at the TSBD. Later, when the CIA instructed her to do what she did with Oswald's Kostin/Kostikov letter, she may have come to suspect that it was actually the Russians who were behind the assassination. But she never knew for sure.

As for Linnie Mae Randle, I believe that she wasn't CIA. I believe that the FBI/WC talked her into lying, "to prevent WW3." She was a part of the cover up, not the assassination plot.

 

Sandy, forum member Leslie Sharp in an essay near the end of Coup in Dallas makes an interesting case that Ruth, and Marina's behind the scene handler, not in direct contact, was FBI agent Bardwell Odum.  His actions on 11/22 beg explanation, they were, independent.  I've long wondered who beneath Dallas CIA head J. Walton Moore directed contact with Ruth after the De Mohrenschildt's left for Hati.  I've come to wonder if Odum's subordinates (?) like Hosty (?) might have done such.

What makes me wonder about Bardwell is his brother Arthur. 

"the President was looking for a person to administer a highly classified interagency intelligence sharing program . . . Arthur had served four years in the US Navy as the custodian of intelligence on Soviet nuclear capabilities . . . impressed the intelligence community in Washington with his ability to serve as intelligence liaison between the Director of the Cia, the Secretary of Defense and the White House."  I never knew that myself.

After the assassination Hoover said Odum handled the magic pristine bullet.  Odum said no, he didn't.  He never received any repercussions, as other agents did.

Odum and Oswald shared the same barber in Irving, Cliff Shasteen . . .

[Sandy Larsen]

9 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Sandy, forum member Leslie Sharp in an essay near the end of Coup in Dallas makes an interesting case that Ruth, and Marina's behind the scene handler, not in direct contact, was FBI agent Bardwell Odum.  His actions on 11/22 beg explanation, they were, independent.  I've long wondered who beneath Dallas CIA head J. Walton Moore directed contact with Ruth after the De Mohrenschildt's left for Hati.  I've come to wonder if Odum's subordinates (?) like Hosty (?) might have done such.

What makes me wonder about Bardwell is his brother Arthur. 

"the President was looking for a person to administer a highly classified interagency intelligence sharing program . . . Arthur had served four years in the US Navy as the custodian of intelligence on Soviet nuclear capabilities . . . impressed the intelligence community in Washington with his ability to serve as intelligence liaison between the Director of the Cia, the Secretary of Defense and the White House."  I never knew that myself.

After the assassination Hoover said Odum handled the magic pristine bullet.  Odum said no, he didn't.  He never received any repercussions, as other agents did.

Odum and Oswald shared the same barber in Irving, Cliff Shasteen . . .

 

I personally think that what you say is a long shot... not likely IMO.

Remember, there were CIA agents doing their routine jobs, and then there were CIA agents who were assassination plotters. Ruth's and LHO's handlers may or may not have been one and the same, but regardless they were both under control of the plotters.

And I just don't see the CIA plotters using FBI men to carry out a sophisticated assassination plan. Particularly since the plot might have been exposed by those men. I think the CIA plotters likely had favorite agents they trusted, and chose them to act as handlers for the assassination players.

But who knows.

 

[James DiEugenio]

Nice work Max.

If anything his film did not go far enough.

Let me repost something about the whole Hootkins affair, the FBI and Ruth's non denial denial.

According to Greg there is not one thing about Ruth or Michael that anyone should ever question. If you want to read a perfect example  of this, take a look at his argument with Greg Parker at ROKC over Bill Hootkins.  That one was a real doozy.  Consider what Parker does with Ruth's non denial denial in order to keep her student Hootkins away from Oswald:

"I will end with another classic RP non-denial denial - this time about the identity of the boy. 

"Mrs Paine 2515 West 5th Street, Irving, Texas advised that she has no child even as old as school age and knows of no boy of about 14 with whom Oswald was ever associated in the neighborhood."

Key phrase "in the neighborhood". Hootkins lived in Dallas, not Irving. Which is why Shasteen did not recognize him. If she had said she knew of no 14 year old with whom Oswald ever associated... it would have been a lie. "In the neighborhood" made it technically true. And that was the only reason that bit was added.

The FBI by the way, knew Ruth was tutoring Hootkins. They knew he was 14. They knew what he looked like because they interviewed his mother in his presence regarding the Russian lessons. They had Shasteen's description which was Hootkins to the nth degree. Yet with all of that, they never connected the dots? More bullshit. The FBI knew."

[Joe Bauer]

Of course Marina held secrets.

I believe she was by her own individual nature a secretive person.

And she was raised in a country and society with a very repressive political expression fear type system that was known for making such an absolutely necessary part of everyday life.

Marina's uncle Ilya Prusakov ( whom she lived with for a time ) was a colonel in the Soviet Ministry of Internal Affairs!

Even the other Dallas white Russians who had been in the US for decades but raised in the old country seemed to exhibit that same mentality.

Read Dallas White Russian Paul Gregory's memoirs about his family keeping their personal interaction history with Lee and Marina Oswald secret ... for decades!

And one can imagine the trove of secrets held by George De Mohrenschildt alone!

It's been written that keeping secrets was as much a normal Communist controlled Russian daily life thing as their love of soup, bread, potatoes, educational status and Vodka.

Marina also recounted she was quite the rebel in her teen days. Certainly she kept her wildest escapades secret from her guardians during that time.

At some point while living in Texas with Lee, Marina was secretly writing love letters to one of her old boyfriends back in Russia. Lee discovered an insufficient postage returned one and reportedly beat the crap out of her for doing so.

Marina kept secrets from Ruth Paine.

Marina kept secrets from the White Russians whom she interacted with for various reasons. Lee Oswald's physical abuse of her for one.

Marina kept secrets from her initial questioners after 11,22,1963.

Marina secretly smoked.

Marina lied, but she also had to lie. For many logical reasons.

Besides having to lie about her husband's illegal violence and weird political activities shenanigans out of self-protecting and incrimination fear she undoubtedly also lied out of humiliating shame and embarrassment.

If any young woman ever had to live through anything even remotely close to the epically crazy and unstable situation that late term pregnancy 21 and 22 year old poverty stricken Marina was going through ( and who was alone without any blood family support ) you "might" understand how confusing and humiliating it all must have been and how you ( like Marina ) might be numb about what you should say to anyone about anything.

There was only one Dallas White Russian person Marina felt relaxed enough around to confide her true deepest inner feelings to ... Jeanne Legron De Mohrenschildt. 

She really opened up to Jeanne De M.

Marina told Mrs. De M. her true feelings about Lee.

How he was an idiot. A political ideas crazy person. Spending money on dangerous toys ( his guns ) versus practical family needs.

Also how he couldn't satisfy her sexual needs. He'd rather read his books that romp with her in bed.

How he could not keep a job.

To me, Marina's shockingly candid secret personal feeling sharings about Lee to Jeanne De M revealed how extremely dissatisfied, disdainful of and just plain miserable she was with him.

Jeanne De M said she was shocked by what Marina shared with her regards Lee.

She thought Marina's sharing of such intimate details of her married life was a shameful betrayal of the sacred tenets of marriage privacy, loyalty and respect.

Jeanne DeM had a much more traditional, old school honorable view of that union.

I'm not trying to judge Marina Oswald in my post essay here.

Who am I to do so?

She had a right to be who she was. And her worst traits weren't that bad in the larger scheme of life.

She was such a young and distressed woman. Living an extremely unstable life with child and infant. Humiliatingly having to be dependent on others just to secure a roof over her babie's heads.

She did what she felt she had to do ( often on the spur of the moment starting on 11,22,1963 ) to just survive and protect herself and her children.

In my common sense life experience view, only those who have lived such an unstable rough life at that age with children ( let alone enduring through the beyond words trauma stress of her husband Lee's arrest for murder ) could begin to understand Marina's confused and scared mental and emotional state and hesitancy to be totally open about many things.

And, let me say this about Marina...she definitely came from some strong basic survival instincts stock.

Most young women with two babies and alone with no familial support would have mentally collapsed and given up after being thrust into Marina Oswald's surreally unbelievable stress situation. 

I would guess Communist Russia born and raised women of her era ( who were used to living the extremely spare material goods life ) were likely more so like Marina in that way versus those born and raised in much more economically better off and materially indulged countries.

And one last observation regards Marina's remarkable inner strength survival will and resiliency.

Imagine, through all Marina had to endure and go through in her crazy stressful life before and after Lee...then being hit on by who knows how many high position men who had drooling out-of-control lustful hots for her and shamefully and even aggressively went after her in her extremely vulnerable emotional state.

Yet, she still managed to keep it all together even through that added extra  stress of that incessant sexual pressure wolf attack.

You go girl!

 

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Jonathan Cohen]

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Ruth's and LHO's handlers may or may not have been one and the same, but regardless they were both under control of the plotters.

Total nonsense, as always .. and an embarrassment that you keep repeating this.