Our Lady of the Warren Commission: Ruth Paine by Johnny Cairns

[Cory Santos]

9 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Yeah, now I see you! Takes a little fiddling to get the right timing for you, but your dad is prominent.

Cool video. I've brushed elbows with a few local celebrities (Donny & Marie Osmond, Robert Redford) with a couple photos. But no nationally televised ones!

 

Thanks.  

[James DiEugenio]

Oh and let me add another issue Johnny brings up:

What is the ACLU about? 

And were not the Paines members?  Did not Mike take Oswald to an ACLU meeting? Did not Oswald end up joining?

So what is so outlandish about an ACLU member asking another ACLU member to contact an attorney?

Why did no one ask that question?  I think we know why since we know who Mallon is.

[Joe Bauer]

Oswald's true mental state back then is one of the biggest mysteries of the entire event.

If one is not a trained killer for hire or ordered to kill by authorities such as military and Mafia ... it takes a certain mind set to go over the line and kill someone and not in self-defense.

Killing another human being using your own hands is one of the most deeply effecting experiences any person can ever go through. Veterans of military conflict combat often have lifetime PTSD and even nightmares about killing others in battle.

A murderous mind set is explainable however in times of passion and especially enhanced by alcohol. Like Mac Wallace shooting his sexual love triangle rival Doug Kinser in broad daylight and in front of nearby witnesses.

Delusional mental illness is also a common trait of people who kill others without a rational reason. Serial killers also have deep mental illness.

But Oswald seems to have been none of the above! 

Yet, he allegedly plans and carries out a shooting of General Walker? He missed but his intent was to blow Walker's head off? He justifies this insane extreme action to his upset wife Marina by asking her if killing Hitler wouldn't have also been a good thing?

Then, again allegedly, Oswald not just kills officer Tippit but does so in an extremely brutal way. 3 body shots topped off with a coup de grace shot in his head? 3 body shots weren't enough? Mafia hit men go that far to send a message of fear to anyone else who may threaten their bosses.

The shots into JFK on Elm street were just as brutal. Sadistically brutal. Blow his head apart and into a showering cloud of bloody spray ... inches from his wife's face?

If Oswald was the shooter of JFK and Connally...he had to have been seriously mentally ill. His doing so was not just an act of extreme brutality but also an act of suicidal insanity.

He knew his position was extremely visible and exposed with fully illuminating mid-day sun light to hundreds below. He knew the booming loudness of his shots would draw attention to his location.

And he then believes he can just walk down some stairs afterwards and walk away? He has no help in escaping? He is so poor he has to use the cheapest form of transportation to get away - a city bus?  There's something so irrational there that it begs total doubt and suspicion. 

But it's the brutality of his killings that throws me. If Oswald was hate filled to the point of rage then "maybe" one can understand his blasting these three people's heads off. 

If Oswald did what he allegedly did there seems to be no other psychological explanation that fits his motives. Just pure deep rage?

 

Edited February 22 by Joe Bauer

[James DiEugenio]

Joe:

This is my point about the paradox of what the WC says:  Walker, and JFK?

The evidence says that Oswald liked Kennedy.

So in addition to the gigantic evidentiary problems in both cases, the Commission was never able to find a motive in the JFK case.  Liebeler even joked about this.

But its weird that no one asked Ruthie about that political paradox.

[Ron Bulman]

This is a very good article.  I guess that's what brought out Greg and Steve to defend Ruth.  Johnny looks at the evidence from a little different or unique perspective.  After reading it I thought not everyone has to be a historian, political science major or trained detective.  An electrician has to be intelligent to learn about current, voltage, amperage etc.  They have to pay attention to detail, if they don't want to get electrocuted.  Heck, if I remember right Peter Dale Scott is a professor emeritus in English (?) and known beyond the JFKA for poetry (?).

I've heard Oswald saying "I didn't shoot anybody", read about that and the "did you kill the President?, No sir.  But I never realized he said this or virtually the same thing five times, to five different reporters.  Seeing that fact in this perspective was enlightening for me.

Reporter. “Did you shoot the President?”
Lee Oswald. “I didn't shoot anybody, no sir.”

Reporter. “Oswald did you shoot the President?”
Lee Oswald. “I didn't shoot anybody sir I haven't been told what I am here for.”

Reporter. “Kill the President?”
Lee Oswald. “No sir I didn't. People keep asking me that.”

Reporter. “Did you kill the President?”
Lee Oswald. “No, I have not been charged with that in fact no one has said that to me yet. The first thing I heard about it was when the newspaper reporters in the hall asked me that question.”

Lee Oswald. “I don’t know what dispatches you people have been given but I emphatically deny these charges… I have not committed any acts of violence.” (see this)

I also was not aware that Oswald reportedly shook his head (back and forth?) when on the jail office floor after being shot when asked if he had anything to say by officer Combest.  I think I'd read someone tried to get him to confess.  But I thought there was no response at all.  The shaking the head is mentioned in the article, but not in Combest's Office Memorandum to Friz.  Is the shaking of the head something Combest mentioned later to someone or seen by another officer or possibly reporter?

 

[Pete Mellor]

53 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

I also was not aware that Oswald reportedly shook his head (back and forth?) when on the jail office floor after being shot when asked if he had anything to say by officer Combest.  I think I'd read someone tried to get him to confess.  But I thought there was no response at all. 

After the shot, the deputy explained to McClelland, when Oswald was on the ground, he got on his hands and knees and put his face right over Oswald’s.

“I said, ‘Son, you’re hurt real bad. Do you wanna say anything?’ ” the deputy said. “He looked at me for a second. He waited, like he was thinking. Then he shook his head back and forth just as wide as he could. Then he closed his eyes.”

[James DiEugenio]

Thanks for that Peter.

Whew, pretty strong stuff.

[Karl Kinaski]

 

  If one believe the Judyth Baker stuff, (which I do ...  like Stone, Haslam, Fetzer) to name just some, then Oswald would have had a lot to say: About a New Orleans Plot to kill Castro with a bioweapon/cancer. 

This was one reason why Oswald had to die cost it what it will. It was a Machiavellian move to kill a person for being involved in a plot to kill Castro and make him the lone nut  posterboy to cover the brutal assassination of JFK which multiple shooters involved ... 

IMO all in all Oswal's double life was too complex to put it in some last words ... If the mysterious Oliver Hardy which was the only official person who was allowed to be in the operating room to watch Oswald's last moments was indeed William King Harvey, then Oswald was closely watched by his creators till his terminal breath, as he was watched from the start, when in 1955 this Marine recruiter came to the home of Oswald's in New Orleans. 

Like the life of a boy group, IMO Lee Oswald's life was pre planned on a drawing board. 

 I wonder to which agent the thought first occurred," this boy could be a future patsy for some big thing ..." ( ... killing Kennedy or Nixon depending on the outcome of the 1960 presidential election ...)

KK

 

[James DiEugenio]

4 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

This is a very good article.  I guess that's what brought out Greg and Steve to defend Ruth.  Johnny looks at the evidence from a little different or unique perspective.  After reading it I thought not everyone has to be a historian, political science major or trained detective.  An electrician has to be intelligent to learn about current, voltage, amperage etc.  They have to pay attention to detail, if they don't want to get electrocuted.  Heck, if I remember right Peter Dale Scott is a professor emeritus in English (?) and known beyond the JFKA for poetry (?).

I've heard Oswald saying "I didn't shoot anybody", read about that and the "did you kill the President?, No sir.  But I never realized he said this or virtually the same thing five times, to five different reporters.  Seeing that fact in this perspective was enlightening for me.

Reporter. “Did you shoot the President?”
Lee Oswald. “I didn't shoot anybody, no sir.”

Reporter. “Oswald did you shoot the President?”
Lee Oswald. “I didn't shoot anybody sir I haven't been told what I am here for.”

Reporter. “Kill the President?”
Lee Oswald. “No sir I didn't. People keep asking me that.”

Reporter. “Did you kill the President?”
Lee Oswald. “No, I have not been charged with that in fact no one has said that to me yet. The first thing I heard about it was when the newspaper reporters in the hall asked me that question.”

Lee Oswald. “I don’t know what dispatches you people have been given but I emphatically deny these charges… I have not committed any acts of violence.” (see this)

I also was not aware that Oswald reportedly shook his head (back and forth?) when on the jail office floor after being shot when asked if he had anything to say by officer Combest.  I think I'd read someone tried to get him to confess.  But I thought there was no response at all.  The shaking the head is mentioned in the article, but not in Combest's Office Memorandum to Friz.  Is the shaking of the head something Combest mentioned later to someone or seen by another officer or possibly reporter?

 

Ron:

Thanks so much for this.

Johnny is a much undervalued researcher on the JFK case. He does not get the credit he deserves in my view.

His six part series on the 60th is simply excellent all the way through.

He was a contributor to a book called JFK: Case not Closed with Dave Obrien.

And now this fine work on Ruthie.  BTW, not to toot my own horn, but did anyone else cover this event?

He was there live.

[Robert Morrow]

5 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

This is a very good article.  I guess that's what brought out Greg and Steve to defend Ruth.  Johnny looks at the evidence from a little different or unique perspective.  After reading it I thought not everyone has to be a historian, political science major or trained detective.  An electrician has to be intelligent to learn about current, voltage, amperage etc.  They have to pay attention to detail, if they don't want to get electrocuted.  Heck, if I remember right Peter Dale Scott is a professor emeritus in English (?) and known beyond the JFKA for poetry (?).

I've heard Oswald saying "I didn't shoot anybody", read about that and the "did you kill the President?, No sir.  But I never realized he said this or virtually the same thing five times, to five different reporters.  Seeing that fact in this perspective was enlightening for me.

Reporter. “Did you shoot the President?”
Lee Oswald. “I didn't shoot anybody, no sir.”

Reporter. “Oswald did you shoot the President?”
Lee Oswald. “I didn't shoot anybody sir I haven't been told what I am here for.”

Reporter. “Kill the President?”
Lee Oswald. “No sir I didn't. People keep asking me that.”

Reporter. “Did you kill the President?”
Lee Oswald. “No, I have not been charged with that in fact no one has said that to me yet. The first thing I heard about it was when the newspaper reporters in the hall asked me that question.”

Lee Oswald. “I don’t know what dispatches you people have been given but I emphatically deny these charges… I have not committed any acts of violence.” (see this)

I also was not aware that Oswald reportedly shook his head (back and forth?) when on the jail office floor after being shot when asked if he had anything to say by officer Combest.  I think I'd read someone tried to get him to confess.  But I thought there was no response at all.  The shaking the head is mentioned in the article, but not in Combest's Office Memorandum to Friz.  Is the shaking of the head something Combest mentioned later to someone or seen by another officer or possibly reporter?

 

http://22november1963.org.uk/why-did-oswald-deny-shooting-jfk

 It has been possible to corroborate the gist of some of Oswald’s reported statements, but because no recordings or transcripts were made of his interrogation sessions, many of the remarks quoted here may not be verbatim:

 Oswald: “The only thing I have done is carry a pistol in a movie … I didn’t kill anybody … I haven’t shot anybody.”

(When arrested at the Texas Theatre at about 1:50pm on 22 November 1963)

I didn’t shoot Pres. John F. Kennedy or Officer J.D. Tippit.

(Interrogation at police station, 2:25 to 4:04pm, 22 November 1963; corroborated by FBI agents James Hosty and James Bookhout [Warren Report, p.613])

I didn’t shoot anyone … I never killed anybody.

(To reporters when being taken to an identification parade, 6:30pm, 22 November 1963)

I’m just a patsy.

(Recorded by Seth Kantor, a journalist, in his notebook at 7:55pm, 22 November 1963: Warren Commission Hearings, vol.20, p.366)

I don’t know anything about what you are accusing me [of].

(When having his fingerprints taken and the paraffin test on his skin, 8:55pm, 22 November 1963)

Oswald :

Nobody has told me anything except that I am accused of murdering a policeman. I know nothing more than that, and I do request someone to come forward to give me legal assistance.

Reporter :

Did you kill the president?

Oswald :

No. I have not been charged with that. In fact, nobody has said that to me yet. The first thing I heard about it was when the newspaper reporters in the hall asked me that question. … I did not do it. I did not do it. … I did not shoot anyone.

(In front of reporters, 11:20–11:25pm, 22 November 1963)

I didn’t shoot John Kennedy. … I didn’t even know Gov. John Connally had been shot. … I don’t own a rifle. … I didn’t tell Buell Wesley Frazier anything about bringing back some curtain rods. … I did carry a package to the Texas School Book Depository. I carried my lunch, a sandwich and fruit … I had nothing personal against John Kennedy.

(Interrogation in Will Fritz’s office, 10:30am–1:10pm, 23 November 1963; corroborated by FBI agent James Bookhout [Warren Report, pp.621–24] and Thomas Kelley of the Secret Service [ibid., p.627])

It’s a mistake. I’m not guilty.

(To his wife, Marina, 1:10–1:30pm, 23 November 1963)

If you ask me about the shooting of Tippit, I don’t know what you are talking about. … The only thing I am here for is because I popped a policeman on the nose in the theater on Jefferson Avenue, which I readily admit I did, because I was protecting myself. … I haven’t shot a rifle since the Marines. … American people will soon forget the president was killed, but I didn’t shoot him. … I did not kill President Kennedy or Officer Tippit. If you want me to cop out to hitting, or pleading guilty to hitting a cop in the mouth when I was arrested, yeah, I plead guilty to that. But I do deny shooting both the president and Tippit.

(Oswald’s final interview, 9:30–11:15am, 24 November 1963; corroborated by Captain Fritz of the Dallas police [ibid., p.609] and Postal Inspector Harry Holmes [ibid., p.633])

[Robert Morrow]

9 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Joe:

This is my point about the paradox of what the WC says:  Walker, and JFK?

The evidence says that Oswald liked Kennedy.

So in addition to the gigantic evidentiary problems in both cases, the Commission was never able to find a motive in the JFK case.  Liebeler even joked about this.

But its weird that no one asked Ruthie about that political paradox.

FUN FACT: Completely innocent CIA patsy Lee Harvey Oswald considered JFK to be "the best president of his lifetime." Source: Michael Paine: https://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/8118362-181/michael-paine-debated-politics-with

QUOTE

“I expressed my appreciation of President Kennedy and he didn’t ever argue with me on that point,” Paine said in an interview.

In a 2013 essay he titled, “My Experience with Lee Harvey Oswald,” Paine recalled that Oswald once declared emphatically that “change only comes through violence.”

“I’d also heard him say that President Kennedy was the best president he had in his lifetime. Looking back on what happened, these two statements seem impossibly contradictory … how could a man want to kill a president whom he thought was the best president he’d had in his lifetime?”

UNQUOTE

[Cory Santos]

So Michael knew Lee had a rifle and pistol but somehow Ruth did not.  Uhhh, ok.   Sure.  She always was not in the know conveniently.    

[Karl Kinaski]

I know this forum has buried Judyth Baker despite the fact that many men came here to defend her.  Jim DiEugenio seems the main undertaker. It was him who convinced Oliver Stone not to put her story into his Docu- movie.  I would like to know what DiEugenio's arguments were to portray Judyth Baker as a psycho... maybe he can provide some smalltalk he did with Stone about Judyth Baker ...  

 

KK

 

Edited February 23 by Karl Kinaski

[Karl Kinaski]

No?

[Joe Bauer]

Ruth simply hated Lee Oswald imo. 

For many reasons. 

I believe much of this hatred was born early on after she observed what she felt was boorish mistreatment of Marina by Lee from the first days she encountered Marina and Lee, all the way through to his end.

Ruth seemed to develop an infatuation with Marina. From the first day she met her. Marina was Russian born and raised. Ruth was always interested in Russia. Their culture and their language.

Marina was young and very pretty. She had a soft feminine demureness in her manner. Also a vulnerability obviously being so young and in a new strange land and not speaking the language very well. Her sparkling blue eyes ( big and wide set ) were simply alluring and also shown an innate intelligence. Everyone who met Marina felt an immediate physical attraction toward her. Why wouldn't Ruth?

In the course of Ruth's year and a half long, off and on contact with Marina and Lee, I believe she also developed a growing protectiveness toward Marina. 

She'd see Marina and Lee living in some of the lowest standards of housing. At one point after a long summer vacation trip with her children she stopped to see Marina while pregnant Marina and Lee and Junie were living in a rundown apartment in New Orleans. She spent the night there but had to buy roach repellant and spray it in a big circle on the floor around where she and her two children slept.

She observed that Marina was getting no prenatal health care, her teeth were rotting out and she made the offer to Marina to escape that neglectful situation and come live with her until the baby arrived.

From there we know much. 

Including Ruth's growing dislike of Lee.

I believe she found Lee to be boorish, arrogant and at times chauvinistically controlling of Marina. Yet at the same time seeing him as a no-count cad unable to responsibly take care of his wife and children which she took on.

She was civil toward Lee obviously. Allowed him to even stay at her house to spend time with Marina and his little girl Junie. Over-all Ruth deserves credit for all she did for Marina and Junie and her tolerance of Lee.

Personally however, she despised Lee.

He was unappreciative. Disrespectful in the most egregious way..." he ( Lee ) used my typewriter without asking!" "And that offended me greatly."

I think that in some way Ruth felt that Lee's demise freed Marina from a possible continuous miserable life if Marina gave into Lee's pressuring and went back to him.

Ruth Paine is an intriguing person. Her and her husband came from wealthy and seriously politically engaged lineage. That story alone makes her and her husband stand out in the realm of curious interest.

I think Ruth felt an emotional, even smitten loss when Marina was taken away and chose not to stay close to her at all...forever.

 

Edited March 14 by Joe Bauer