A sick society?

[Robert Harper]

7 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

funny little bit about Mort Sahl.

Joe and Paul--I enjoyed your accounts of being around Sahl over a 50 year period. I think you have an understanding of what it takes to be a performer, unlike a fly-by commentator, who found it important to post a pompous ("no stand-up young or old") inaccurate ("is going to perform someone else's work") and a bit foolish ("except Denis Leary"). However, what most offended I think, was that the comment itself was so unnecessary.

Aside from wondering from where such authority to pontificate emanated, I also wondered why it was important enough to place it literally minutes  after  my comment. Why the big hurry to say nothing? In an earlier thread, a reference to the Bay of Pigs generated 4 pages of juvenalia presented like a school child and diverting the discussion.

As you both know I'm sure, there is a long tradition of experimentation in all forms of culture. Narratives survived because people memorized them and passed them on, adding and subtracting along the way. For over 20 years, I worked with at risk kids at the Laugh Factory Comedy Camp in Hollywood (Tiffany Haddish was then just starting to work on material about being in a foster home) and during one season, guided 5 teens to 'perform someone else's work' when they performed a Shakespeare sonnet on stage. I have spoken privately with Forum members about my interest in transcripts, and having them "performed" by people other than those who originally delivered them, in an attempt to upset expectations. I think a young women performing printed material of Richard Pryor might be instructive to audience and performer; I think the same of having a young man deliver some of George Carlin's lines . Nobody wants to "copy" the schtick or "gimmicks"of a stand-up, but re-interpreting clever worded material is another venture all together. I don't doubt that in 17th century Leipzig, there were those who thought it inconceivable that one "young or old" would perform Bach's Goldberg Variations on a guitar. Or on a synthesizer.

 

[Ron Ecker]

12 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

BTW was Mary Tyler Moore in that one as the phone girl, or was it after she was fired for asking for  ten dollar raise?

I remember my mom telling me (she read it or heard it somewhere) that James Arness worked on Gunsmoke for twenty dollars a week.

I also remember my dad telling me (he read it or heard it somewhere) that that nut Lee Harvey Oswald was often seen walking backwards. (Now that I can believe!)

EDIT: There's my failing memory again. I remember now she said forty dollars a week.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 29, 2018 by Ron Ecker

[Steve Thomas]

And yet, I remain optimistic.

 

Speaking as as old white man, I think the days of the old white men are numbered. It may take 20 years, but I look at the million women march (I don't know exactly what to call it, but I look at the sea of pink hats), and the kids marching on Washington to change our gun laws - kids mind you.

 

God help us if they ever get together - or rather... 

please God help us.

 

Steve Thomas

 

[Robert Harper]

18 hours ago, David Andrews said:

All this public passivity came out of failure to oppose the culture of assassination, or to even acknowledge it.  The same psychology operated over the decades, and the failure to rise then is the same as the failure to rise now.  

David--a very succinct, right-on-the- button appraisal. I think DiEugenio and Pease started to reach people 20 years ago focusing on the impact of these "assassinations" in a 5 year period. All men with huge followings; all devoted to an embrace of a world without unnecessary violence; all intelligent beyond the norm, and all deprived of reaching the age of 47. Additionally of course , 2 were Irish-Catholic and the other was a Baptist Minister. And - in the language of 1965 -  a Negro. 

In a country founded by White Anglo-Saxon Protestants, who occupied the White House for the first 175 years of the "American Experiment" these three were different. 

There is a  wistfulness filtering through this thread so far, which reflects that understanding. But one thing I believe to the core is that David's connection of subsequent passivity with the killings, and such is still an undiscovered country.

Edited May 29, 2018 by Robert Harper

[Paul Brancato]

6 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

And yet, I remain optimistic.

 

Speaking as as old white man, I think the days of the old white men are numbered. It may take 20 years, but I look at the million women march (I don't know exactly what to call it, but I look at the sea of pink hats), and the kids marching on Washington to change our gun laws - kids mind you.

 

God help us if they ever get together - or rather... 

please God help us.

 

Steve Thomas

 

I’m really pulling for empowerment of women. It’s a sea change. I don’t think the Koch brothers saw this coming. Two red states are approaching blue, and they are not in the industrial heartland but in the south - Texas and Georgia. 

[Joe Bauer]

16 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Can  you link to that one?

BTW was Mary Tyler Moore in that one as the phone girl, or was it after she was fired for asking for  ten dollar raise?

 

 

 

 

 

Richard Diamond S03E01 The Sport ( aka “The Larry Forsythe Case")

Jim, here is a link to the Richard Diamond/Mort Sahl TV episode on You Tube.

The Mort Sahl record breaking incident is about 18 minutes in.

Since you asked, there is a short scene with Mary Tyler Moore as "Sam" Diamond's business telephone operator. Unlike so many other Moore appearances in these episodes, in this one you can actually see just enough profile outline of Moore's face to recognize her.

A young Barbara Bain also plays a role in this episode. 

After just viewing this episode myself, I noticed two minor errors in my recounting. One was Tony Gino ( played by actor Ross Martin ) saying Mort Sahl's record was "really funny" versus "a gas." The other was Martin not pulling a gun after Diamond smashed his Sahl record.  But he did immediately become outraged and threatening toward Diamond.

I edited my original post to correct these

This episode is from February, 1959.

Edited May 29, 2018 by Joe Bauer

[James DiEugenio]

Joe:

 

Where is the link?

[Ray Mitcham]

21 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Joe:

 

Where is the link?

Here you go, Jim..

 

[Joe Bauer]

18 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Joe:

 

Where is the link?

25:37

 

 

Richard Diamond S03E01 The Sport ( aka “The Larry Forsythe Case")

 

Media Mix

•

6K views1 year ago

I thought the above text was the link. Not sure how to do this.

Maybe clicking on the picture of the newspaper will take you there?

 

3.01 [35] Richard Diamond: THE SPORT ( aka “The Larry Forsythe Case”) 15Feb59 written by Richard Carr directed by Alvin ...

[James DiEugenio]

Mort Sahl was really big back then.  I mean when you can show him doing his act as part of the show?

He was a co host of the Academy Awards back then also.

How can you not admire someone like that?  Throws it all away for something he believes in. 

Edited May 29, 2018 by James DiEugenio

[Ray Mitcham]

2 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

25:37

 

 

Richard Diamond S03E01 The Sport ( aka “The Larry Forsythe Case")

 

Media Mix

•

6K views1 year ago

I thought the above text was the link. Not sure how to do this.

Maybe clicking on the picture of the newspaper will take you there?

 

3.01 [35] Richard Diamond: THE SPORT ( aka “The Larry Forsythe Case”) 15Feb59 written by Richard Carr directed by Alvin ...

Joe, just copy the address at the top of the Youtube page and post it here.

[Ron Bulman]

I don't remember the sick society in in 63.  Just my own youth and naivety .  Beatle wigs in the department store, Dad; How could anybody wear their hair that long?  Blessfully  ignorant I knew nothing about the heathens in society.

 https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=beatles+1963&view=detail&mid=9B051D7180360AFBBE299B051D7180360AFBBE29&FORM=VIRE

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=rolling+stones+1963&qpvt=rolling+stones+1963&view=detail&mid=CBAE331532311801757BCBAE331532311801757B&&FORM=VRDGAR

 

 

[Ron Ecker]

4 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

I don't remember the sick society in in 63.  Just my own youth and naivety .

I was naive too, I didn't question the government. As for the "sick society," it took three assassinations for some people to come to that supposed realization.

I remember that after the third assassination (RFK), Johnny Carson suspended his usual format one night for a group discussion. The subject was basically "are we a sick society or what?" The only comment I remember from the discussion was by the comedian Alan King, who said that he was through telling jokes.

I also remember that right after the RFK assassination, Marlon Brando appeared as a guest on the Joey Bishop Show. Soon after the interview began, Brando startled Bishop by taking out a pistol and pointing at him. Bishop said desperately, "Marlon,  I think you're the greatest actor who has ever lived." The point being made by Brando was that we need to get rid of guns. Just too many lone nuts around.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 31, 2018 by Ron Ecker

[Joe Bauer]

3 hours ago, Ron Ecker said:

I was naive too, I didn't question the government. As for the "sick society," it took three assassinations for some people to come to that supposed realization.

Ron, exactly. After witnessing the whacking of JFK, MLK AND RFK in just 5 years, a rational half -way thinking American citizen couldn't help but sense things weren't what they seemed in the highest realms of power in our country. These murders of our most popular leaders in that short 5 year time period shook up the majority of our adult citizens much more than has been acknowledged in our main stream media and history books. There was serious and valid suspicion created that never truly left the minds of that generation. Those that ascended to the highest rungs of political power in this country during and right after these assassination also carried that air of suspicion.  LBJ, Nixon, Hoover, etc.

We sensed much more corruption in the highest levels of government than before JFK.

A valid argument could be made that with the killings of JFK, MLK and RFK that we had truly descended into a Banana Republic era where our leaders were determined more by bullets than by ballots. And the real governing power in this country was much more outside of the constitutional electoral realm than we ever imagined.

I remember that after the third assassination (RFK), Johnny Carson suspended his usual format one night for a group discussion. The subject was basically "are we a sick society or what?" The only comment I remember from the discussion was by the comedian Alan King, who said that he was through telling jokes.

I also remember that right after the RFK assassination, Marlon Brando appeared as a guest on the Joey Bishop Show. Soon after the interview began, Brando startled Bishop by taking out a pistol and pointing at him. Bishop said desperately, "Marlon,  I think you're the greatest actor who has ever lived." The point being made by Brando was that we need to get rid of guns. Just too many lone nuts around.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 31, 2018 by Joe Bauer

[Kirk Gallaway]

On 5/28/2018 at 12:15 PM, David Andrews said:

Over the past several presidential administrations (Democrat and Republican) and through the many congressional sessions since the Reagan years, American workers have lost rights that they fought for since the 1870s and into the Depression, and lost privileges afforded them in the optimistic remaking of the working world after WW II.  And no one is rebelling against this or demanding any restorative measures. 

Couple that with the immense powers given to the corporate world, especially to banking, insurance and mortgage lenders (down to Trump's relaxation of banking regulations last week), and the individual worker is now powerless in our society.  No one will mount any effective protests.  No persons will engage in collective action, such as general strikes, to ensure the rights and empowerment of all.  Common beat cops take their cues from militarized police forces and quash all dissent, down to misdemeanor level, with brute force,* and answer for it later, if at all.

All this public passivity came out of failure to oppose the culture of assassination, or to even acknowledge it.  The same psychology operated over the decades, and the failure to rise then is the same as the failure to rise now.  

It is no longer worth being a working person in America - and we are all workers.  It is no longer worth being an investor, nor the owner of a retirement account or a mortgage.  Below a certain level of financial security, it is no longer worth being a citizen.  Our rights, duties and privileges can be cut off at any time, by fiat.

If we had any sense, our retirement accounts and mortgages would, by established law, be put under control and protection of the federal government, and not in the hands of private entities licensed to steal and cheat.

(*) http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/2-nj-police-officers-reassigned-investigation-launched-in-case-of-woman-punched-on-beach-by-police/ar-AAxVkxV?li=BBnb7Kz

Dave, It's certainly shouldn't be any surprise to anyone  whose read anything I've written here in the forum,concerning the nature of the current problem facing us, that I think what you've written is spot on here. After the assassinations there was a  disillusionment about the assassinations and the Viet Nam War, and people  came to distrust authority.

  I remember in a thread here about Ken Burns PBS  documentary "Vietnam", that I didn't mention this because I wanted to be sensitive to people here who had served, and I wanted to respect that there were still  deep seated divisions about that war. But I see myself at odds with a lot of the say, general powerlessness and gloomy projections made here, because I have been witness to and a small part of a movement that grinded the American War machine to a halt. That is, the Anti-Viet Nam War Movement stopped the Vietnam War, and grinded the American War Machine to a halt, or temporarily thwarted their course of action. I don't think the fact that a lot of average Americans  saw their kids or their neighbor's kids come home in body bags really was any deciding factor. I think the incidents were still rare enough that they wouldn't really even moved the needle much in public opinion, but when you add the number of families that were ideologically torn apart from the Viet Nam War, families who may or may have not suffered any direct tragedies. There were  many  patriots, some  who had served in WWll who turned the corner and  started to ask, if all this killing abroad and domestic strife at home was really any  longer worth it. It involved a radical rethinking of some of the major premises of the Cold War, and the questioning of a long held perception of American invincibility, which was cathartic and painful.

All this public passivity came out of failure to oppose the culture of assassination, or to even acknowledge it.  The same psychology operated over the decades, and the failure to rise then is the same as the failure to rise now.  

Re: public passivity: I don't think there is any shortage of people questioning authority now, many are just striking out blindly, some of their psychosis involves adapting conspiracy theories, some well directed, and some that aren't. There is definitely a "dummying down' of the public at large over the last 30 years. The real problem (which honestly I see evidenced here as well) is that they don't know the true nature of the real problems, or in the case of the public at large, are taken in by very surface arguments propagated by their ideological enemies or worse yet, false leaders.

As a person who perhaps romanticizes  the success of the anti war movement. Where I do agree with the sentiments shared above is that    I've  looked every decade for the slightest glimmer of a movement that would end the apathy of the last 45 years. Though I see these little "head fakes" that have been propping up a bit more recently. Over the years, I've been very disappointed.

But I don't see this at all as being the product of the 3 assassinations of the 60's, though at one time, I can say that was very real. The average age of America is 37 years old, born 17 years after the assassination. It just isn't sufficiently on the average person's  mind. Though I think the Kennedy's now coming out of their shell, certainly helps. It does make you wonder where they've been for 50 years. I think  doing it many years ago would have made a real difference.

Outside of a completely polarizing event, I've come to see it as demographics. The ultimate conditions for change are when a baby boom comes of  age in a very affluent society. I feel privileged that I was able to be part of a group of people who were coming of age during the apex of perhaps the greatest civilization in the history of our planet. I hold a lot of hope that the new generation of millenials  will have the courage to as Bobby said, "Dream of things that never were, and ask, why not?" Some people think they could f-ck things up real badly, but they were saying the same things about us too, and eventually we did f-ck things up really badly. But there is that first push that is honest and innocent and has nothing to lose. And there are lot of movements that came into being in the 60's, that now no one can deny are worthwhile, or are even ultimately critical to our survival to now understand. And the status quo now is definitely not going to cut it. But it can be helped if there are some elders there to give guidance.