Pete Mellor

Have Vols 1-3 and been eagerly awaiting Vols 4-5. Good to hear the next instalment is on the way.

I'm fine Paul. 😀 Sure, the funeral home FBI inky hands stuff is another weird episode!

Paul, the Livingston/Savage book states Sunday night, no time given. It doesn't say 'middle of the night'. Could have been Sunday evening. The pics and prints were taken post autopsy, but prior to Oswald being prepared for burial. Livingston describes this as a routine assignment for the Crime Lab. It's written in the book that this procedure was "the chain of evidence to verify the fact that the Oswald killed by Jack Ruby and buried in Fort Worth was the same Oswald who was in police custody charged with the murder of two people." Yeah I know, with the multitude of chain of custody anomalies in this case, they have to legally prove that Oswald was dead!

Thanks for that Pat. In 'JFK First Day Evidence' the Scalice info is just an author's note at the end of the chapter. It states, "Although the trigger-housing fingerprints were extremely faint and barely distinguishable and partially distorted a positive identification of LHO was made by Scalice. I think you & Jim D have shot this down in flames.

Actually, Livingston & J.B. Hicks took Oswald's photograph and fingerprints in the Parkland morgue on Sunday night 24th. These prints from the morgue were checked against the print card of Oswald's prints taken the previous Friday by the DPD Identification Bureau. Apparently normal police procedure. Also in 1992, Savage obtained another photograph of Oswald's prints from HSCA Exhibit F-400 of prints taken in New Orleans August 9th, 1963.

Yeah, don't we just love tech. Fortunately I know a cheap source of NTSC to U.K.'s PAL converters.

Sandy/Paul, recall my post was questioning if Fritz's non use of a stenographer or tape recording of Oswald's interrogations were unusual and suspicious. I stated that I thought it was the norm in Fritz's Homicide Dept. I then wrote that DPD must have considered the case against Oswald for the assassination to be a 'cinch' after they found the Carcano and then lifted prints off the weapon early Friday evening. The prints info I am taking from Savage's 'JFK First Day Evidence' Chapter IV 'The Prints'. According to Crime lab detective R.W. Livingston, Day lifted the right middle & ring finger dabs from the trigger housing. These prints were also checked by detective Pete Barnes on that Friday evening. Day also states in the book that Curry was told of the prints but Day had not yet had a chance to do a comparison check with Oswald's print card. Curry then went down to the 3rd floor and told newsmen that they had a print on the rifle. It was after this that Day found the palm print under the barrel. All prior to the rifle being taken to D.C. Livingston & Savage have copies of the photographs taken in the crime lab of these prints which are of very good quality 5" x 7". In 1992 they had these prints examined by a qualified fingerprint expert from the West Monroe Police Dept., Crime Lab. Also the tv prog 'Frontline' examined the prints, done by Vincent J. Scalice a certified latent print examiner who was used by the HSCA in 1978. Both tests declared that they were the prints of LHO. Anyway, just reporting what is in 'JFK First Day Evidence'. If you guys can shoot this down, fine. I'm just the messenger.

Paul, It does seem that History shows that DPD could not be trusted (along with the D.A.'s office) to run a fair interrogation. Yet I am sure that I have at some point come across a statement from Fritz, that it was the norm his Homicide Dept., did not use a stenographer or any recording of interviews of suspects. We know Ruby's assassination of the accused assassin was on t.v., so, an open and shut case, but again, there is no record of any verbatim interview on Ruby's actions that I am aware of on Sunday 24th. In Oswald's case, the DPD had the Carcano with Oswald's palm and finger prints by Friday evening so maybe considered, however reprehensible, that the case was a cinch and no requirement for a stenographer or to go out shopping for a tape recorder....much to our frustration today. Just another murder case that certainly good ole boy Henry would obtain the death penalty.

Jim, many thanks for chasing that up. I think it should be worth waiting for!

Jim, JFK Revisited-The Complete Collection is showing on Amazon U.K. as temporarily out of stock. Any idea when this situation will change?

Richard, Not exactly what you are looking for, but, in 'High Treason' p249 there is a paragraph about Oswald and links to ONI quoted from Steve Parks in the Baltimore Sunday Sun, November 21st, 1976. Also p298 quotes Marchetti's 'The CIA & the Cult of Intelligence' suggests that the CIA had thought about taking a limited hang-out and was willing to concede that CIA agents may have been involved in an assassination plot against the late President. CIA executives were admitting that a renegade band of agents acting on their own may have made the hit. (from Gallery July 1979.) 'High Treason' p283-284 states Bernard Fensterwald was the lawyer for Marianne Paisley, whose husband, John Arthur Paisley, an executive in the CIA, was apparently murdered while sailing his boat, the Brilig, on Chesapeake Bay.....Fensterwald was Paisley's next door neighbour, and Paisley knew plenty. I suspect that the above is already info that you are aware of.....but posted just in case + the Baltimore Sunday Sun quote is 1976 and maybe worth another trawl.

Yes, I agree with the above posters, this Minox info is very interesting. However, the nagging question is, was LHO a spy in the Soviet Union? When & where did LHO obtain the camera (if he did) & was it used in Russia? The DPD claim that the Minox was found at the Paine garage and found in Oswald's sea bag. Yet, as with most aspects of this case, where one item points in one direction, there are other facets that then point in the opposite way. While in Minsk Pavel Golovachev states that he didn't think that Oswald was a spy. He said that in Minsk he bought a very basic camera, a Smena-2, "which even a Soviet schoolchild could use, but he couldn't." Doesn't sound like a James Bond to me. If Lee had the Minox in Russia, why buy this cheap Smena-p2? The Soviet intelligence agencies viewed Oswald as "a very simple or primitive guy, not a very interesting person." They determined that Oswald was not working for U.S. intelligence. KGB wondered if he could be a programmed 'sleeper agent', so they had agents watch him, had his apartment bugged, his phone tapped and took many surveillance photos of him. Even if Angleton's CI/SIG were using Oswald as a dangle at Langley, he certainly wasn't an active CIA agent. Many have pointed to the suspicious easy treatment given to Oswald on his return to the U.S. No legal action against his defection. State financial assistance for his journey home. No known intelligence agency interview on his arrival on American soil. The H.S.C.A. also found this suspicious, until they checked and found that analysis of over twenty American defectors, what Oswald experienced was just not unusual or strange. Surprisingly, that was the way the American government dealt with all defectors!

Cheers Ed. I call Mr Kamp the 'sorcerer's apprentice'. He came into D.P.U.K. just as the late great Ian Griggs' health was faltering, and has since done a tremendous amount of work with Malcolm Blunt's vast amount of files etc., it's like he does a full time job on this research. I have previously read some of this work, but will catch up on (3) & (4).

Agree George. I've always wondered why a simple smell test on the end of the rifle wasn't done. If it was I have never come across any statement of that. I suppose they found the Carcano & two and two made four.

Chris, Most folk would agree with you on your comment above. I've had similar doubts myself for a long time. Things don't add up do they. Yet, if memory serves me , I'm recalling a statement made by John Witten, I think was to the HSCA about Jim Angleton. He stated that Angleton was a very secretive guy, that CIA couldn't cope with him, that he had influence on the Warren Commission as well as J. Edgar Hoover, AND Angleton had Mafia ties & would never double cross the mob!! I do not doubt that CIA manipulated LHO & could be the main operatives to provide the 'patsy' in concert with Cosa Nostra, all with the agencies plausible deniability. All I'm saying is that mostly, after sixty years, the only solid proof of Dallas that we have, is the involvement of criminal elements, through the evidence against Jack Ruby. & while we're at it, the RFK assassination was handled after the event by Manuel Pena who was involved in CIA's 'Department of Dirty Tricks' featuring assassination techniques. How ironic that Pena was in charge of evidence for 'Special Unit Senator'. The other side of the Ambassador hit was stiff with organised crime elements. Were these two killings done by the real 'secret team'?

Welcome Charles! I certainly don't consider myself a researcher either, but like you, read & collect many assassination books, much to my better half's dismay! The bookshelves are full and books are now getting stacked on the floor. I concur with Joe's comments about the Ed Forum too. I'm from U.K. and a member of 'Dealey Plaza U.K.' which welcomes U.S. members. All soldiers in the same army.

It remains a very interesting question, did Jack Ruby know Lee Oswald prior to the assassination of JFK? There is a Forum thread here that asks this very question:-educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/25402-did-jack-ruby-know-lee-harvey-oswald. Jim Hargrove posted on that thread with a very extensive list of testimonies of people who stated that Ruby & Oswald did know each other. In the summer of 1963 Dorothy Marcum was dating Ruby and her aunt worked for Ruby. Dorothy told the FBI that LEE Oswald worked for Ruby during June and July and the two men definitely knew each other. Ruby was interviewing Francis Irene Hise for a job as a waitress when a young man entered the Carousel Club and Ruby said “Hi, Ozzie” to the young man. After she was hired Miss Hise served drinks to “Ozzie," whom she recognized after the assassination as LHO. Another employee, Clyde Malcolm Limbough, worked for Ruby three years and saw Oswald in Ruby's office on several occasions. Helen Kay Smith (“Pixie Lynn”), who worked at the Carousel, told the Dallas Police that she saw Ruby and Oswald together on several occasions. Other employees of Ruby who saw Oswald in the Carousel Club were William Crowe, Wally Weston, Dixie Lynn, and Kathy Kay. Robert Roy was Ruby's auto mechanic and said that Oswald used to drop off Ruby's car for repairs. Journalist Dorothy Kilgallen wrote in the New York Journal American (June 6, 1964): “It is known that 10 persons have signed sworn depositions to the Warren Commission that they knew Oswald and Ruby to have been acquainted.” The list of witnesses to this link is fairly long and may also include Dallas attorney Caroll Jarnagin, Rose Cheramie and Beverley Oliver. The truth behind Ruby's attendance at Parkland, where he spoke to journalist Seth Kantor, which Ruby lied about, is another mystery. However we know that following his Friday afternoon visit to the hospital, Ruby was inside the D.P.D. building. We know that late Friday, Ruby, playing the part of a reporter attended the press conference of Oswald held in the basement assembly room. A Ruby/Oswald connection was strongly hinted at when D.A. Henry Wade was giving the press some details on Oswald. He told reporters that Oswald belonged to the Free Cuba Committee, only for Ruby to correct Wade by informing that it was the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. I find it strange that Ruby knew this detail of information about Oswald. Yet, Ruby was stalking around the building a lot earlier than the Friday midnight press briefing. He was around the 3rd floor homicide offices, witnessed there by Dallas detectives. It is also recounted that Ruby was stopped at one point when trying to enter these offices. After what occurred on Sunday morning in the D.P.D. basement it can be believed that Ruby was stalking Oswald on that Friday evening. What is little known is that the D.P.D. had two jail areas in the building. One on the 4th floor and another on the 5th. Dallas detective H.R. Williams reported seeing Ruby on the 4th floor on Friday evening, reportedly there to visit someone in the jail! Williams recalls Ruby coming to the 4th floor jail to visit someone he assumed were his employees picked up on one thing or another. I know of no Carousel employee being detained by the police on that Friday night. A strong suspicion that Ruby was moving in to snuff out Oswald, even in his jail cell!

Joseph, I have long had doubts about the rifle and handgun ownership issues myself, but I believer a defence attorney would be hard pressed when confronted with the Dallas Crime lab evidence obtained on the 22nd., that they lifted a right palm print from the underside of the gun barrel and a couple of fingerprints from the trigger and magazine housing. These prints were identified as belonging to Oswald. As well as Lieutenant Day who lifted and compared the prints, Crime Lab detective Livingstone and Crime Lab detective Pete Barnes also checked and confirmed the match.

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So does the presidency, the FBI, the Military etc. However, back in '63 Joe Public was totally unaware of the Cuba/CIA/Mafia links. Were these links reasons for silence? As Hoffa stated after the assassination , "RFK is just another lawyer now." Yes, many factions had motivations to see the back of JFK, but the ONLY proof that exists of a faction that stated its intentions in this direction were Mafia. Trafficante in '62 declared that JFK would be hit before the '64 election. Also in '62 Marcello was reported to be plotting against JFK, and 'having an outsider to do the job so that his lieutenants would not be implicated'. Again, Hoffa had a plan for a lone gunman firing on a convertible in a Southern city. Johnny Roselli informed the Senate that Ruby was "one of our boys" and had been delegated to silence Oswald. So, if Oswald had to be silenced, I wonder what his role was and what he knew. The DPD maintain that his fingerprints were on the snipers nest boxes and the Carcano. Lets face it, armed with these snippets of solid leads in a murder case, where would any investigative agency direct their probe? Same can be stated in relation to the RFK assassination. In both cases the official investigations were so apathetic, some would say corrupt, that a purge was the very least of the Mafia concerns. As I have posted above, I cannot discount the likes of CIA or FBI having some ties with these plots, either witting or knowledge through the grapevine, but we only have suspicions and no solid courtroom proof of involvement in Dallas or L.A., which can't be said of organised crime.

Sandy, My working theory for many years has been that the CIA did it. And so far I haven't seen any flaws in the theory. I am therefore always surprised to learn of someone who is on he fence or a disbeliever in the theory. Actually, that has been my predominant speculation behind Dallas too. However, what I was highlighting in Gil's thread is the fact that the only solid proof of involvement comes with Ruby, and that leads to the mob. I also think that the Mafia style killings of Roselli and Giancana were further indicators of their involvement. Were there even any mob/Secret Service links? Interesting question! I think that is one for Vince. (Actually his birthday today!) I could ask also, were there any CIA/Secret Service links?

Sandy, sure, I have to concur. If there were no flaws in our theories we would have had this case cracked many decades ago. Some declare that LBJ was the mastermind behind things, others think he had some prior knowledge of events, & it appears he did tell some porkies about Dealey Plaza with Youngblood. But hey, he wouldn't be the only president to cover for the mob. Tricky Dicky was in deep, as was cowboy Reagan. Very soon after the assassination Johnson was in communication with friend and neighbour J. Edgar, yet another high ranker with many years of ties and obligations to Mafia. CIA, FBI and Warren all trod very carefully to completely ignore organised crime. Another provable Cosa Nostra link to Dallas is Eugene Hale Brading who was discovered in the Dal Tex, with a false i.d. & blatant lies about his reasons for being there. (Wasn't he also in L.A. for RFK's killing?) I'm going back on my fence with regard to Mexico City. I'm certainly not proposing that American intelligence had clean hands in this murder, even FBI could have been accessories after the fact. The sad facts are that too many politicians, federal entities, big money, union power and intelligence agencies all worked alongside, with and for criminal enterprise. Aint that been the way of the world throughout history.

Agree Joe, she certainly seems to have been 'the woman who knew too much'. AND continuing the mob associations, I believe one of the suspects behind her killing, if I recall correctly, had Mafia links, I believe had connections to Sam Giancana, whose many operatives had contacts with Jack Ruby in the months leading up to Nov. '63, just to complete the circle. & as for making an A list movie, once again, we know who has their fingers in Hollywood.

Gil, I must be the most dedicated fence sitter on this Forum. It is somewhat uncomfortable, being of the picket variety. I always read your posts with interest too. However, I cling to factual truths that I could present in a court of law and in your 'Introduction' post you ignore one mighty faction that vehemently opposed JFK as president. Who was behind the gun(s) of Dealey Plaza? CIA, Texan oil, Cubans, Military, Right wing fanatics etc etc? I feel that the only courtroom solid proof of who was involved was played out in the DPD basement on the Sunday morning by Jack Ruby. I can't see any argument that Ruby was not organised crime. His history, his associates, his travels, his phone records, his lies after his rubbing out of Oswald. Whatever Oswald was prior to 22nd Nov to any government agency, the suspicion is that he knew some information about the Dallas action....or why Ruby? I reckon Kilgallen was along these lines when she announced that she would blow the case wide open, prior to being rubbed out herself. Sure, many will say that if the assassination was purely a mob hit, why the apparent Secret Service set-up. There are also the false defector links to Langley. But, CIA and Mafia had many years of links prior to JFK's killing. The mob needed the Attorney General's assault on the underworld's empire stopped, and that meant JFK's demise. Also mentioned in your post is RFK's assassination. A case can easily be made that organised crime was behind this assassination, for obvious reasons. Mafia was all over Sirhan as well as Cesar and even the Ambassador Hotel. In both cases a very effective cover-up was undertaken by government agencies and I can think of quite a few reasons for that to happen.