Pete Mellor

I reckon that's the idea. Jack Jones' book is a waste of paper.

Who was driving Lennon that night remains a mystery. However, I've read that the Dakota driveway is too tight for a large limo's easy ingress & egress. I've stood outside the Dakota myself in the 90's and seen the arrival of people exiting a limo on the street & walking across the sidewalk into the entranceway, so it's probably the usual thing, then and now.

Season's greetings from this side of the water.

There were four witnesses who saw Chapman and doorman Perdomo after shots were heard. All four place Chapman at the left side of the entrance of the driveway (the doorman booth side). Perdomo & Chapman also stated same. Chapman also said he was twenty feet away from Lennon when he fired shots. Why were two different types of bullets recovered from John's autopsy, 1 x hollow point & 1 x 38cal?

The limo was on the street. According to statement Yoko walked down the driveway, followed by Lennon.

& that's the million dollar question David. Well, one of a few million dollar questions. Was Lennon seeking help when he entered the vestibule? Chapman standing at his shooting position just inside the entrance could not have hit John in the front, nor caused the bullet holes in the glass doors. What caused the bullet holes low down in the glass vestibule doors? If the Roosevelt hospital medical statements of Lennon's gunshot wounds are correct, i.e. shots entering left front upper chest, from relatively close range, causing vital arteries to his heart to turn into 'mush' that in their opinion would cause instant death, then how did John walk up steps, through another door into the concierge's area and on into security office to say "I've been shot"? If Chapman was using 'hollow point' bullets how did three of the four hits exit Lennon's back? Exactly how did Jay Hastings' shirt front get covered in blood? Where exactly, in front or behind or towards the courtyard, was Yoko when John was hit? Why do all the statements given by the Dakota staff etc., not concur with each other? Yet, in spite of all the unanswered questions, anomalies and non-investigation of this open and shut case, the world knows that Chapman shot Lennon, no question about it.

That's my guess Sandy, that CIA or their assets in MC were the ventriloquists.

Sandy, I must admit that I sit on the proverbial picket fence where M.C. is concerned. It has been aptly described as a swamp. Alvarado & Garro are intel ventriloquist dummies for me. What Laurent Guyenot wrote in his book 'The Unspoken Kennedy Truth', if true, is revealing. "On May 23rd., 1963, Angleton had distributed to the Joint Chiefs of Staff and heads of 15 other U.S. agencies, a 27 page document about Cuban subversive activities. The document titled 'Cuban Control & Action Capabilities' contains the following problem to be solved:- An American citizen for example, can enter Mexico with a tourist card, not even a passport, and obtain a separate visa to Cuba from the Cuban consulate in Mexico City. He can go to Cuba and return supplied with a new tourist card obtained in Cuba without any indication that he has ever been there." Guyenot continues, Angleton was prescient, that is exactly what the supposed defector Lee Oswald was supposed to attempt to do four months later. The paper reveals Angleton's personal interest in the Cuban consulate in Mexico City in mid '63.

Paul, Lennon's autopsy report has never been publicly released. The autopsy was performed by Elliot Gross, who replaced Michael Baden (he of HSCA medical panel) in 1979. Gross had a very controversial career to say the least, allegations of misleading causes of death and concealment of evidence and accusations of corruption, leading in 2003 to a ban in performing autopsies. Gross' reported conclusions concerning entry and exit wounds on Lennon's body were not in agreement with the surgeon and two nurses who worked on John at Roosevelt hospital.

I have read Fenton Bresler's 'Who Killed John Lennon' + Jack Jones' 'Let Me Take You Down' + John Wiener's 'Gimme Some Truth' + Phil Strongman's 'John Lennon-Life, Times & Assassination' + Strongman & Parker's 'John Lennon & The FBI Files'. Having just finished reading 'Mind Games' I can say that I have learned more solid facts on John's assassination than all the previous publications put together. I strongly recommend David Whelan's book. Why? Because of the glaring similarities, or as per the title of this thread states, the disturbing parallels of political executions of the 1960's. Particularly the killing of RFK. I have always found Chapman's biography strange, to say the least, but I have learned a lot more of his links with nefarious characters and associations. Yet, in this open and shut case, there is so much that remains an unexplained mystery. As for the Dakota scene itself, the medical evidence, the ballistics, the bullet holes in vestibule doors all show that Chapman could not have killed Lennon. 2 + 2 does not make 4 in this case. The official narrative is impossible. Therefore we are looking at a programmed patsy-assassin as per Sirhan. I know this is open for those who will compare this to fake moon landings etc. I would invite those to read Whelan's solid investigation and report their interpretations of his work, rather than ridicule the book simply because the world knows that Chapman shot Lennon.

Who was the 'Leon' that visited the Odio apartment? As Fonzi wrote:-The visit was more likely on September 25,26, or 27. If it were, then Oswald, judging from evidence developed by both the Warren Commission and this committee, had to have had access to private transportation to get to Dallas from New Orleans a situation that indicates possible conspiratorial involvement. Who was the imposter reported by Hoover as using Oswald's birth certificate while LHO was in Russia? Who hitched a lift with Ralph Yates? Who was the crazy Oak Cliff rifle range shooter? Who was the Lincoln Mercury test drive person who caused the salesman to write the name Lee Oswald? Who was creating a scene at the Dobbs House restaurant, identified as Oswald, while LHO was working at the Depository? Answer these questions and we can then look at Calloway's fleeing cop killer.

Gil, Your usual thorough summation of the legal process. Which I note has not been challenged by the Oswald guilty advocates. Please excuse my deviation from your topic, but knowing of your law enforcement background I have a general question, not related to this case, but which I have read. Being from U.K., ballistics is not a subject I am familiar with. Q1) Do U.S. police forces use hollow point bullets? Q2) Do these type of bullets fragment upon hitting a victim and therefore do not penetrate a body? (So that a 2nd innocent person is not hit.)

Paul, Thanks for the heads up on Robbie's OotB., Very interesting to hear D.W. Looking forward to this book dropping through my letterbox.

Det., R.D. Lewis arrived at DPD and immediately went to the ID Bureau offices. He removed his coat and was quickly briefed on the subject. He was told that Frazier lives close to Oswald's wife, worked at the TSBD with Oswald, and gave Oswald a ride to Irving on weekends. They also tell him that 'Homicide is pretty sure that Oswald is the man they want, but the Frazier kid is something else.' They tell him that they wonder if Frazier is an accomplice and that is why he appears so scared. And isn't that what Fritz wants to know? Is this just an ordinary guy, or part of something bigger? (The Day Kennedy Was Shot-Bishop p609) Stovall admitted to WC Attorney Joseph Ball that he was present during the polygraph. He explained "in our polygraph room we've got a two-way mirror there and in another room behind it, so that the officer that is investigating the case, if he wants to, can watch the examination being given, and you can hear the questions and the answers." When Det. Lewis later described at least five people in the room, this is what he meant. They were all behind the mirror, not standing beside Frazier's chair.

Today, the 43rd anniversary of John's killing, David Whelan's three year investigation of this mindless event has culminated in the publication of his book 'Mind Games: The Assassination of John Lennon', which is available on Amazon in paperback price $20. According to the book's rear cover, "Whelan's investigation uncovered evidence which proves that Chapman was a mind-controlled patsy enabling a second shooter to assassinate Lennon as he entered his Dakota residence. Whelan concludes that nefarious individuals and hidden organisations conspired to kill John Lennon." To quote Sean Ono Lennon "Pacifist revolutionaries are historically killed by the government, and anybody who thinks that Mark Chapman was just some guy who killed my dad for his personal interests is insane, I think, or very naive, or hasn't thought about it clearly." As this thread, raised by Mr Whelan claims, 'Disturbing Parallels' between Lennon's killing and other political executions of the 1960's, I would recommend reading this book. Apple tv has produced a series 'John Lennon: Murder Without a Trial' which raises the spectre of the CIA’s mind-control program, MK-ultra which is covered. Including the fact that a CIA MK-ultra control consultant, Milton Kline, was allowed access to Chapman through his defence team. Previously unseen archive footage of Milton Kline is then shown. Manchurian Candidates, Kline states: “you could train them to use firearms indiscriminately, you could train them to shoot people with very little feeling or thought. With no hesitancy. With no concern”. Among the many disturbing aspects of this case which David Whelan highlights in his book are the statements from the Roosevelt Hospital staff who worked on Lennon, Dr. David Halleran says John Lennon was shot four times in his left front chest, with three bullets coming out of his left back - at close range. Chapman was 25 feet behind Lennon. Disturbing parallels with Sirhan.

Well, Johnny happens to be an ardent supporter of Glasgow Celtic, so maybe that's the city of his birth, he just happens to live and work in Edinburgh.

Well Jim, it's certainly book length and detailed enough, if not hard or paperback, certainly one for Kindle.

Paul, Yes, Johnny Cairns went to Dallas this year for Lancer's conference, along with a good number of other DPUK members. My other half objected to the cost of travel etc., so I didn't make it. Johnny is from Edinburgh, hope you understood the accent. All reports on his presentation have been positive, as has the feedback on his 6 part work on K's & K. Hope your visit to Dallas was inspiring.

Apologies Leslie, over a week to reply, I've been busy away from this Forum. Well, many reasons June Cobb is somewhat of another enigma in this case of multi-enigmas. It is certainly well known her penetration of close association of Castro's office c1959-60, working with other agency figures as Juan Cordova and known by Dave Phillips. Cobb was also close to Marita Lorenz as well as Fidel. I assume she was part of the early CIA/Mafia assassination plots to take out Castro. Phillip's said something about Cobb in Cuba that she was in a lot of beds. Was she ever part of Harvey's ZR/Rifle? Who knows? Maybe Larry H. Even earlier in 1957-58 Cobb is in New Orleans assisting in the Fed. Bureau of Narcotics cocaine bust, bringing down a drug lab in Columbia. So, in '63 the agency has her in M.C., where Dave Phillips just happens to be at the same time. No surprise Win Scott jumps to mind. Such a shame Jim Angleton got his paws in Win's filing cabinet! Cobb is a real Mata Hari. She was also described as a blonde, which doesn't fit with her well known photograph.

Johnny Cairns only became involved with D.P.U.K. in the last three or four years. I finally had the pleasure of meeting him in person at our seminar in York this last summer. I have wondered if he should give up his work as an electrician and take up a legal profession instead. It has taken a few days, but finally I have read through his six part opus on the evidence against Oswald. He has produced a huge piece of work for Jim's K's & K website that he should present to a book publisher. 👍

I don't think you are alone...some ice bullet or low charge ordinance. I'm no expert so I just leave it at a back wound of a couple inches. A throat wound which wasn't investigated at Bethesda on instructions from the brass in the gallery. Which is why we have this procrastination today, but you're probably right.

Certainly new and most interesting info here Tony! As I have posted in your other thread on occupants of properties on West 5th., from Nancy Weiford's recent article, she also includes a Victor & Helen (no surname) as living in 2438 Westbrook, opposite the Randle's. Some street plan would help clarify exactly where folk lived, with names & numbers of houses.

Certainly not Cliff. I've always been anti SBT with the back wound producing no through path. Also, like yourself I see the bullet holes in JFK's clothing as being far too low to connect to the neck. What I was meaning in my post was a FMJ bullet deflecting off rib & neck bone, as per Orr's theory, is somewhat more logical than a back wound just penetrating an inch or two & without any bullet that caused that wound being located. Not that I accept Mr Orr's proposition, the evidence from the Bethesda witnesses, Humes, Boswell, Fink, Jenkins, Sibert/O'Neill is too strong.

This re-construction programme seems based on John Orr's theories of events. His report pdf can be found here:- http://www.mountainrivercabins.com/JohnOrrReport.pdf There are various points in John Orr's report paper that I find troubling. Firstly, I treat references to the Z film with caution. I accept that pictures do not lie, however, I have no confidence that the extant film we see today is the camera original. Simply on the documented goings on at NPIC etc. Mr. Orr follows the WC with LHO firing three shots from the TSBD sixth floor, based on the finding of 3 shells at the supposed sniper's nest. Yet there is solid doubt that one of these shells could not have been fired that day due to it's bent lip and lack of markings that other shells produced when loaded into the MC rifle. All long ago reported by DPUK's Ian Griggs. See his work in 'No Case To Answer'. I can concur with this report on the various missed shots, which negate the lone nut theories. With regard to the back wound, we know that the Bethesda autopsy found no path through the body, after probing that wound with a finger, and or the reported use of a sound into the wound. Personally I have always found this strange, so John Orr's alternate theory is somewhat more logical than a hole that went nowhere without any ordinance present. On the other hand, this bullet striking rib and neck bone without yaw or tumbling to create an exit in the throat that Parkland described as an entry wound. Let us ignore the claims of through and through holes in the limousine's windshield recorded by viewers at Parkland followed by the replacement of same in Detroit, where witnesses state they saw a hole, corroborated by a S.S. report of a hole seen in the White House garage on the evening of the 22nd. With regard to the head shot,(single) we must enter the domain of autopsy X-rays, which has never been my favourite area of evidence. I leave that to the experts. There has been the work of Dr Mantik & Dr Chesser who has discovered with Optical Density examinations of these X-rays that the famous 6.5mm object seen is quite simply a fake. The OD probe shows that it is not a solid object. Certainly these areas are not in most researchers field of knowledge but Jim DiEugenio's 'JFK Revisited-Through the Looking Glass' covers these murky areas. The head shot entry point up in the cowlick (HSCA) is also contentious, that stands against the entry just above and to the right of the E.O.P. Mr Orr takes no notice of Kilduff's statement of an entry shot through the right temple, information from Adm. Burkley and stated to have been seen by Jim Jenkins and others at Bethesda and close by-standers in Dealey Plaza. The Orr report also stands on CE399 to have been found on the Governor's stretcher at Parkland hospital. The evidence for this is flaky to say the least. Both Tomlinson & O.P. Wright stated that the bullet found had a pointed tip. Also, no person in the chain of custody would i.d. CE399 as the bullet they handled on Nov. 22nd. Now today we have the belated statement of Paul Landis to create more smoke. While mentioning smoke, this report does not consider the gun smoke seen by witnesses in the knoll/fence area. Smoke also captured on the Weigman film in that area. Or the smell of gunpowder by members of the motorcade and police officers in that location, which in no way could emanate from either the TSBD or the Records Bldg or anywhere other than the knoll area due to the direction of the wind from W to E.

Short review on Amazon.