Ruth Paine in Nicaragua

[Chris Newton]

Anything odd here?

Jon, that seems entirely reasonable, nothing strange...

...unless your assassin and his wife and possibly some of their friends were the folks put there by the some element of the intelligence community, quite possibly "off-the-books".

Then thing start to become "odd".

[James DiEugenio]

In Destiny Betrayed, second edition, I picked up on this incident in Nicaragua, with Ruth apparently making lists of names and pics.

I related it back to the files found at the Paine household and reported by Buddy Walthers, and how this was so quickly covered up by the Warren Commission.

And I also related it to the report of Michael Paine at Luby's Restaurant near SMU in Dallas. There were complaints from students that a man would "accost certain students, and then praise the Castro revolution to them, while protesting America's policies toward Cuba. The man claimed to know a communist, an ex -Marine who had recently returned to the USA with a Russian wife, clearly a reference to Oswald. This event occurred in April of 1963. Someone thought this was a little unusual for Dallas at that time.. So an FBI agent came down and started interviewing the students the man had talked to. After one student physically described the man, the agent pulled out a picture of Michael Paine. The student said Paine was the man.

So the question with Michael Paine is this: What would a man living off of trust funds from the Cabot and Forbes families--which he was at the time--and with a security clearance from Bell Helicopter, why would such a man be promoting Castro in Dallas with college students?" (Destiny Betrayed, p. 198)

Jon, see this is what Chris was talking about. This gets odd.

Edited November 3, 2015 by James DiEugenio

[Chris Newton]

Jim & Jon,

Pure speculation:

What are the odds that some other OP is developing using a cell that exists in the Dallas Russian Exile community. Something that might involve trying to identify pro-castro or pro-communists using a fake pro-castro dangle? Then this OP is diverted or co-opted unwittingly to babysit LHO, it could account for some of the confusion and denials.

I also find it highly suspicious that every time Ruth appears on the scene to scoop up Marina, LHO has someplace important to go.

I'm really confused by Michaels refusal to take the Oath of Enlistment, not taking oaths is a Quaker "thing" not a Unitarian thing. Is he a "fake" Unitarian?

I find a similarity with the Kloepfers in New Orleans. Ruth Kloepfer is supposedly the Secretary of the local Quaker chapter, she grew up, in the midwest, a strict Baptist and her father is a Baptist Minister. Ruth's husband, H. Warner Kloepfer is a renowned geneticist from Tulane whose name, address and phone number were found LHO's address book. Ruth Kloepfer claims to have visited the Oswalds when LHO wasn't home and could not speak Russian. H. Warner denied having any contact with LHO. How did his name get in that book? There is a Quaker scholarship for students in H. Warner Kloepfers name, in Dallas. Odd.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Chris Newton

[James DiEugenio]

CN: What are the odds that some other OP is developing using a cell that exists in the Dallas Russian Exile community. Something that might involve trying to identify pro-castro or pro-communists using a fake pro-castro dangle? Then this OP is diverted or co-opted unwittingly to babysit LHO, it could account for some of the confusion and denials.

I also find it highly suspicious that every time Ruth appears on the scene to scoop up Marina, LHO has someplace important to go.

Very interesting theses.

[Chris Newton]

Hey Jim, thanks. pls check forum pm.

If it's true that there were file cabinets in the Paine's garage what does that say to the theory above?

[Martin Blank]

i read somewhere and for the life of me can't remember where (though i'll keep looking) that the cia always builds operations on or under other operations. will keep trying

[James DiEugenio]

Chris, if the Walthers' report is accurate then your theory becomes more than that.

BTW, I would like to thank the people who have sent me email and PMs about this thread. I should also note that someone stopped me at the gym yesterday and thanked me for it in person by saying, "That Ruth Paine is one heck of an interesting subject. Just the kind of person someone like Allen Dulles and the CIA would take notice of."

With which I whole heartedly agree.

Edited November 3, 2015 by James DiEugenio

[Gene Kelly]

Jim:

You simply can't make this stuff up. The Paines are an example of the cliche that "truth can sometimes be stranger than fiction". They are beyond suspicious, and with far too many coincidences (an important standard used by intelligence analysts) surrounding their 1963 existence. Stepping back (and up), its as if they come out of nowhere, play a key role in the big "play" (or magic act) and then just as quickly fade from the scene the next year.

As one poster recently stated, its instructive to assess who (in the long list of assassination characters and suspects) was not examined, investigated, or questioned by Warren, HSCA, AARB,et al. Who is conspicuously missing from the record (e.g. Paul Helliwell). The Paines are the most oft-quoted testimony in the entire Warren record, yet they are subsequently untouched in the next 20-30 years. it would also seem that Dulles managed and throttled their extensive warren testimony, as with no other witnesses. That too is mighty interesting.

The Paines were divorced in 1971, and went their separate ways. I live in the Philadelphia suburbs and went to school and work near Swarthmore and Paoli PA where their wealthy families lived. I know individuals locally who are Quakers, and they are quite passionate about pacifism and peace. So the Paines' story has a local resonance for me. I believe (conjecture of course) that Michael may also have been engaged in the mysticism that his stepfather (Arthur Young) dabbled in. He served in Korea and seems to have quite the strange "affect"about his personality and manner. I wouldn't be surprised if Dulles' favored MKULTRA and Manchurian techniques weren't somehow applied to Michael ... a theme (or undercurrent if you will) that runs throughout the assassination anecdotes with certain characters.

In any case, I appreciate reading your work and analysis, which stands out as uniquely on point on so many aspects of the JFK case. I always learn something insightful and thoughtful when I read your posts, which is why I remain active on this Forum. You've done work that rivals that of Larry Hancock and Garrison (imho) in shedding light upon the bizarre story of John Kennedy's murder.

Gene

[Paul Brancato]

Here here - agree completely.

[David G. Healy]

Here here - agree completely.

AMEN!

[Cliff Varnell]

So the question with Michael Paine is this: What would a man living off of trust funds from the Cabot and Forbes families--which he was at the time--and with a security clearance from Bell Helicopter, why would such a man be promoting Castro in Dallas with college students?" (Destiny Betrayed, p. 198)

Never under-estimate the capability of top perps sacrificing one of their own.

The John Hinckley Scenario.

If Oswald had been gunned down early afternoon 11/22 and declared an agent of Castro -- how would have lefty Ruth and Michael Paine come across?

[James DiEugenio]

Jim:

You simply can't make this stuff up. The Paines are an example of the cliche that "truth can sometimes be stranger than fiction". They are beyond suspicious, and with far too many coincidences (an important standard used by intelligence analysts) surrounding their 1963 existence. Stepping back (and up), its as if they come out of nowhere, play a key role in the big "play" (or magic act) and then just as quickly fade from the scene the next year.

As one poster recently stated, its instructive to assess who (in the long list of assassination characters and suspects) was not examined, investigated, or questioned by Warren, HSCA, AARB,et al. Who is conspicuously missing from the record (e.g. Paul Helliwell). The Paines are the most oft-quoted testimony in the entire Warren record, yet they are subsequently untouched in the next 20-30 years. it would also seem that Dulles managed and throttled their extensive warren testimony, as with no other witnesses. That too is mighty interesting.

The Paines were divorced in 1971, and went their separate ways. I live in the Philadelphia suburbs and went to school and work near Swarthmore and Paoli PA where their wealthy families lived. I know individuals locally who are Quakers, and they are quite passionate about pacifism and peace. So the Paines' story has a local resonance for me. I believe (conjecture of course) that Michael may also have been engaged in the mysticism that his stepfather (Arthur Young) dabbled in. He served in Korea and seems to have quite the strange "affect"about his personality and manner. I wouldn't be surprised if Dulles' favored MKULTRA and Manchurian techniques weren't somehow applied to Michael ... a theme (or undercurrent if you will) that runs throughout the assassination anecdotes with certain characters.

In any case, I appreciate reading your work and analysis, which stands out as uniquely on point on so many aspects of the JFK case. I always learn something insightful and thoughtful when I read your posts, which is why I remain active on this Forum. You've done work that rivals that of Larry Hancock and Garrison (imho) in shedding light upon the bizarre story of John Kennedy's murder.

Gene

Gene, thanks so much for this post. Very appreciative.

[Cliff Varnell]

Jim:

You simply can't make this stuff up. The Paines are an example of the cliche that "truth can sometimes be stranger than fiction". They are beyond suspicious, and with far too many coincidences (an important standard used by intelligence analysts) surrounding their 1963 existence. Stepping back (and up), its as if they come out of nowhere, play a key role in the big "play" (or magic act) and then just as quickly fade from the scene the next year.

As one poster recently stated,

That would be me.

its instructive to assess who (in the long list of assassination characters and suspects) was not examined, investigated, or questioned by Warren, HSCA, AARB,et al. Who is conspicuously missing from the record (e.g. Paul Helliwell).

Ding ding ding ding!

Paul Helliwell.

Old China hand.

Ran all the CIA off the books operations related to drugs.

Had absolutely no connection to Oswald.

My best guess Helliwell ran Fidel's dope thru Zapata Off-Shore post JFK assassination.

Maybe Castro woke up on 11/22 with JFK's head in his bed and moved his dope concession over to Bush (the Harriman Crime Family).

Helliwell worked with Lucien Conein, David Morales and Mitch WerBell -- among others.

The best drug trade assassins on the planet.

The Paines are the most oft-quoted testimony in the entire Warren record, yet they are subsequently untouched in the next 20-30 years. it would also seem that Dulles managed and throttled their extensive warren testimony, as with no other witnesses. That too is mighty interesting.

The Paines were divorced in 1971, and went their separate ways. I live in the Philadelphia suburbs and went to school and work near Swarthmore and Paoli PA where their wealthy families lived. I know individuals locally who are Quakers, and they are quite passionate about pacifism and peace. So the Paines' story has a local resonance for me. I believe (conjecture of course) that Michael may also have been engaged in the mysticism that his stepfather (Arthur Young) dabbled in. He served in Korea and seems to have quite the strange "affect"about his personality and manner. I wouldn't be surprised if Dulles' favored MKULTRA and Manchurian techniques weren't somehow applied to Michael ... a theme (or undercurrent if you will) that runs throughout the assassination anecdotes with certain characters.

In any case, I appreciate reading your work and analysis, which stands out as uniquely on point on so many aspects of the JFK case. I always learn something insightful and thoughtful when I read your posts, which is why I remain active on this Forum. You've done work that rivals that of Larry Hancock and Garrison (imho) in shedding light upon the bizarre story of John Kennedy's murder.

Gene

Edited November 5, 2015 by Cliff Varnell

[Gene Kelly]

Cliff;

I believe that Larry Hancock also has strong interest in and suspicion of Paul Helliwell. Many researchers have instincts that center upon the early OSS Far East crowd, of which people like Hunt, Helliwell et al were part of and cut their intelligence teeth with. Didn't Gary Underhill mention them before he met an untimely demise?

Gene

[Larry Hancock]

Helliwell and the CIA crowd that was involved first in Burma in one of the Agencies earliest covert warfare projects, then were called in to provide support the the Guatemala program, are covered in considerable detail in Shadow Warfare. In fact one of my goals in Shadow Warfare was to trace the careers of all those folks through the early years of the CIA, tie them into the deniable weapons sourcing - which by the way spiked again with the Artime project in 63/64 and to the rumors that Gary Underhill heard at the time of the Kennedy assassination. It took a lot of work separating out fact from fiction on what they were and were not doing and also developing a picture of their actual "practices" related to covert action. And of course in the end it all connected to the same stories that Gene Wheaton heard from Carl Jenkins...