Mass Hysteria in Dealey Plaza

[Ray Mitcham]

Who is talking about the junction of Main and Houston?  The photo you have posted is  a frame from the Towner film showing the junction of Houston and Elm Street.

The cop shown in Altgens5 is Edgar Leon Smith.

According to Officer Barnett, he was standing in front of the South East corner of the TSBD. The other cop also named Smith was standing at the corner in front of the Daltex building. The opposite to the way you have them annotated.

Altgens 5 and the photos you posted all show Houston Street towards the Elm Street junction. No wonder you have a problem understanding photos. You can't even get the basics right.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Ray Mitcham

[John Butler]

4 hours ago, John Butler said:

I do have to apologize for an error in the info on this Towner frame.  I have a bad habit of spelling Welcome Barnett's name as Welcome Barrett.  Everything else is fine.

Welcome Barnett at WC:

Mr. BARNETT - Well, as best I remember, we each picked a corner and got on the corner. We were advised to stay on our corner, not to cross over to idly talk, but to stay on the corner and keep our eyes open and be ready.
Mr. LIEBELER - Which corner did you station yourself at? I have a picture here of an aerial view - you can sit down - Commission Exhibit No. 354.
Of course, you can recognize the intersection of Elm and Houston here in the left-hand upper portion of the picture; can you not?
Mr. BARNETT - I was right here.
Mr. LIEBELER - At No. 1.
Mr. BARNETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you remain there at all times from 10 o'clock until the motorcade arrived?
Mr. BARNETT - Yes; well, of course, I was here until we got word to stop the traffic, and I stepped out of this position here. I had to stop traffic from Houston here and help the other officers stop it on Elm, and stop this traffic on this small street that goes in front of the Depository Building

Edited April 5, 2019 by John Butler

[David Andrews]

Next question: Did Ike Altgens really have the time to run diagonally across the grassplot from his location in photo 5 and be in place and focused at the vantage for photo 6?

[Ron Bulman]

33 minutes ago, David Andrews said:

Next question: Did Ike Altgens really have the time to run diagonally across the grassplot from his location in photo 5 and be in place and focused at the vantage for photo 6?

Has anybody ever checked to see if he ran track in high school?  Sprint's or relay's?

[Ron Bulman]

10 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Not mine, that's from McAdams who attempts to debunk the claim. I think he resembles Milteer

He does resemble Milteer.  But the pictures seem to be of a different aged man.  One picture is well blurred, the other a good bit clearer.  Then the balding vs hair, parted.  Maybe he was wearing a toupee in the second picture.  I've long thought it was him between the resemblance and his "from an office building with a high powered rifle" advance statement.  He had prior knowledge somehow, hated JFK, and wanted to be there to see it.  JMO. 

[Stephanie Goldberg]

24 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

He does resemble Milteer.  But the pictures seem to be of a different aged man.  One picture is well blurred, the other a good bit clearer.  Then the balding vs hair, parted.  Maybe he was wearing a toupee in the second picture.  I've long thought it was him between the resemblance and his "from an office building with a high powered rifle" advance statement.  He had prior knowledge somehow, hated JFK, and wanted to be there to see it.  JMO. 

 I agree that there's a resemblance, but I don't think that those two men are the same person.  Just opinion.  I'm no photo analyst.

But are any of the people standing near him identified?   This man seems to be standing by himself, not with friends, family or coworkers.   

[Tony Krome]

2 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

He does resemble Milteer.  But the pictures seem to be of a different aged man.  One picture is well blurred, the other a good bit clearer.  Then the balding vs hair, parted.  Maybe he was wearing a toupee in the second picture.  I've long thought it was him between the resemblance and his "from an office building with a high powered rifle" advance statement.  He had prior knowledge somehow, hated JFK, and wanted to be there to see it.  JMO. 

Yep, hair is different, although my hair disappeared within a few years : (

Tough call and unprovable either way ... I think I'll sit on the fence

[Tony Krome]

7 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

The cop shown in Altgens5 is Edgar Leon Smith. According to Officer Barnett, he was standing in front of the South East corner of the TSBD. The other cop also named Smith was standing at the corner in front of the Daltex building.

This is what I have. A little complex but it was tough getting all 3 corners and cops into one scene

Click on the image for more detail, it's a big file

Edited April 5, 2019 by Tony Krome

[Ron Bulman]

36 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

Yep, hair is different, although my hair disappeared within a few years : (

Tough call and unprovable either way ... I think I'll sit on the fence

Yep.  I lean though based on Agent Adams book primarily.

[Ray Mitcham]

6 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

This is what I have. A little complex but it was tough getting all 3 corners and cops into one scene

Click on the image for more detail, it's a big file

Nice amalgamation, Tony. Note That Butler doesn't even admit the frame he posted was at The junction of Houston and Elm, rather than Houston and Main. The man has no shame.

 

Quote by John Butler "I do have to apologize for an error in the info on this Towner frame.  I have a bad habit of spelling Welcome Barnett's name as Welcome Barrett.  Everything else is fine."

 

"Everything else is fine" except that photo is  at a different junction.😂

Edited April 5, 2019 by Ray Mitcham

[John Butler]

Krome and co. have it almost 100% correct but, not all the way.  On returning to where I first developed this information in , I see where people could say I confused Officer Barnett with Officer Joe Smith.  But, I understand why they did that and why I said what I said.

The identity of these officers is confusing because there was supposed to be 3 officers at the intersection and the film record shows there may have been four.  In some of the WC statements where these officers said they were located is confusing and was further confused by the WC interrogators such as Liebeler.  Edgar Smith said he was stationed under the windows of the Court Records Building and not on the corner of Southeast Houston and Elm.  That was about 30 or 40 feet south of the Southeast corner.  He also said there were two Smiths assigned to that corner, the southeast corner of Houston and Elm. 

This frame is from Escape From the TSBD:  The Fire Escape Plan-

From Edgar Smith’s WC testimony.

“to carry placards, but if I should notice anyone attempting to throw them or any thing like that, I should take them into custody. I was assigned to the corner of Houston and Elm Street. I got to my traffic corner about --
Mr. LIEBELER. Before you get to that - let me ask you a few questions: What did you say your name was, Edgar L.?
Mr. SMITH. E. L. - Edgar L.
Mr. LIEBELER. There were two Smiths on that corner?
Mr. SMITH. Yes; I understand that.”

**

“Mr. SMITH. Well, ran down Houston Street and then to Elm, and actually, I guess it was a little bit farther over than this, because after they turned the corner I couldn't see any of the cars, there were so many people standing there around the corner.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, you were a little bit farther south down Elm Street than Position "A"?
Mr. SMITH. Yes; possibly a little bit farther south than that - yes; I was under these windows here.

567

---

Mr. LIEBELER. That's the county building there you are talking about?
Mr. SMITH. Yes; a little bit farther down. Anyhow, I couldn't see down there without running over here, and I run down here at the time to see the Presidential car go under the triple underpass at a high rate of speed, and I pulled my pistol out and there was people laying down there and run down the street and that was about all. I thought when it came to my mind that there were shots, and I was pretty sure there were when I saw his car because they were leaving in such a hurry, I thought they were coming from this area here, and I ran over there and checked back of it and, of course, there wasn't anything there.
Mr. LIEBELER. You thought the shot came from this little concrete structure up behind No. 7?”

**

If there were two Smiths on the southeast corner of Houston and Elm, then who was on the northeast corner.  We have a choice of Welcome Barnett or an unknown.  Welcome Barnett from his testimony can be placed in the center of Houston Street but, also on the northeast corner of Houston and Elm.

Welcome Barnett said in his WC statements:

“Mr. BARNETT - We divided our duties.
Mr. LIEBELER - How did you do that?
Mr. BARNETT - Well, as best I remember, we each picked a corner and got on the corner. We were advised to stay on our corner, not to cross over to idly talk, but to stay on the corner and keep our eyes open and be ready.
Mr. LIEBELER - Which corner did you station yourself at? I have a picture here of an aerial view - you can sit down - Commission Exhibit No. 354.
Of course, you can recognize the intersection of Elm and Houston here in the left-hand upper portion of the picture; can you not?
Mr. BARNETT - I was right here.
Mr. LIEBELER - At No. 1.
Mr. BARNETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you remain there at all times from 10 o'clock until the motorcade arrived?
Mr. BARNETT - Yes; well, of course, I was here until we got word to stop the traffic, and I stepped out of this position here. I had to stop traffic from Houston here and help the other officers stop it on Elm, and stop this traffic on this small street that goes in front of the Depository Building. ”
 

This could mean after the shooting had occurred word came to stop the traffic.

**

That leaves the officer standing in the middle of Houston Street as Officer Barnett or an unknown.  It is also the reason I believe Officer Barnett was the officer directing traffic after the shooting contrary to his statement.  The two Smiths ran to the Grassy Knoll immediately after the shooting.  Barnett ran up Houston Street and then around the TSBD.  He came back to his post after that. 

So, that leaves an unknown directing traffic after the shooting and stopping the Mayor’s car and after a short time releasing the Mayor’s Car and the National Press Pool Car.  Whoever was there directing traffic then stopped the Camera Cars on Houston Street for about 30 seconds.

Or, it could have been Welcome Barnett leaving his post after the shooting and directing traffic, the motorcade, on Houston Street as it moved north on Houston.

Enough distraction!  What about the 50 witness statements on shooting in the intersection of Houston and Elm.  Only Jeremy has tackled that with a rebuttal.  I don't think he did very well but, at least he tried to debunk those statements.  As far as the trall (misspelled Ray) has made his usual meaningless, garbage noises and others have made hay of distractions, why can't they concentrate on the seriousness of the charge that shooting occurred in the intersection before the motorcade reached the Grassy Knoll?

Edited April 5, 2019 by John Butler

[Chris Davidson]

[Tony Krome]

44 minutes ago, Chris Davidson said:

[Ray Mitcham]

2 hours ago, John Butler said:

Krome and co. have it almost 100% correct but, not all the way.  On returning to where I first developed this information in , I see where people could say I confused Officer Barnett with Officer Joe Smith.  But, I understand why they did that and why I said what I said.

The identity of these officers is confusing because there was supposed to be 3 officers at the intersection and the film record shows there may have been four.  In some of the WC statements where these officers said they were located is confusing and was further confused by the WC interrogators such as Liebeler.  Edgar Smith said he was stationed under the windows of the Court Records Building and not on the corner of Southeast Houston and Elm.  That was about 30 or 40 feet south of the Southeast corner.  He also said there were two Smiths assigned to that corner, the southeast corner of Houston and Elm. 

This frame is from Escape From the TSBD:  The Fire Escape Plan-

From Edgar Smith’s WC testimony.

“to carry placards, but if I should notice anyone attempting to throw them or any thing like that, I should take them into custody. I was assigned to the corner of Houston and Elm Street. I got to my traffic corner about --
Mr. LIEBELER. Before you get to that - let me ask you a few questions: What did you say your name was, Edgar L.?
Mr. SMITH. E. L. - Edgar L.
Mr. LIEBELER. There were two Smiths on that corner?
Mr. SMITH. Yes; I understand that.”

**

“Mr. SMITH. Well, ran down Houston Street and then to Elm, and actually, I guess it was a little bit farther over than this, because after they turned the corner I couldn't see any of the cars, there were so many people standing there around the corner.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, you were a little bit farther south down Elm Street than Position "A"?
Mr. SMITH. Yes; possibly a little bit farther south than that - yes; I was under these windows here.

567

---

Mr. LIEBELER. That's the county building there you are talking about?
Mr. SMITH. Yes; a little bit farther down. Anyhow, I couldn't see down there without running over here, and I run down here at the time to see the Presidential car go under the triple underpass at a high rate of speed, and I pulled my pistol out and there was people laying down there and run down the street and that was about all. I thought when it came to my mind that there were shots, and I was pretty sure there were when I saw his car because they were leaving in such a hurry, I thought they were coming from this area here, and I ran over there and checked back of it and, of course, there wasn't anything there.
Mr. LIEBELER. You thought the shot came from this little concrete structure up behind No. 7?”

**

If there were two Smiths on the southeast corner of Houston and Elm, then who was on the northeast corner.  We have a choice of Welcome Barnett or an unknown.  Welcome Barnett from his testimony can be placed in the center of Houston Street but, also on the northeast corner of Houston and Elm.

Welcome Barnett said in his WC statements:

“Mr. BARNETT - We divided our duties.
Mr. LIEBELER - How did you do that?
Mr. BARNETT - Well, as best I remember, we each picked a corner and got on the corner. We were advised to stay on our corner, not to cross over to idly talk, but to stay on the corner and keep our eyes open and be ready.
Mr. LIEBELER - Which corner did you station yourself at? I have a picture here of an aerial view - you can sit down - Commission Exhibit No. 354.
Of course, you can recognize the intersection of Elm and Houston here in the left-hand upper portion of the picture; can you not?
Mr. BARNETT - I was right here.
Mr. LIEBELER - At No. 1.
Mr. BARNETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you remain there at all times from 10 o'clock until the motorcade arrived?
Mr. BARNETT - Yes; well, of course, I was here until we got word to stop the traffic, and I stepped out of this position here. I had to stop traffic from Houston here and help the other officers stop it on Elm, and stop this traffic on this small street that goes in front of the Depository Building. ”
 

This could mean after the shooting had occurred word came to stop the traffic.

**

That leaves the officer standing in the middle of Houston Street as Officer Barnett or an unknown.  It is also the reason I believe Officer Barnett was the officer directing traffic after the shooting contrary to his statement.  The two Smiths ran to the Grassy Knoll immediately after the shooting.  Barnett ran up Houston Street and then around the TSBD.  He came back to his post after that. 

So, that leaves an unknown directing traffic after the shooting and stopping the Mayor’s car and after a short time releasing the Mayor’s Car and the National Press Pool Car.  Whoever was there directing traffic then stopped the Camera Cars on Houston Street for about 30 seconds.

Or, it could have been Welcome Barnett leaving his post after the shooting and directing traffic, the motorcade, on Houston Street as it moved north on Houston.

Enough distraction!  What about the 50 witness statements on shooting in the intersection of Houston and Elm.  Only Jeremy has tackled that with a rebuttal.  I don't think he did very well but, at least he tried to debunk those statements.  As far as the trall (misspelled Ray) has made his usual meaningless, garbage noises and others have made hay of distractions, why can't they concentrate on the seriousness of the charge that shooting occurred in the intersection before the motorcade reached the Grassy Knoll?

Not a word of apology for being completely wrong  several times.  Nothing bout the photo being labelled incorrectly as Houston and Main. You have no shame, Butler. You are a disgrace to the forum.

 

He keeps calling me a trall (trool, tr oll depending how his typing is,) yet he is the guy who keeps getting things totally wrong.  He even think that Altgens 6 was cropped before being sent out over the wires. You couldn't make it up.

 

I await his evidence that I am a "Lone Gunner' whatever that is supposed to mean, but then I am used to him making assertions that he can't back up.

 

As i said earlier, give up while you're losing John, you are making a show of yourself.

 

Enough, already, you can't argue with stupid.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Ray Mitcham

[Chris Davidson]

Different angles, same idea.