Douglas Caddy Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 Chaos: Charles Manson, the CIA and the Secret History of the Sixties https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/jul/07/chaos-charles-manson-cia-secret-history-sixties-tom-oneill-dan-piepenbring-review?fbclid=IwAR3_oEoLegsvXl2KsS7KlyWadxhm1zFDFxuBVjbfIt19EOIu-edGo-ztz0k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephanie Goldberg Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 The review makes the book sound promising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Brown Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 In addition to Manson writing "Helter Skelter" at the scene of on of the murders, there may be an odd coincidence between the Tate murders of Charles Manson and the murder of John Lennon -- Sharon Tate was married to Roman Polanski and carrying his child when she was killed. Polanski's movie "Rosemary's Baby", released the year before, was filmed at the Dakota, which is where John Lennon was killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Varnell Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 9 minutes ago, Pamela Brown said: In addition to Manson writing "Helter Skelter" at the scene of on of the murders, That wasn't Manson. He wasn't present for any of the murders. This over-rated villain sorely needs de-mythologizing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrell Curtis Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 1 hour ago, Cliff Varnell said: That wasn't Manson. He wasn't present for any of the murders. This over-rated villain sorely needs de-mythologizing. Glad someone said it. The version that everyone goes by, when it comes to the Manson killings is the Bugliosi book, whether they are aware of it or not. That book has been demonstrated to be as full of errors and fabrications as his Kennedy book. A real eye opener was the book by Ed Sanders, "The Family". There was so much to the events surrounding the Manson family, and much of it is unknown to the general public. Bugliosi's version is sorely lacking, and over simplified. There's more to the story than we know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 After watching Bugiliosi in the so-called Mock Trial with Jerry Spence, I came to the very same conclusion about Bugiliosi and Manson and his 103 wins out of 104 trials that is being espoused by these authors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Andrews Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said: That wasn't Manson. He wasn't present for any of the murders. This over-rated villain sorely needs de-mythologizing. He drifted in and out at the Gary Hinman house killing, supposedly cutting Hinman's ear with a sword. Did he not enter the LaBianca house with Watson and tie the couple up before the girls went in? Watson said he did. Atkins and Kasabian said he told them that he did. Edited July 16, 2019 by David Andrews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.T. Patrick Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 (edited) I've had Nikolas Schreck on the show twice. He's done the 1000+ page The Manson File, and he was the director of the documentary Charles Manson Superstar. He absolutely shreds Bugliosi's myth-making regarding the Manson case. What I like most is that he also shreds the myths regarding who the girls really were (especially Van Houten, who the MSM has always portrayed as the most palatable). Both episodes are over three hours, I believe, but they are worth it. Nikolas was excellent. MWN Episode 013: Charles Manson and the Myth of Helter Skelter https://midnightwriternews.com/mwn-episode-026-charles-manson-and-the-myth-of-helter-skelter/ MWN Episode 089: The Legacy of Charles Manson (* recorded shortly after the battle over the estate occurred *) https://midnightwriternews.com/mwn-episode-026-charles-manson-and-the-myth-of-helter-skelter/ Note: Nikolas Schreck also covers the shared characters in the Manson and JFK cases. He does that in episode 013. Edit: Another note, The Manson File is very expensive on Amazon right now, but this fall he is re-releasing an updated version with the death, estate, and anniversary information in it. Edited July 16, 2019 by S.T. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Varnell Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 1 hour ago, David Andrews said: He drifted in and out at the Gary Hinman house killing, supposedly cutting Hinman's ear with a sword. Did he not enter the LaBianca house with Watson and tie the couple up before the girls went in? Watson said he did. Atkins and Kasabian said he told them that he did. Manson wasn't present when Hinman or the LaBiancas were killed. He was there before they were killed but that's not the point regarding the "copycat" ploy writing crazy stuff on the walls with the victims' blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Andrews Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Cliff Varnell said: Manson wasn't present when Hinman or the LaBiancas were killed. He was there before they were killed but that's not the point regarding the "copycat" ploy writing crazy stuff on the walls with the victims' blood. I don't know California law, but now we're down to charges equivalent to Assault and Depraved Indifference to Human Life in Hinman, and those charges plus possible Kidnapping in LaBianca. The copycatting would be the product of an intelligence agency using Manson to program a cult of mind control slaves into committing sloppy murders decorated with political graffiti, by which a national investigative agency would prosecute them and discredit a youth movement? I don't disagree, but it seems like a lot of trouble and blood, since the CIA helped create and advance the Counterculture. Then needed the FBI to help tear it down. Discussion of Manson possibly visiting Cielo Drive after the murders by JFK researcher William Weston, following the lead of Ed Sanders: https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?16991-Zodiac-Killer-was-a-Member-of-the-International-White-Guard/page2 Even if it didn't happen, Manson's at two murder scenes that bracket Cielo Drive - so, hardly an overrated villain. Edited July 17, 2019 by David Andrews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 (edited) Bugliosi did not want the Hinman case tried with Tate/LaBianca. So he split it off and it was assigned to another lawyer. (The JFK Assassination: The Evidence Today, p. 23) Manson was at the LaBianca scene before and the Tate residence after. (ibid, pp 7, 23) But he was not there during the killings and to my knowledge, he did not paint any words on the walls. This was done by others. I think the reason that Bugliosi wanted the Hinman case split was because it would detract from the whole fruity Helter Skelter scenario. From the work I did on this case, the HInman murder was over a drug deal since Hinman dealt in mescaline. Although Dave is correct that Manson did go there briefly and cut Hinman's ear, it was not he who killed Hinman. It was Bobby Beausoleil. The two investigators who cracked the Hinman case, also understood that all three were related but since Bugliosi was out to sensationalize and aggrandize Tate/LaBianca, those two detectives--Charles Guenther and Paul Whiteley-- never got the credit they should have. (ibid, p. 23) To me, there is little doubt that Bugliosi deliberately tried to aggrandize himself through the case. I think there is almost no doubt that he leaked a story to the LA Herald Examiner about the Clan having an agenda to kill several other celebrities: e. g.Tom Jones, Frank Sinatra. He knew he could never get it into the trial because its prejudicial value outweighed its value as evidence. So he leaked it to reporter William Farr. He then lied about it. (ibid, pp. 25-26) With his selling of that goofy Helter Skelter idea and the whole "kill all celebrities in Hollywood", Bugliosi did a real injustice to all involved. In my opinion this was done in two ways. First, there is no way that some of those involved, like Van Houten and Atkins should have been denied parole as long as they were. I mean Van Houten was actually reocmmended for parole three times. But the governor vetoed it each time. Simply because of the sensational quality of the crimes which Bugliosi's book and the two TV films had, IMO, manufactured. Second, it disguised the celebrity drugs angle of the crimes. This included people like Cass Elliot and Steve McQueen. For instance, the police were at Elliot's house the day after the Tate murders. (Ibid, p. 17) Jay Sebring supplied drugs to some of his clients, like McQueen. (p. 16) . Sebring's assistant said that drugs were delivered to the Polanski home that day by a supplier of Sebring's. The other celebrity that I believe Bugliosi took a dive for was Terry Melcher. (pp. 18-19) Melcher was much closer to Manson than Bugliosi lets on in his book. In fact, Manson was actually inside the Cielo Drive home when Melcher was living there, before Polanski rented it. (p. 18) I had never read Helter Skelter before I reviewed Reclaiming History. I just felt that something was off about the whole wild scenario. But Reclaiming History was so bad that, like Mark Lane, I felt hey, maybe I should take a look at that case. I still cannot understand how the entire MSM fell for that story. But they did. My editor severely cut my chapter on this from the first edition. It was only after Bugliosi died that they allowed it to be printed intact. Edited July 17, 2019 by James DiEugenio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph McBride Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 Mae Brussell's alternate view of the "Manson" murders, arguing that Manson was a patsy and focusing on the underexplored role of Charles (Tex) Watson and his Army Intelligence connections: http://www.maebrussell.com/Transcriptions/16.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Andrews Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 (edited) I hear what you're all saying, and I'm re-reading the Mae Brussell transcript, which I'm familiar with. I agree that there are machinations, real or suggested, before and after the murders. But I can't write Manson a pass as a "patsy," any more than I'll write one for Watson or the girls. Call me a conservative. Are we agreed that Beausoleil killed Hinman in the company of some Family girls, over a drug deal to a motorcycle gang that Manson was ultimately financially liable for? Are we agreed that Tex Watson and Family girls killed the LaBiancas? That enough of the Kasabian testimony is valid and uncoerced? Are we agreed that Susan Atkins' jail cell confession is not a plant? Are we agreed that the statements of culpability and remorse made by Watson and the jailed Family girls in seeking parole are uncoerced and accurate? Or do we feel they take responsibility in order to protect some military intelligence assassins that they fear, or are concerned that a parole board will not believe in? Then no hall pass for Charlie. But how did Tex Watson know which one was the phone line? This set of murder cases, let me tell you - the more you study them, the more you feel like you're splashing through a room ankle deep in blood. And I'm reactionary enough to deny Manson "patsy" status just for the sake of my disgust, not to mention the suffering of the victims. I can, and do, look for more guilty parties, however. Edited July 17, 2019 by David Andrews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 (edited) I don't say that Manson is a patsy. That is not my idea, although I think it might be Mae's. What I am saying if that Bugliosi performed a legal injustice once he was allowed to take over the case. In my view, if Aaron Stovitz had remained the lead prosecutor, it very well might not have happened since he never bought into the hole Beatles' Helter Skelter. Edited July 17, 2019 by James DiEugenio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Varnell Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, David Andrews said: I don't know California law, but now we're down to charges equivalent to Assault and Depraved Indifference to Human Life in Hinman, and those charges plus possible Kidnapping in LaBianca. The copycatting would be the product of an intelligence agency using Manson to program a cult of mind control slaves into committing sloppy murders decorated with political graffiti, by which a national investigative agency would prosecute them and discredit a youth movement? I don't buy it. Susan Atkins used Gary Hinman's blood to decorate his apartment and it was her bright idea to commit copycat crimes to fool the cops after they busted Bobby Beausoliel for the Hinman murder. From Manson In His Own Words, with Nuel Emmons, pg 194: <quote on> As a group, Leslie [Van Houten], Mary [Brunner], Squeaky [Fromme], Sadie [Atkins] and Linda [Kasabian] informed me of Bobby’s arrest. Linda repeated the phone conversation with Bobby, the charges and what he had told the police. At present, he was being held as a suspect and had not been charged with murder. After the phone call, the girls had held their own meeting and discussed the best method of assisting Bobby. They decided that if murders similar to the Hinman slaying continued to occur, the police would begin to believe Bobby was not their man. They hadn’t got as far as figuring out who was going to do these copy-cat killings or who would be the victims. I told them the plan was crazy and that the police wouldn’t go for it. Sadie blurted out, “It will work, Charlie. At Gary’s house, we wrote things on the wall like ‘Political Piggy’ and drew a panther’s paw and that kind of stuff. We can do it again and they will think the [blacks] did it. It will be Helter Skelter.” Her words were reflections of what I had been saying to the kids in recent months, but the difference was that I did feel the blacks were tiring of their suppression. They would rise up against the whites, and there would be chaos… <quote off> Quote I don't disagree, but it seems like a lot of trouble and blood, since the CIA helped create and advance the Counterculture. The CIA put a lot of LSD on the street primarily thru their academic connections. But after that the Counterculture had a life of it's own that couldn't be controlled by anyone. The Counterculture was born in San Francisco in 1965 fathered by Ken Kesey, Bill Graham, the Grateful Dead and the Jefferson Airplane. Not a CIA man in sight. Quote Then needed the FBI to help tear it down. Discussion of Manson possibly visiting Cielo Drive after the murders by JFK researcher William Weston, following the lead of Ed Sanders: https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?16991-Zodiac-Killer-was-a-Member-of-the-International-White-Guard/page2 Even if it didn't happen, Manson's at two murder scenes that bracket Cielo Drive - so, hardly an overrated villain. That Manson was some cult master-mind is a myth. Susan Atkins was more of a driving force behind the murders than the over-rated Charles Manson. Edited July 17, 2019 by Cliff Varnell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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