The inevitable end result of our last 56 years

[W. Niederhut]

41 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

The constitutional right for state legislators to decide on a slate of electors was not meant to substitute for the will of the voters of that state. It’s an emergency proviso in the absence of a popular vote. 

Or if voting irregularities are alleged...

Just saw this explanation of the apparent Trump/GOP scam at Axios.

The Electoral College play
www.axios.com/trump-electoral-college-biden-68d94e27-ace7-4da8-9e22-af7a62fe5149.html

[Jeff Carter]

2 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

   The issue is that Trump's only technically "legal" path to an Electoral College "victory" is for Republican-controlled state legislators to appoint false electors to the EC-- i.e., in defiance of the actual votes of their states' constituents.

  Hence, the current, frantic efforts by Trump and his RNC goons to create an illusion of voter fraud, (which could be used as an ersatz justification for the selection of false electors.)

   So the focus in the M$M on the Trump/RNC disinformation about alleged election fraud is a good thing.  It's not "hysterical," but entirely rational.

   We need to debunk the Trump/RNC nonsense that could be used by dishonest state legislators to justify their appointment of false electors.

  

Is it not a bit more complicated than that? Trump is litigating the mail-in votes, which he signalled he would do back in September. This is somewhat different than "casting doubt on the integrity of the vote" in general, as the NY Times frames it. I understand the unique circumstances of this election year (i.e. pandemic), but I cannot recall when mail-in votes specifically had such profile in the past or when this method had been so heavily promoted, singularly, by just one of the two parties. From my observation, the MSM has been uniform in declaring that Biden has already been declared President, and that Trump has no basis of complaint - neither of which actually correspond to the known reality. It appears that rather than rely on "false electors", Trump's strategy is to seek to invalidate portions of the mail-in count so that he retains the lead in state balloting with valid claim to the state's EC. If the process and procedure of counting the mail-in ballots has been entirely above-board, then it's assured that Biden will take the oath of office.

[Kirk Gallaway]

A man GWB once affectionately called, "Turd Blossom"  GWB Senior Campaign Advisor and Wheeler Icon., Karl Rove says that the election result won't be overturned.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/this-election-result-wont-be-overturned-11605134335

Again Rove says, Trump won't overturn election.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/11/politics/karl-rove-2020-election-biden-trump/index.html

[Ron Bulman]

I think the first lady was ready to get the hell out of dodge six weeks ago.  Not much Christmas spirit regarding the WH, or for immigrant children.  Wait, isn't she an immigrant?

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/nationworld/ny-melania-trump-leaked-audio-20201002-xaygx2crefaz5jib2bhsyzmug4-story.html

[Kirk Gallaway]

Yes, that was from a release from that Wolkoff book about a month ago. Maybe not that compassionate.

But think of poor Melania and all the obligations she still has to do even though she won't be First Lady soon!

https://apis.mail.yahoo.com/ws/v3/mailboxes/@.id==VjN--Wpo0I_Q6rPAZ1jsTfHS24kxWbs1uKROjqKtcWphnyUS0eKm4Q5gji-Tixyir1JppXSQPIt7834jXjyRXCwNNg/messages/@.id==AF99ZGZiQQtaX6bk7wh74E7u_2Y/content/parts/@.id==2/thumbnail?appId=YMailNorrinLaunch

Edited November 12, 2020 by Kirk Gallaway

[Steve Thomas]

Experts: Trump’s New Michigan Lawsuit Is Recycled Junk

By William Bredderman Nov. 11, 2020

https://www.thedailybeast.com/experts-trumps-new-michigan-lawsuit-to-stop-biden-is-recycled-junk?ref=home

“Reuters reported on Wednesday that a judge in Maricopa County, Arizona, allowed the firm Snell & Wilmer to drop out as counsel for the Republican National Committee in a suit alleging some votes weren’t properly counted. Law firms helping Trump challenge the election outcome have faced public scorn for their role.”

Being a Trump lawyer can’t be good for business. Can you imagine trying to run a TV commercial?

Have you been injured in an accident? Call XYZ. We’re 0 for 12 in recent lawsuits.

Steve Thomas

[Robert Burrows]

5 hours ago, Mark Stevens said:

I've mentioned it before, but I work in a large manufacturing plant and I live in the South (maybe being in the South creates a different perspective). On a daily basis I come into contact with literally hundreds of Trump supporters. I have heard literally every last one of these talking points and I literally hear at least one of your quoted items below mentioned on a daily basis. (I'm only emphasizing these words to drive home the point that I am not exaggerating or embellishing.)

I live in Downstate New York, and I hear the same rhetoric every day. I thought that Biden would prevail this time, because, in the cities and  surrounding suburbs, I saw far fewer Trump campaign signs than in 2016. However, in the rural areas, I saw a Trump sign on almost every lawn. Not only placards, but enormous Trump flags, and banners, that were prominently, and proudly, displayed. I never saw a Biden banner, let alone a flag. I find the passion of Trump's supporters truly frightening. Millions of people have been consuming the fear and hatred of the left that Rush Limbaugh and his ilk have been feeding them on a daily basis for the last three plus decades. 

 

 

[Steve Thomas]

9 hours ago, David Andrews said:

The Guardian on "various imagined dark scenarios, perhaps involving renegade state legislatures" in the red states:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/11/can-donald-trump-stay-in-office-second-term-president-coup

 

David,

Thanks for the referral. Yes, I had seen that earlier.

My question revolved around this passage in the Fox News article:

"the GOP legislators may have a difficult time seating Biden electors when it comes down to putting in place that process for the vote on December 14th.”

Even though the Indiana law prescribes that the Electors shall meet in the Chamber of the House of Representatives, what would happen if the Speaker of the House, or the Legislative body itself, refused to allow the Electors to meet there? Can the Legislature interfere with the process for how and when the Electors meet?

Steve Thomas

[Steve Thomas]

Electoral College & Indecisive Elections

Congress Decides: 1877

https://history.house.gov/Institution/Origins-Development/Electoral-College/

 

“The contested 1876 presidential election between Republican Rutherford B. Hayes of Ohio and Democrat Samuel J. Tilden of New York was the last to require congressional intervention. Tilden won the popular vote and the electoral count. But Republicans challenged the results in three Southern states, which submitted certificates of election for both candidates. While the Constitution requires the House and Senate to formally count the certificates of election in joint session, it is silent on what Congress should do to resolve disputes. In January 1877, Congress established the Federal Electoral Commission to investigate the disputed Electoral College ballots. The bipartisan commission, which included Representatives, Senators, and Supreme Court Justices, voted along party lines to award all the contested ballots to Hayes—securing the presidency for him by a single electoral vote.”

"Since 1887, 3 U.S.C. 15 sets the method for objections to electoral votes. During the Joint Session, Members of Congress may object to individual electoral votes or to state returns as a whole. An objection must be declared in writing and signed by at least one Representative and one Senator. In the case of an objection, the Joint Session recesses and each chamber considers the objection separately in a session which cannot last more than two hours with each Member speaking for no more than five minutes. After each house votes on whether or not to accept the objection, the Joint Session reconvenes and both chambers disclose their decisions. If they agree to the objection, the votes in question are not counted. If either chamber does not agree with the objection, the votes are counted."

Steve Thomas

 

[Steve Thomas]

Pulitzer-winning author: Biden and the Democrats could ‘just dig themselves deeper’ — fueling a fascist comeback

By Chauncey Devega, November 12, 2020

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/11/pulitzer-winning-author-biden-and-the-democrats-could-just-dig-themselves-deeper-fueling-a-fascist-comeback/

“It is the hyper-masculinity. That is the core essence of fascism. There is no coherent ideology with fascism. Fascism mutates and changes. In the lead-up to power, the Nazis were striking in Berlin, along with the communists. The Nazis put “socialist” in their name, The National Socialist Party, as a way of becoming more appealing. To reduce Trump’s version of fascism solely along lines of race is to miss the forces that are pushing people into the arms of the neofascists. Racism is an element in the form of mythologies about whiteness and self-exaltation, and the other myths about identity and origin. But what people who follow fascists are really looking for is a sense of empowerment.

Donald Trump fulfilled that role, not as a political leader, but as a traditional cult leader. Members of the cult want their cult leader to break all the rules. The power of the cult leader becomes an extension of the follower’s own identity and power. All moral autonomy is surrendered to the cult leader. That is the dynamic in this country with Donald Trump and his movement. Therefore, there are fewer ways in American society to communicate with one another across lines of politics and other identities. When Donald Trump, from the White House —in what was an absolutely remarkable moment —denounced the electoral process as fraudulent, what was really frightening is that there are tens of millions of Americans who believe him.

Will Trump be seen as a martyr? Will his time as president, even in defeat, be remembered as a noble cause by his followers?

The narrative will be that he and they were stabbed in the back. “The media, the liberals, Silicon Valley, they stabbed us in the back.” I am worried about violence. The violence will be directed at mainstream Democrats such as the governors of Virginia or Michigan. Once that begins and the Pandora’s box is opened, control of the situation is lost. The United States is awash in weapons. People are going to be shot in acts of political violence. Then we as a country are in deep trouble.”

Steve Thomas

[Steve Thomas]

Trump, Donald J. and Bill Zanker. Think BIG and Kick Ass in Business and Life. EveryBook, October 16, 2007

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_Big_and_Kick_Ass

" The chapter "Revenge" focuses on achieving retribution against perceived enemies.[36][5][37] It begins by recounting a long-running argument between Trump and actress Rosie O'Donnell.[5] Trump then criticizes businessman Mark Cuban's television persona and appearance.[6][38] He goes on to praise Bill Clinton's courage and criticizes Mario Cuomo's lack of it.[34] Trump advises readers who have been wronged to "screw them back in spades"[37] and reap any possible benefits.[39][40] He elaborated on the measure of revenge by saying he responds to wrongs by retaliating in the same manner, but with more severity.[41] Trump cautions readers against being complacent and trusting in civilization because the world is cruel and ruthless.[42] Trump writes that those who do not seek revenge are remiss and calls them "schmucks".[5][43]"

Steve Thomas

[David Andrews]

7 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Even though the Indiana law prescribes that the Electors shall meet in the Chamber of the House of Representatives, what would happen if the Speaker of the House, or the Legislative body itself, refused to allow the Electors to meet there? Can the Legislature interfere with the process for how and when the Electors meet?

Steve Thomas

I'm extrapolating (like a good Originalist) from Art. I, § 4, cl. 1 that Congress can intervene if a state legislature delays the time of seating electors, which is a guarantee that electors will be seated - but that intervention means further delay, which would be the goal of introducing any delay, and destructive to the process. 

The ruling idea is that not everyone in the Republic can possibly be deranged by unchecked political passions, or, if they are, it is "the will of the People."  It doesn't quite guarantee that a contested election will be decided in favor of the nominal majority.

Edited November 12, 2020 by David Andrews

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, Steve Thomas said:

Trump, Donald J. and Bill Zanker. Think BIG and Kick Ass in Business and Life. EveryBook, October 16, 2007

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_Big_and_Kick_Ass

" The chapter "Revenge" focuses on achieving retribution against perceived enemies.[36][5][37] It begins by recounting a long-running argument between Trump and actress Rosie O'Donnell.[5] Trump then criticizes businessman Mark Cuban's television persona and appearance.[6][38] He goes on to praise Bill Clinton's courage and criticizes Mario Cuomo's lack of it.[34] Trump advises readers who have been wronged to "screw them back in spades"[37] and reap any possible benefits.[39][40] He elaborated on the measure of revenge by saying he responds to wrongs by retaliating in the same manner, but with more severity.[41] Trump cautions readers against being complacent and trusting in civilization because the world is cruel and ruthless.[42] Trump writes that those who do not seek revenge are remiss and calls them "schmucks".[5][43]"

Steve Thomas

Scoop: Trump eyes digital media empire to take on Fox News

By Mike Allen, 11/12/20

https://www.axios.com/trump-fox-news-digital-media-competitor-25afddee-144d-4820-8ed4-9eb0ffa42420.html

“Here's Trump's plan, according to the source:

• There's been lots of speculation about Trump starting a cable channel. But getting carried on cable systems would be expensive and time-consuming.

• Instead, Trump is considering a digital media channel that would stream online, which would be cheaper and quicker to start.

• Trump's digital offering would likely charge a monthly fee to MAGA fans. Many are Fox News viewers, and he'd aim to replace the network — and the $5.99-a-month Fox Nation streaming service, which has an 85% conversion rate from free trials to paid subscribers — as their top destination.

Trump's database of email and cellphone contacts would be a huge head start.

• Trump's lists are among the most valuable in politics — especially his extensive database of cellphone numbers for text messages.

Axios is told Trump may use vote-count rallies to undercut Fox.

• "He's going to spend a lot of time slamming Fox," the source said.

• “He plans to wreck Fox, no doubt about it,” said one source with detailed knowledge of Trump’s plans.”

Steve Thomas

 

[Joe Bauer]

8 hours ago, Robert Burrows said:

I live in Downstate New York, and I hear the same rhetoric every day. I thought that Biden would prevail this time, because, in the cities and  surrounding suburbs, I saw far fewer Trump campaign signs than in 2016. However, in the rural areas, I saw a Trump sign on almost every lawn. Not only placards, but enormous Trump flags, and banners, that were prominently, and proudly, displayed. I never saw a Biden banner, let alone a flag. I find the passion of Trump's supporters truly frightening. Millions of people have been consuming the fear and hatred of the left that Rush Limbaugh and his ilk have been feeding them on a daily basis for the last three plus decades. 

 

 

RB, exactly.

Thinking/wondering how white America has turned so far to the right politically the last 30 years.

Like most of us here I am old enough to remember back before this massive nationally broadcast right wing promoting, left wing demonizing, fear and anger inciting political talk radio propaganda machine campaign went all out 24/7 bananas.

First with Limbaugh and soon enough a small army of similar copycat left demonizing talk show hosts. And curiously no left defending ones.

Paul Harvey was it.

Limbaugh's adeptness in riling up millions of listeners against the left could be measured and was found to be hugely successful in influencing white American public and political opinion.

Especially the white working class who have always made up the main listening audience ( by far ) of daytime talk radio. Millions of trades workers in their work trucks and work places and shops. Millions of others just driving in their cars running errands or in their homes doing chores.

Hungering for someone to be their voice and yell out to all America their personal pent up white American social and political frustrations, angers and fears.

Rush Limbaugh has been their hero in this regards.

It has been measured that 50 million Americans tune in and listen to national talk radio throughout the day and night. That is a huge audience. Talk radio is very impacting. More than most know.

For decades now, our national radio broadcast waves have been inundated with the likes of evangelical religious style right wing proselytizing, left wing demonizing celebrity characters such as Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, Mark Levin, Glenn Beck, Micheal Savage ( real name "Weiner",) Laura Ingraham, Mike Gallagher, Clyde Lewis, etc. etc. and for a few years in between even super patriots G.Gordon Liddy, Oliver North and conservative policy wonk Bill Bennett!

It's a laughably large and crowded field.

For sure in part because it's an absolute gold mine lucrative gig!   Huge money.

Limbaugh makes what...25 million a year doing his thing? And these most well known others make millions a year also.

And throw in "super fringe" and super inciting Alex Jones ( millions of listeners also ) who would make you believe everything is a left wing QAnon type conspiracy and frequently has America's most well known and favorite Republican dirty trickster and also left conspiracy promoting Roger Stone on his broadcasts.  And there are still others in smaller regional area broadcast markets.

Every second or minute of the day or night all one has to do to catch these left/liberal/democrat demonizing talk shows is to simply turn on your AM radio and turn the dial. They're everywhere.

Even late night, huge audience Coast To Coast AM radio with host George Noory tends toward the right, frequently having on far right pundits such as Roger Stone and left conspiracy book writer "Dr." Jerome Corsi. You know Corsi, he was a promoter of the John Kerry swift boat project during the 2004 Presidential campaign with fellow Viet Nam vets who were paid to travel around bashing Kerry as a lying coward regards Kerry's claims of being fired upon in his Viet Nam swift boat duties? You should read Corsi's education, military and intelligence background.

Before them all it was Paul Harvey. When I was just 21 I was employed as a landscape worker driving all around the city of Portland, Oregon maintaining commercial properties throughout the city. Every day our tough talking foreman would make sure we all had to listen to the Paul Harvey "and that's the rest of the story" noon time broadcasts on the one big truck we all had to ride in.

Using a mix of quaint humor or inspiring human interest stories just enough to call himself more a Norman Rockwellish story teller than a political propagandist, Harvey was clearly the precursor to Rush Limbaugh.

And as if this hugely funded and air waves saturated left bashing radio propaganda machine of the last 30 years wasn't enough, white America soon was soon given their very own nationally broadcast left/liberal/democratic party demonizing political view promoting TV show FOX NEWS to boot!

The power of both hugely funded media venues together in influencing and changing white American's political sentiments to the far right makes sense to me if you believe national media can do this. IMO, it can and has.

Especially if that's all you listen to or watch.

Edited November 12, 2020 by Joe Bauer

[Robert Burrows]

9 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

RB, exactly.

Thinking/wondering how white America has turned so far to the right politically the last 30 years.

Like most of us here I am old enough to remember back before this massive nationally broadcast right wing promoting, left wing demonizing, fear and anger inciting political talk radio propaganda campaign went all out 24/7 bananas, first with Limbaugh and soon enough a small army of similar copycat left demonizing talk show hosts. And curiously no left defending ones.

Paul Harvey was it.

Limbaugh's adeptness in riling up millions of listeners against the left could be measured and was found to be hugely successful in influencing white American public and political opinion.

Especially the white working class who have always made up the main listening audience ( by far ) of daytime talk radio. Millions of trades workers in their work trucks and workshops. Millions of others just driving in their cars running errands or in their homes doing chores.

Hungering for someone to be their voice and yell out to all America their personal pent up white American social and political frustrations, angers and fears.

It has been measured that 50 million Americans tune in and listen to national talk radio throughout the day and night. That is a huge audience. Talk radio is very impacting. More than most know.

For decades now, our national radio broadcast waves have been inundated with the likes of evangelical religious style right wing proselytizing, left wing demonizing celebrity characters such as Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, Mark Levin, Glenn Beck, Micheal Savage ( real name "Weiner",) Laura Ingraham, Mike Gallagher, Clyde Lewis, etc. etc. and for a few years in between even super patriots G.Gordon Liddy, Oliver North and conservative policy wonk Bill Bennett!

It's a laughably large and crowded field.

For sure greatly because it's an absolute gold mine lucrative gig!   Huge money.

Limbaugh makes what...25 million a year doing his thing? And these most well known others make millions a year also.

And throw in "super fringe" and super inciting Alex Jones ( millions of listeners also ) who would make you believe everything is a left wing QAnon type conspiracy and frequently has America's most well known and favorite Republican dirty trickster and also left conspiracy promoting Roger Stone on his broadcasts.  And there are still others in smaller regional area broadcast markets.

Every second or minute of the day or night all one has to do to catch these left/liberal/democrat demonizing talk shows is to simply turn on your AM radio and turn the dial. They're everywhere.

Even late night, huge audience Coast To Coast AM radio with host George Noory tends toward the right, frequently having on far right pundits such as Roger Stone and left conspiracy book writer "Dr." Jerome Corsi. You know Corsi, he was a promoter of the John Kerry swift boat project during the 2004 Presidential campaign with fellow Viet Nam vets who were paid to travel around bashing Kerry as a lying coward regards Kerry's claims of being fired upon in his Viet Nam swift boat duties? You should read Corsi's education, military and intelligence background.

Before them all it was Paul Harvey. When I was just 21 I was employed as a landscape worker driving all around the city of Portland, Oregon maintaining commercial properties throughout the city. Every day our tough talking foreman would make sure we all had to listen to the Paul Harvey "and that's the rest of the story" noon time broadcasts on the one big truck we all had to ride in.

Using a mix of quaint humor or inspiring human interest stories just enough to call himself more a Norman Rockwellish story teller than a political propagandist, Harvey was clearly the precursor to Rush Limbaugh.

And as if this hugely funded and air waves saturated left bashing radio propaganda machine of the last 30 years wasn't enough, white America soon was soon given their very own nationally broadcast left/liberal/democratic party demonizing political view promoting TV show FOX NEWS to boot!

The power of both hugely funded media venues together in influencing and changing white American's political sentiments to the far right makes sense to me if you believe national media can do this. IMO, it can and has.

All good points, Joe. I read this article when it was published back in 2018, and I thought that it explained how we got here very well.