W. Niederhut Posted August 15, 2021 Share Posted August 15, 2021 1 hour ago, Kirk Gallaway said: President Ghani of Afghanistan has now fled the capital leaving it completely open for the Taliban. ******* Absolutely right W. As I said, Biden was going to take a lot of heat for this. It's sort of a cheap shot that the Republicans and the media are delivering. You notice none of them are coming out for a massive military action to fight back one last time to salvage the 20 years. Though Biden's going to send more troops to assist in evacuation, which is technically a blunder that they'll also thrash him for. A President does this in the first year of office, so he has plenty of time to recover in the next 3 years. In the case of Biden, he's hoping his covid relief package, infrastructure bill and relative vaccination success, (most people understand Biden's not going to hold much sway over people who simply refuse to get vaccinated) offset the 20 year foreign policy embarrassment. Trump could have done this in his first year and won some begrudging approval from Democrats and would have looked brilliant with Middle America for breaking up the "stalemate" in Washington. But despite his campaign rhetoric, he didn't. Obama, if he had listened to Biden, could have also and lay the historic responsibility of these occupations where it belongs, on the Republicans, who initiated them. But he ended saddling the Democrats to another pro war party, which is a perception with a sizable number of people, that lasts to this day. Kirk, I'm thinking back on Robert Gates' memoir, where he wrote that Obama had "consistently made the correct calls in Afghanistan." But to what end? A decade and another $1 trillion later, the U.S. puppet regime in Afghanistan has collapsed like a sand castle at high tide. Should we have propped it up indefinitely? Rumsfeld started with a popular cluster bomb campaign over there in 2001 but never succeeded in establishing a viable government and army to fill the power vacuum that he created. Two years later, when Bush and Cheney were hellbent on invading Iraq, Colin Powell famously cited his "Pottery Barn Rule" to Dubya-- "Mr. President, if you break Iraq, you own it." Obviously, the same thing was true about Afghanistan. We broke it, then owned it for the past 20 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Bulman Posted August 15, 2021 Share Posted August 15, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, W. Niederhut said: Kirk, I'm thinking back on Robert Gates' memoir, where he wrote that Obama had "consistently made the correct calls in Afghanistan." But to what end? A decade and another $1 trillion later, the U.S. puppet regime in Afghanistan has collapsed like a sand castle at high tide. Should we have propped it up indefinitely? Rumsfeld started with a popular cluster bomb campaign over there in 2001 but never succeeded in establishing a viable government and army to fill the power vacuum that he created. Two years later, when Bush and Cheney were hellbent on invading Iraq, Colin Powell famously cited his "Pottery Barn Rule" to Dubya-- "Mr. President, if you break Iraq, you own it." Obviously, the same thing was true about Afghanistan. We broke it, then owned it for the past 20 years. I'm not well read on world politics. Just regarding reading on JFK in recent years I had to google Indonesia, I knew it was somewhere in South East Asia. Same with the Congo to locate it on a map, see major cities, though I knew it was somewhere in Africa. What I wonder about Afghanistan is didn't we learn anything from Russia? (kind of like maybe the French and Vietnam). Reading up a little on their occupation/war/withdrawal it seems they didn't make them into communists or stop the infighting. They really started in 1955, then all the way into the 80's. Maybe we did learn, kind of like from the French. A way to feed the war machine, the military industrial complex per Ike? Milestones: 1977–1980 - Office of the Historian (state.gov) If a country can't run itself without simply slaughtering it's citizens to maintain control, isn't that maybe a job for say the United Nations? I don't pretend to know these things. Edited August 16, 2021 by Ron Bulman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W. Niederhut Posted August 16, 2021 Share Posted August 16, 2021 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said: I'm not well read on world politics. Just regarding reading on JFK in recent years I had to google Indonesia, I knew it was somewhere in South East Asia. Same with the Congo to locate it on a map, see major cities, though I knew it was somewhere in Africa. What I wonder about Afghanistan is didn't we learn anything from Russia? (kind of like maybe the French and Vietnam). Reading up a little on their occupation/war/withdrawal it seems they didn't make them into communists or stop the infighting. They really started in 1955, then all the way into the 80's. Maybe we did learn, kind of like from the French. A way to feed the war machine, the military industrial complex per Ike? Milestones: 1977–1980 - Office of the Historian (state.gov) Ron, Do we ever learn from our huge policy mistakes here in the U.S.-- Vietnam, Iraq, trickle down economics, etc.? During the 2004 Presidential debates, Jim Lehrer asked George W. Bush and John Kerry what they believed to be "the lessons of Vietnam." (We were bogged down in a protracted occupation of Iraq at the time.) Dubya ducked the question. That's part of what concerns me about the current Afghanistan fiasco. Will politicians and the mainstream U.S. media try to inform the public about our 20 year Afghanistan boondoggle, or will they mainly focus on bashing Joe Biden about the final inglorious epilogue? Or worse, will we start hearing a bunch of Rambo mythology about how Biden could have "won the war" if he had only blown up more villages? Edited August 16, 2021 by W. Niederhut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Bulman Posted August 16, 2021 Share Posted August 16, 2021 In breaking news. . . After two decades and billions spent, Afghan government collapses as Taliban takes Kabul (msn.com) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 16, 2021 Share Posted August 16, 2021 $2TRN spent on the Afghan War 240k lives lost The objective was never to win, only to keep it going and make it last, for purely profit reasons. Tax payer pays for it, private corps pick up the profits and want it to last as long as possible. Defence contractors funding the blue & the red team, election after election. https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.php?Ind=D https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/social/corporate https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/39092315 Major General Smedley Butler’s “War is a racket” is as relevant as its ever been. As for Vietnam, it was the same thing. The war cost $120BN. https://www.jacobinmag.com/2018/06/namric-antiwar-research-vietnam-war https://www.counterpunch.org/2003/12/11/war-profiteering-from-vietnam-to-iraq/ The media won’t inform us, as it makes it harder to pull the wool over our eyes and play the trick again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Douglas Caddy Posted August 16, 2021 Share Posted August 16, 2021 Biden, the State Department and the Pentagon will be all blamed for this historic disaster and deservedly so. The next Gallup Poll will not be kind to Biden. His whole agenda is now in jeopardy. This could have been easily avoided. Rachel Maddow sounded the alarm five weeks ago and brought guests on her show to emphasize the imminent peril. I and my friends talked about it and were worried. The morale of the Democratic Party's rank and file will suffer greatly. I am both outraged and sickened by this development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Cole Posted August 16, 2021 Share Posted August 16, 2021 6 hours ago, Douglas Caddy said: Biden, the State Department and the Pentagon will be all blamed for this historic disaster and deservedly so. The next Gallup Poll will not be kind to Biden. His whole agenda is now in jeopardy. This could have been easily avoided. Rachel Maddow sounded the alarm five weeks ago and brought guests on her show to emphasize the imminent peril. I and my friends talked about it and were worried. The morale of the Democratic Party's rank and file will suffer greatly. I am both outraged and sickened by this development. Give Rachel Maddow some jodhpurs and high black boots. She wants her big epalauts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Andrews Posted August 16, 2021 Share Posted August 16, 2021 6 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said: Give Rachel Maddow some jodhpurs and high black boots. She wants her big epalauts. Rachel Maddow belongs in an Ayn Rand novel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Prutsok Posted August 16, 2021 Share Posted August 16, 2021 Looks like the final end result of our last 56 years continues to play out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Douglas Caddy Posted August 16, 2021 Share Posted August 16, 2021 New Woodward book demolishes Trump. https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/16/politics/bob-woodward-robert-costa-trump-book/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W. Niederhut Posted August 16, 2021 Share Posted August 16, 2021 17 hours ago, Douglas Caddy said: Biden, the State Department and the Pentagon will be all blamed for this historic disaster and deservedly so. The next Gallup Poll will not be kind to Biden. His whole agenda is now in jeopardy. This could have been easily avoided. Rachel Maddow sounded the alarm five weeks ago and brought guests on her show to emphasize the imminent peril. I and my friends talked about it and were worried. The morale of the Democratic Party's rank and file will suffer greatly. I am both outraged and sickened by this development. Doug, Have you seen this story? "“I started the process, all the troops are coming home, they (Biden) couldn’t stop the process. 21 years is enough." -- Donald Trump/ June 2021 https://t.co/Cd1DTRSbyO https://www.rawstory.com/trump-afghanistan-2654682057/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W. Niederhut Posted August 16, 2021 Share Posted August 16, 2021 And this one... https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2021/8/15/2046070/-Taliban-leader-and-top-commanders-are-among-the-5000-fighters-Trump-released-against-objections Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Bulman Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 9 hours ago, W. Niederhut said: And this one... https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2021/8/15/2046070/-Taliban-leader-and-top-commanders-are-among-the-5000-fighters-Trump-released-against-objections Trump invited the Taliban to Camp David? That's about stupid. Frees their leaders among 5,000 others and the quick takeover is Biden's fault for doing what he said he would? Was he setting Biden up? He'd already Lost the election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Douglas Caddy Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 (edited) Trump as president was Putin's agent and faithfully carried out the geopolitical strategy for Afghanistan that was given to him to implement. Biden was indeed set up but he apparently willingly walked into the trap the had been devised in Russia, which decades ago lost its war in Afghanistan but learned important lessons from that experience. However, even Putin could not have foreseen the totally incompetent way Biden would implement the U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan. This morning on Morning Joe the Pentagon's spokesman said that two weeks ago the Pentagon in a secure room was running a rehearsal for withdrawal with emphasis on saving those Afghans who had helped us. Two weeks ago the Pentagon should have been airlifting those persons out of the country, not running a rehearsal. China now knows that it can take Taiwan and any American military effort to stop this will end in a debacle for us. China does not think America would escalate the confrontation into nuclear war. Edited August 17, 2021 by Douglas Caddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Douglas Caddy Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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