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The inevitable end result of our last 56 years


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Chris is always judging everything in the  U,S.  from up on the moon where "everything's everything" and making broad proclamations so he can hide the fact that he can't answer any of the most basic nuts and bolts questions about U.S. politics with any real specificity .He holds the distinction of being the only person on the forum to swallow the big lie the day following the election. Ben isn't quite as clueless because he can pool all of his 3 authors who basically think the same.

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Good to see this thread hasn't moved at all in about 10 months.

 

https://mark-skidmore.com/2021/11/06/dr-peter-doshis-remarkable-speech-everybody-knows/

 

Demoncrats are apparently the champions of bio-fascism and a total surveillance state. Whatever civil rights killing policy that flows from BlackRock/WEF to their corporations to their agents like Biden/Trudeau will be applauded by certain people at this point regardless of the US Constitution. The propaganda is simply too thick for these people to realize they are being lied to. 

Apparently, the 14th Amendment is now cancelled in Colorado by Democrats and this is ok with them. Although I do not believe voting is the answer, I will never vote for any candidate that does not make it clear they are against mandates and passports/digital identity, regardless of whether they are D or R or Trump or whatever else they call themselves. If you do not realize this is the goal of these globalists then you are simply creating your own comfortable narrative out of intentional distractions/misdirections that are not relevant to the critical fight of our time. It is clear that Trump was/is one of the misdirections, just as Biden/Faucci is for those who still somehow think he cares about any Americans.

 

https://beckernews.com/dem-governor-signs-executive-order-to-turn-away-unvaccinated-from-hospitals-and-prioritize-treatment-to-vaccinated-patients-42917/

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Economist Michael Hudson really let it rip this past week with a detailed breakdown of the compromises associated with the Biden infrastructure bill, where the progressive impulse cultivated by the Democratic Party collapsed into a series of tax giveaways directed to the Dem’s donor constituency. Hudson writes caustically that the institutional “Democratic role is to protect the Republican party from challenges from the left.”

“The current Democratic impasse shows that no progress can be made without changing the institutional structure of American politics. It seems that the only way to do this is to make sure that the Democratic Party loses so irrevocably in 2022 and 2024 that it is dissolved enough to enable the Progressives to revive the near corpse.”

Michael Hudson - Is This the End of the Unreformable Democratic Party?

https://www.counterpunch.org/2021/11/05/is-this-the-end-of-the-unreformable-democratic-party/

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David Rothkopf: American politics in a nutshell:


--Progressivism--The source of all ideas being considered to help Americans 

--Centrism--Watering down progressive ideas 

--Conservatism--Blocking progressive ideas and condemning them as socialist

--Trumpism--Racism, misogyny, hate 
Edited by W. Niederhut
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5 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Chris,

     IMO, there is no meaningful equivalence between the sheer volume and extent of disinformation and mass ignorance on the right and "left" sides of the political spectrum in the U.S. today.

     Consider some facts.

1)     Donald Trump told more than 30,000 well-documented lies during his Presidency.  There's nothing remotely comparable to Trump's habitual mendacity in American Presidential history.

2)     What is worse, Trump's daily litany of lies was routinely amplified throughout the right wing media-- Fox, Breitbart, Gateway Pundit, etc.-- and on social media.  His Big Lies about the election and the January 6th coup attempt are only the most recent examples.

3)    Fox News has been rated by fact checking organizations like Politico as the most mendacious of cable news sources.

4)    Fox viewers are the most poorly informed about the real news in various surveys.

 

Hi William, 

Thanks for answering. This the problem that's being highlighted in another post. You're using the word 'facts" and the whole institution of government and those reporting on it in this day and age is a tissue of lies IMHO. 

1) The question regarding those 30K lies. we first need to identify what is a half truth and what has zero truth. At that stage we can then analyse every other president and put it in context, so we are on an even footing. We then still have the question; why are we buying into a political system littered with lies, deception and corruption? If we take a side, does that mean by proxy that we are willing to settle for the person who is the least dishonest? The reason many of us buy into JFK and care about it, is that from our understanding, he was a guy with good intentions (mostly) and he was a victim of fascism (perhaps). Is it a farce that we sit arguing who is the least deceitful out of Trump/Hilary or Trump/Biden? Would our time and thinking be better allocated to changing a system or forcing change via withdrawal of our consent and making our dissatisfaction known? Instead, we're here saying 'my team is better than your team". 

2) His litany of lies again needs to be put in context as per the above answer. I consider him to be the most shameless, the others still tell lies, they are just more artful at it and subtle, like they are in the UK. We're still essentially talking about two XXXXX each election. Unless of course you have some honourable candidates or former presidents that you like to reference as pure? 


3) A couple of things, Fox is required a counterpoint, for this whole system to endure. Its back to these two choices and which you like the sound of best. We could remove Fox and another counterpoint would be required for this ruse to endure. That may sound like conspiracy talk but, you are aware of the 9 conglomerates that own all of the worlds MSM (approximately). If you still believe in CNN or FOX as either being honest, do you then assume that they are not top down structures? That people on a lower level of decision making overrule people at a higher strata? As for fact checking sites, I work in PR, I know the value of any endorsements, and how to shape public opinion. Anyone could learn that by reading 3 or 4 books. I would contest that fact checking sites serve an honest purpose. The human mind will assume because thousands of truths and facts are on such a site that all of the content must be fact but, the reality is they could get away with 20% being lies and most people would assume the 20% was also truths. As they don't look at the funding of such sites or have a clue how corruption can take place. 

In your opinion, is divide and rule strategy being used on the American public? What does your logic tell you is happening?

4) Same again, which surveys? How were they structured, what were the variables. What did the pre-election surveys tell you vs reality? Those parameters dictate the results. Unless we understand those things, how can we know if they are honest? I haven't seen CNN or FOX breaking them down for people on an objective way. re they relying on the public to be too stupid and lazy to understand? This system permits networks and governments to use supporting data that may or may not be true. I'd be interested if with a keen eye for scrutiny you questioned the practices of CNN or your favourite sources of news. If we are to achieve a balanced viewpoint, don't we need to be doing both? If we only scrutinise the perceived villain, and never the perceived hero, we never know if our hero is indeed the virtuous. If we consider all of the US wars in five or 6 decades, in real time we assumed America was the hero or the virtuous, fighting for good, democracy and liberty. However, as time passed we've realised they often were the antagonist, not the hero. The reason that happened is that we have societies directed only to focus on the perceived villain. If we'd looked inwardly at the time these conflicts were starting to escalate, they could have been avoided, as society may have seen they are not the hero. 

What do you reckon?

Cheers

Chris

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Chris,

   Trump's daily litany of lies have been exhaustively documented on a weekly-to-monthly basis during the past five years-- most notably by Glenn Kessler.   The details are damning.

Trump Lied More Than 30,000 Times During His Presidency. No Wonder We’re Exhausted.

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2021/01/donald-trump-thirty-thousand-lies/

   Something is terribly wrong with our society if we can no longer even agree that an obvious lie is a lie-- or claim that "both sides" engage in the same behavior, to the same extent.  They don't.

   Of course, in the absence of intellectual honesty, people can endlessly claim that honest "fact checkers," themselves, aren't telling the truth-- regardless of the clear documentation of mendacity.  What bunk!

    Tucker Carlson's new, "Patriot Purge" documentary is a case in point.  It's falsified history--disinformation-- served up to a delusional cult to deny the fact that Trump and his associates conspired to obstruct the certification of an election.

    And, sadly, a substantial percentage of the U.S. population actually believe this stuff.  Many of them in a recent poll even believe that violence is necessary to overthrow our Constitutional democracy in the U.S.

Carlson's Gaslighting Is About More Than The Insurrection

When the November 2021 election results end up with eight people who participated in the insurrection elevated to public office as Republicans, the cold reality hits: Disinformation works.

https://crooksandliars.com/2021/11/tucker-carlson-patriot-purge

  

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11 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Chris,

   Trump's daily litany of lies have been exhaustively documented on a weekly-to-monthly basis during the past five years-- most notably by Glenn Kessler.   The details are damning.

Trump Lied More Than 30,000 Times During His Presidency. No Wonder We’re Exhausted.

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2021/01/donald-trump-thirty-thousand-lies/

   Something is terribly wrong with our society if we can no longer even agree that an obvious lie is a lie-- or claim that "both sides" engage in the same behavior, to the same extent.  They don't.

   Of course, in the absence of intellectual honesty, people can endlessly claim that honest "fact checkers," themselves, aren't telling the truth-- regardless of the clear documentation of mendacity.  What bunk!

    Tucker Carlson's new, "Patriot Purge" documentary is a case in point.  It's falsified history--disinformation-- served up to a delusional cult to deny the fact that Trump and his associates conspired to obstruct the certification of an election.

    And, sadly, a substantial percentage of the U.S. population actually believe this stuff.  Many of them in a recent poll even believe that violence is necessary to overthrow our Constitutional democracy in the U.S.

Carlson's Gaslighting Is About More Than The Insurrection

When the November 2021 election results end up with eight people who participated in the insurrection elevated to public office as Republicans, the cold reality hits: Disinformation works.

https://crooksandliars.com/2021/11/tucker-carlson-patriot-purge

  

Hi William, 

I believe you are a smart guy, at times on here you have certainly demonstrated that. I am going to analyse your reply above and tell you what I think.

- At times, we can all be guilty on here of avoiding questions, I think I asked some pertinent ones and made some points. It looks like you've just avoided all of that and come back with FOX FOX FOX, TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP, which really just doubles down and washes over the intellectual discussions that are there to be had. 
- In my opinion assessing the text and tone (which is open to interpretation), you are just come back with passion, as it it reinforces the initial argument. It doesn't at all. Someone said one that "nothing is black and white, everything is grey". I believe you want absolutes. Clean cut divides in these discussions and they don't exist. I just see two teams ignoring any failures of their party and slinging mud at the opposition, my team is better than your team. That is not an adult conversation, it's a juvenile one, it's very basic. 
- The whole system is rotten to the core and for many Dems it all boils down to it being Fox & Trumps fault. To me, it's completely insignificant. Your system offers up the worst two candidates every time. They all lie. Can the most important thing to you really be who told the most lies? Can we really sit there and not think about how many lies LBJ, Nixon, the Bushes or Clinton told in eras where there was less recorded data, and it wasn't at the touch of a button. As previously stated, they are open to interpretation. You believe 9/11 and JFKA were conspiracies. Your fact checkers disagree. You can't see a bigger picture. 

My question is; do you want to see it? I have a psychologist friend here who I speak with regularly about current affairs in a social environment. He's a smart guy, went to a top university, also has a law degree. He thought I was saying something way out of left field in regard to certain conspiracies. He didn't disregard my opinions, as everything else I'd said to him in discussion on multiple topics had been consistent and intelligent conversation. So, he went away and studied what I had said, and came to the same conclusions I did. He confessed, and said now that he sees the corruption, he can't un-see it. 

Here are some things I wrote previously in a thread. How many of the following impair your judgment? 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

1). CONFIRMATION BIAS 
The tendency to process information by looking for, or interpreting, information that is consistent with one's existing beliefs. We all do this and it's the hardest one to resist. How many of us have read JFK books one after another, without purchasing any that make the contrary case to our beliefs? 

2). GROUPTHINK
Groupthink is a phenomenon that occurs when a group of individuals reaches a consensus without critical reasoning or evaluation of the consequences or alternatives. Groupthink is based on a common desire not to upset the balance of a group of people. It's significantly easier to fall in line with the herd and not risk being ostracised for expressing different ideas and theories. There is less risk and it allows us to be intellectually lazy and feel safe in our group views. For anyone doubting this, see the Soloman Asche experiments proving the case. 

3). COGNITIVE DISSONANCE
Cognitive dissonance is a theory in social psychology. It refers to the mental conflict that occurs when a person's behaviours and beliefs do not align. It may also happen when a person holds two beliefs that contradict one another. The state is fundamentally good, you vote for their representatives, but, the state seems to have been involved in the JFK assassination. One of them can't be true, which is it? If it can happen with JFKA, why can't it happen again, and again in different ways? We face the same mental conflict each time where we default back to the state as the good guys that we voted for. What if they are not? 

4). DOUBLETHINK
The acceptance of contradictory ideas at the same time, especially as a result of political indoctrination. The word comes from George Orwell in 1949 in his book titled "1984". This can only happen if people have abandoned critical thinking and their trust in those who supply them with information is completely blind. 
ie We're going to bomb democracy into Iraq because they might be linked to 9/11, destroy the country, kill a million Iraqi's, steal their oil, and it's going to make American's safer. 

5). PATRIOTISM AND THE FLAG
With societies heavily conditioned by the flag and the nation, if the perpetrators of a conspiracy are seen as patriots, it is very hard for the average person to see any wrong in them. This is the exact reason Presidents and candidates are photographed with the flag. It cements that they are the same as us in the public psyche. We are much more likely to vote for a candidate who talks of his sacrifices in the military and how much he loves this nation. Just about everyone watching Fox has a firearm and flag, ready to defend the nation. Perceived patriots are the last people suspected of a conspiracy, they are seen as loyal. 

6). PHILANTHROPY 
It's in the PR handbook if you are a wealthy elite or political candidate. You must be seen as charitable and doing good in society. JD Rockefeller famously got reporters to film him giving dimes to children for the news. The public perception was that he was a kind old man, and not a guy using his foundation to fund eugenics movements and further spread his influence in business, science and academia. The playbook is the same whether it's the Carnegie, Rockefeller, Clinton or the Gates Foundations. Donors are private, you get tax breaks and it goes under the guise of doing something good. If the accused in a conspiracy is appearing to give lots of wealth away, regardless of our financial naivety as to how much they are making, we find it abhorrent that a perceived kind person is being accused of conspiracy or impropriety. Again, we need to cast emotions aside and examine the facts. 

7). RELIGION
This is waning for children now but, many of us grew up entirely indoctrinated by religion, sitting through a school assembly of conditioning and brainwashing. We came out of it with morality and conscience. Every election we hear how devout a candidates faith is and how important it is to him/her as a guiding force. We can't help but think that's wonderful, something they have in common with us. When such a person is accused of a conspiracy or corruption, we can't even comprehend it as they have the same religious values as us. Our mind seldom lets us accept the notion of their guilt. 

8). INTELLIGENCE QUOTIENT 
If your IQ is less than 90, you can't even polish someone's boots in the US Army. The average IQ is 100. If your IQ is low, you're going to have to see a conspiracy step by step with your own eyes to believe and accept it. If your IQ is 95, you're not going to have the same faculties as someone who has an IQ of 167 to see and understand a conspiracy taking place. Some things will occur to one person, that another can never be able to comprehend. That's life. 

9). REPETITION OF LIES
A wise man once said, that if a lie is told enough times, it becomes the truth. This is a fundamental rule of propaganda and psychological warfare. Unfortunately, some of us are more susceptible to this than others. If the perpetrators of a conspiracy have the media on their side, most of the population will nod like psychiatric patients who are high as a kite. After some time, the proportion of the population who believe otherwise will be very small. Maybe the same proportion that was put in gulags or executed in the Soviet Union, Maoist China, Cambodia and North Korea. When intellectuals are speaking out against the state, worry. 

10). RELEVANT LIFE EXPERIENCE
Most of us don't have the first clue how ruthless it is in business, or an inkling of the tricks and deceptions used to achieve in that world. There are many tricks and cons that people in that world use to achieve their goals, that they see every day. When they catch a rival using them, they laugh, an acknowledgement they are in the game. The masses are completely asleep to such deceptions, they play out time and time again. They'll leave the average person thinking they just got a deal, the reality is they had their pants pulled down. Even Machiavelli's "The Prince" doesn't cover a fraction of these tricks but, it's certainly worth a read. I live in a tax haven, I listened to a ruthless proprietor of an offshore trust company negotiating with a local painter (decorator). The finance guy was conning the decorator something chronic, I called across the bar to the decorator "Dave, you could get £500 more for that", the other guy called me the FC-word combo. Don't assume because you are smart in your field that you understand the array of skills educated elites use. If you think you're immune to being conned by a conspiracy, you'll need to be seriously switched on and familiar with the techniques, most of us aren't. 

11). PSYCHOLOGY DEFICIENCY
If you don't understand why you do the things you do or, why human beings do the things they do, what hope do you have or identifying a conspiracy? You need a basic understanding of human psychology to evaluate the behaviour and actions of a possible conspirator. You can't see behavioural patterns if you don't know what to look for. This is absolutely vital education.

12). IGNORANCE OF HISTORY
History is cyclical, it repeats itself. "Those who are ignorant of history are destined to repeat it". In my opinion, if you're very well-read in historical terms, it equips you almost as well as the psychology. You'll see patterns, the same moves, repetition and be conscious of when a conspiracy is happening in real-time. If you're unaware of history, your chances of identifying a conspiracy are close to zero. Human history may be short in the scheme of the age of the planet but, there is plenty to educate yourself and observe the same surreptitious behaviour over and over again. 

13). LACKING THE BIGGER PICTURE
It's no secret as with IQ, there is a disparity in human beings when it comes to the attributes to do certain things. Some of us will be strong at one thing and incompetent at another. Most of us will look at world events in isolation, with a myopic view and no context. A small proportion of people will be very good at seeing the bigger picture, those with incredibly analytical minds. They'll see patterns, commonalities and connect things. Their very logical minds are alerted by their subconscious, that something doesn't look right or fit logic. Those people go to the end of the earth with analysis looking for answers and, they draw a conclusion that is probable and logical. Not many of us have the cognitive function to do that. Those guys will identify a conspiracy. 

14). PRODUCTION QUALITY
We are so used to CNN, SKY, FOX, BBC etc producing our news with very high production quality and a huge budget, that when we're communicated to by other sources with a modest budget who may be saying very valuable things, we instinctively doubt it because it doesn't look like what we're used to. People buy into a news brand like they would their favourite car or golf clubs, after a while, we develop blindness to everything else. Take everything on its merit and critically think, weighing up all sides. Don't be dazed and confused by special effects and fancy delivery. It's the truth that counts. 

15). VIDEO, TELEVISION, BOOKS & COMICS SHAPING THOUGHTS
From tiny children, we read comics, watch cartoons, watch TV, read books, watch films and they all have this good vs evil narrative. There is a virtuous good guy who wins, or a CIA, 007 or military guy who saves the world. Whether you realise it or not, we're conditioned to that as a reality and because it fits our moral value set, we feel good when the inevitable happy ending comes. In the exceptions where it doesn't, we feel sad, unhappy, like an injustice has taken place, it leaves us upset. All a government needs to do to perpetuate a conspiracy is propagate the message that they are on the side of the good guys, the righteous. If any conspiracy appears as well-intentioned, the public will support it, as their value set from media is geared up to do that. If you can make the victim the archetypal villain, you've done 90% of the job. We hear words like "undemocratic", "anti-freedom" and "against liberty" when it concerns countries, not pro-UK/US/Israel trade deals that exploit them and when someone is a friend of the UK, Israel or US, they're a democracy and they believe in freedom and liberty. We sit there and say; "my life is good, those guys don't believe in that, we need to change that or they'll take our freedoms away". Our media prevents us from seeing whether we are the hero or the villain in any situation. It manufactures consent for us to use taxpayers money to line the pockets of a handful of companies who do best when there is a war on the go. Our psyche is super susceptible to this manipulation and it plays out in perpetuity. 

16). ASSUMING WEALTHY PEOPLE THINK AS YOU DO
Given the American wealthy elite might be 1% of the population or less, how many of you encounter these people regularly and understand the way they think and how ruthless they are in business? You're trained to be an obedient worker, a cog in a machine that has an output for other people. Why would you assume they think the same? Because of well-polished PR and less than forthright public demeanour? Simple PR makes you think they're the good guys. 

17). FEAR
Those who get a conspiracy theory wrong, never regain their reputation amongst family, friends, work colleagues etc. You can side with the state and the state can be wrong over and over again, yet you don't lose face. For the conspiracy theorists its social suicide being on the wrong side. This prevents people from raising concerns and thinking outside of the box. 

18). THE POWER OF CELEBRITY
Whether we know it or not, we gravitate to people we like, admire and look up to. We create a bias and these celebrities are often used to deliver messages to the public. Because we have these celebs on a pedestal, corporations and governments often hire or co-opt them to enhance their message, as it's so effective. If your favourite athlete or actor says LHO killed JFK and anyone else is a tinfoil hat wearer, you're likely to go along with it. It's incredibly effective marketing. What we often don't understand is the upside for the very financially driven celebrities to jump on the bandwagon. They want to further their network and increase their earning potential and aspire to being part of the elite. Their PR agent will actively encourage them to take this line. With Insta, FB, Twitter and TikTok, and them having millions of followers, their endorsement is worth its weight in gold. 

19). THE CABAL 
We, hook, line and sinker, buy into the idea that red or blue is everything (in the UK too), we invest our emotions, hope and aspirations in these people who don't care about you or me. They're the guys that cut our healthcare, send us to some hellish foreign land to die in a ditch with a rifle, or sell us products that give us cancer. They're the guys that tell us we're destroying the environment while they profit from oil shares. They tell us we're destroying the oceans while they profit from the last saleable fish being mopped up. They tell us population is the worlds biggest problem while they have 6 kids and fly about in private jets. They tell us GM foods are healthy while they eat only organic. They drink deuterium free water while telling us ours dosed up with fluoride, is fine. Despite all this, we trust that the president or prime minister is the highest authority in the land and cannot be corrupted. This is one of the main reasons people don't see conspiracies. They believe in these demi-gods offering salvation through well-scripted dialogues organised by PR experts. Yet, we live with the very real reality of Napoleon Bonaparte's definition of madness; "people doing the same thing over and over, yet expecting different results". Every election we get a choice of Pepsi & Coke, hope & change, make America great again. 4 years later we sit there bought into the same pantomime. It never dawns on us that its theatre. That the status quo for the elites is the same, regardless of red or blue. It doesn't matter how many times they fail us, we're ready to believe in the next one who offers hope. How stupid are we really? We're like kids at a magic show seeing rabbits being pulled from hats, starry eyed and delusional. If you're not going to acknowledge the reason we only have two prominent parties, the reason we have such little choice in policy is a fix, then what hope do we have in seeing any conspiracy? 

20). WE CAN"T ACCEPT THE WORLD AS IT IS
Many of us don't like to believe the world is a bad place, that it's unfair or unjust, or that those we trust in politics could betray us. It's the red pill, the blue pill choice. Escapism is easier in the short term, but, leads to long term misery. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Cheers

Chris 

PS. I am open minded enough to discuss which have impaired by thinking, past and potentially present. 

 

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Chris,

1 minute ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Liz Cheney Compares Jan. 6 Conspiracies To Notion That ‘9/11 Was An Inside Job’

Marisa Dellatto
Forbes Staff

Well, Ben, since Liz Cheney's father was an integral part of the Project for a New American Century, I can, certainly, understand why she would want to disparage the 9/11 Truth data as a kooky "conspiracy theory."

More false equivalence-- the bane of this thread.

But that, in itself, doesn't validate the "Patriot Purge" nonsense claiming that Trump's January 6th coup attempt was a Deep State false flag. 

It reminds me of the numerous propaganda articles in the M$M lately that lump all "conspiracy theories" -- including the JFKA and 9/11--into a single kooky basket, with QAnon, et.al.

Logically speaking, Ben, your fallacy here is;

P implies Q.

-P, therefore -Q.

CHRIS, I'm familiar with all of your above talking points and psychology terms, but your error is false equivalence.

Do politicians throughout the spectrum sometimes lie?  Yes.

But that doesn't mean that their mendacity is comparable to what we have seen in Trump's case, or in the case of Rupert Murdoch's propaganda empire (Fox, NYPost, WSJ) and the right wing media during the past 30 years-- following the abolition of the Fairness Act in the U.S.

There was a time when our major television news anchors in the U.S. -- Brokaw, Jennings, Rather, McNeil/Lehrer-- accurately informed the public.  I think you would have to have lived here in the U.S. during the past 50 years or more to understand how drastically things have changed.

The driving force behind our political degeneration has been the corporate plutocracy, and the consolidation of the mass media.  In the end, the modern era Robber Barons are mainly interested in further enriching themselves-- through low tax rates, de-regulation, (including opposition to environmental protection) and reduced spending on utilitarian programs that benefit the public.

The Koch/GOP plutocrats bought the U.S. (Tea Party) House in 2010, and they bought the Senate in 2014.  In a sense, they still control the Senate (50 GOP Senators + Manchin + Sinema.)

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8 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

 

CHRIS, I'm familiar with all of your above talking points and psychology terms, but your error is false equivalence.

Do politicians throughout the spectrum sometimes lie?  Yes.

But that doesn't mean that their mendacity is comparable to what we have seen in Trump's case, or in the case of Rupert Murdoch's propaganda empire (Fox, NYPost, WSJ) and the right wing media during the past 30 years-- following the abolition of the Fairness Act in the U.S.

There was a time when our major television news anchors in the U.S. -- Brokaw, Jennings, Rather, McNeil/Lehrer-- accurately informed the public.  I think you would have to have lived here in the U.S. during the past 50 years or more to understand how drastically things have changed.

The driving force behind our political degeneration has been the corporate plutocracy, and the consolidation of the mass media.  In the end, the modern era Robber Barons are mainly interested in further enriching themselves-- through low tax rates, de-regulation, (including opposition to environmental protection) and reduced spending on utilitarian programs that benefit the public.

The Koch/GOP plutocrats bought the U.S. (Tea Party) House in 2010, and they bought the Senate in 2014.  In a sense, they still control the Senate (50 GOP Senators + Manchin + Sinema.)

Hi William, 

Well, again you are avoiding questions. Which of those in the list are impairing your judgement? I would expect some are present in all of us. Have you considered for a moment that what you perceive as false equivalence may be reality? It may just have taken someone so outspoken and crass like Trump for you to see the lies. What if your worship of the state or its institutions is so powerful that you can't see its shortcomings? It's entirely possible if subscribe to the ideas of Nietzsche and the death of god. 

What if your concept of right and left, blue and red is all theatre? That it has no intrinsic meaning in this age. You surely see the continuity for big business, banking, pharma, the military etc? What are you voting for, hope, of because it makes you feel like you are doing something? 

This 50 years where I haven't lived in the US, you are watching the fall of an empire, from its height to its end. We saw the same thing with the Greeks, the Romans and the British, they have a period of tremendous progress, they peak and fall into decay and then collapse. What you are seeing right now is the decay, where it becomes a cesspool of corruption. The timing actually probably coincides with the end days of capitalism. and what Marx predicted, government institutions being harvested by plutocrats and oligarchs. I do have a newsflash for you, in many ways this decay isn't just in the US, it's in Europe too. I socialise with German's, Austrians, French and Swiss, who have all come to escape the EU. They all tell the same tale, their countries and cultures are becoming unrecognisable, they all blame globalism and corruption. I think in most of this we find common ground. 

Given that which we agree on. Why is your focus on debating Trump stuff, his lies, misdeeds etc. Why isn't your focus on the present and future? There is so much happening right now and how many lies Trump told seems so irrelevant. It matters little whether you get him back in or Joe again or, the VP who escapes my mind right now. The certainty is that things will keep getting worse, and these oligarchs will keep stealing and milking this system until it falls. The whole crux of my argument and my surprise is that buying into the red blue thing is irrelevant and a waste of time. As the people ruling don't have colours, they don't love America, or the flag, they just care about wealth and control. The aim and ire should be at them, not the caretaker every 4 years, who just nods and peddles the latest lies. 

The more people who wake up, and stop buying into this state and media created division of society, the better. That's the only chance of a better country or world. I don't want to sound like a broken record but, a lot of this was in RFK's South Africa speech. We're all being baited to take aim at eachother, not at the people really causing the problems we want to solve. 

Cheers,

Chris

 

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W.--

My guess is that your version of 9/11 is a false narrative, but that the JFKA and 1.6 events had hidden hands operating.  

But hey, each to his own, and even though I have made an educated guess in these matters, I am not omniscient. 

I do note that Liz Cheney and George Bush jr. are the new heroes of the corporate "liberal" M$M.  

To which I say, "Oh, P.U." 

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11 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

W.--

My guess is that your version of 9/11 is a false narrative, but that the JFKA and 1.6 events had hidden hands operating.  

 

You speak in ignorance, sir, as a man who has, obviously, not studied, or understood, the scholarly 9/11 research.

And "liberals" are hardly embracing the political legacy of Bush, Cheney, and the disastrous Project for a New American Century.

The fact that we approve of Liz Cheney's honest, appropriate stand about investigating Trump's appalling January 6th coup attempt doesn't mean that "liberals" approve of Dick Cheney's legacy-- fracking, Reaganomic tax cuts for billionaires, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, etc.

As for the tendency to falsely equate the values, policy agendas, and media of progressive Democrats and the Trump/Koch GOP, it's absurd.

The examples are legion-- in policy issues ranging from healthcare to education, environmental protection, and climate change mitigation.

Take healthcare, for example.  Obama and the Democrats established the first universal healthcare framework in American history in 2009 by passing the ACA.  It was the first attempt at U.S. healthcare reform since Clinton's failed attempt in 1993-- 16 years earlier!  (Unfortunately, Max Baucus, Joe Lieberman, and all GOP Senators sabotaged the "public option" provision of the ACA in the Senate Finance Committee.)

In response to the passage of the ACA, the Koch brothers spent millions on television ads urging Americans not to enroll in the ACA plans.  Fox News repeatedly lied about the ACA in their "coverage" of the issue.  Then the Koch-funded Tea Party GOP House repeatedly passed bills to abolish Obamacare after the 2010 election.  Ultimately, the GOP-controlled Congress attached a provision in their December 2017 Tax Cuts for Billionaires bill to abolish the individual mandate of the ACA-- to sabotage the public health.

There is no meaningful equivalence between progressive Democrats in America today and the Koch-funded GOP. None.

The main political legacy of the GOP since 1980 has been; 1) multi-trillion dollar imperialist wars, 2) pollution, and 3) a gargantuan national debt created by recurrent tax cuts for billionaires.

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1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

You speak in ignorance, sir, as a man who has, obviously, not studied, or understood, the scholarly 9/11 research.

And "liberals" are hardly embracing the political legacy of Bush, Cheney, and the disastrous Project for a New American Century.

The fact that we approve of Liz Cheney's honest, appropriate stand about investigating Trump's appalling January 6th coup attempt doesn't mean that "liberals" approve of Dick Cheney's legacy-- fracking, Reaganomic tax cuts for billionaires, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, etc.

As for the tendency to falsely equate the values, policy agendas, and media of progressive Democrats and the Trump/Koch GOP, it's absurd.

The examples are legion-- in policy issues ranging from healthcare to education, environmental protection, and climate change mitigation.

Take healthcare, for example.  Obama and the Democrats established the first universal healthcare framework in American history in 2009 by passing the ACA.  It was the first attempt at U.S. healthcare reform since Clinton's failed attempt in 1993-- 16 years earlier!  (Unfortunately, Max Baucus, Joe Lieberman, and all GOP Senators sabotaged the "public option" provision of the ACA in the Senate Finance Committee.)

In response to the passage of the ACA, the Koch brothers spent millions on television ads urging Americans not to enroll in the ACA plans.  Fox News repeatedly lied about the ACA in their "coverage" of the issue.  Then the Koch-funded Tea Party GOP House repeatedly passed bills to abolish Obamacare after the 2010 election.  Ultimately, the GOP-controlled Congress attached a provision in their December 2017 Tax Cuts for Billionaires bill to abolish the individual mandate of the ACA-- to sabotage the public health.

There is no meaningful equivalence between progressive Democrats in America today and the Koch-funded GOP. None.

The main political legacy of the GOP since 1980 has been; 1) multi-trillion dollar imperialist wars, 2) pollution, and 3) a gargantuan national debt created by recurrent tax cuts for billionaires.

W, W, W,--

There are different perspectives on events with unseen hands such as the JFKA, 9/11, and 1.6.

And different people have different takes on the modern-day Democratic Party.

Yes, I think the Donks have become fully corporatized, and embedded into the global security state, along with allied media. To me, this seems obvious. 

The 'Phants are little better, although interestingly Tucker Carlson and Pat Buchanan often raise challenge to Deep State global ambitions. 

As I said, I am not omniscient. I disagree with some of your thoughts on the matters. 

I welcome your views.

 

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