JFK's Limo Windshield from National Archives---No Holes Barred

[Jim Phelps]

Ref   https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305143?fbclid=IwAR1j2AR8R8FCTjdBOkphcBJDyIFVVuz6CYERqvUBOwhh0iBZHpP-_lt6J-o

No Holes:

[Greg Wagner]

Hey, Jim. I don't have a strong opinion on the windshield. Whether or not there was a bullet hole in it doesn't impact my understanding of the assassination in any meaningful way. But it's certainly an interesting question.

I don't know if there was a bullet hole in the windshield. I do know that government lies to the people constantly. I do know the Warren Commission was complete fiction, designed to assign the blame to Oswald and Oswald alone (your photo is CE351). I do know the FBI manipulated evidence, falsified statements and intimidated witnesses. You'll have to forgive me if I don't simply accept an FBI / Warren Commission photograph as authentic. Could it be? Sure. Do I think it is simply because they say so? As the kids say, LOL.

But I don't question the authenticity of the photo simply because the government are li@r$, with a track record of deception and obfuscation in this case. It's that the assertion there was no bullet hole in the windshield is in direct conflict with the observations of nine witnesses. The FBI, the Warren Commission, you, me and anyone else considering this were not there. These nine people were there during the assassination or the immediate aftermath (albeit Whitaker's story is, I believe, uncorroborated), had a good look at the windshield, and stated there was a bullet hole in it. That carries a lot of weight with me. Were all nine of them lying or mistaken?

• Stavis Ellis, DPD
• HR Freeman, DPD
• Evalea Glanges, nursing student at Parkland
• Joe Paolella, Secret Service
• Charles Taylor, Jr, Secret Service
• Richard Dudman, St Louis Post-Dispatch
• Frank Cormier, St Louis Post-Dispatch
• George Whitaker, Sr, Ford Motor Company
• Bill Greer (told to Nick Prencipe, US Parks Police)

 

Edited October 14, 2020 by Greg Wagner

[Pamela Brown]

On 10/13/2020 at 10:41 PM, Jim Phelps said:

Ref   https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305143?fbclid=IwAR1j2AR8R8FCTjdBOkphcBJDyIFVVuz6CYERqvUBOwhh0iBZHpP-_lt6J-o

No Holes:

That is a close-up of the known defect on the windshield.  The large cracks are from the Arlington Glass men kicking the windshield out with their feet.  So much for preserving evidence.

 

[John Butler]

I don't think it is the same windshield.  Adjusting for angles the spot for the defect in Altgens 6 and 7 appear to be the same.  Altgens 6 looks like a hole.  That is very similar to other photos showing gunshots through a windshield.  They have roughly the same shape. 

There are no radiating cracks in the windshield in either photo.

Edited October 16, 2020 by John Butler

[Greg Wagner]

12 hours ago, Pamela Brown said:

That is a close-up of the known defect on the windshield.  The large cracks are from the Arlington Glass men kicking the windshield out with their feet.  So much for preserving evidence.

 

Hi Pamela. The handling of the evidence in this case was stunningly negligent, even criminal in some instances. I know you've done a lot of work on the limo and I apologize if you've already addressed this, but what's your take on this bullet hole business?

To my knowledge, George Whitaker's account has neither been corroborated nor disproved. That's quite a story to accept without some kind of proof.

You could make the case that Taylor just used imprecise language when he called it a "hole." I believe you made a similar point in a prior post somewhere (going from memory though, which is dangerous). In any case, I think it's a valid point.

Even if we take a skeptical approach and set aside Whitaker and Taylor, that leaves us with seven witnesses who were there and saw the windshield up close and in person and stated there was a bullet hole in it. For me, that's very difficult to ignore. I'm not advocating for either position on this and either way it doesn't change my understanding of what occurred in Dealey Plaza, but I have a hard time believing ALL of these people were either lying or mistaken.

[Robert Montenegro]

On 10/13/2020 at 8:41 PM, Jim Phelps said:

Ref   https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305143?fbclid=IwAR1j2AR8R8FCTjdBOkphcBJDyIFVVuz6CYERqvUBOwhh0iBZHpP-_lt6J-o

No Holes:

At the time a 2nd Year medical student, Dr. Evalea Glanges (a woman who had been firing rifles since she was a young child) stated, with clarity, that she saw three things on 22 November 1963:

1. A bullet hole in the windshield of SS-100-X, with physical indications that signaled to her experienced eyesight that the bullet had traveled from the front to the back.

2. No cracks anywhere in the windshield of SS-100-X, indicating, once again to her experienced senses, that the warhead was from a high-velocity rifle.

3. An unidentified "...security officer..." frantically jumped in SS-100-X, and drove the vehicle out of sight of all of the onlookers, even while Dr. Glanges was leaning on the vehicle. 

Now, if Dr. Glanges' statement is factual, then Commission Exhibit 351 windshield in the National Archives photograph, is not the same windshield that was on President Kennedy's limo the day he was murdered...

 

 

Edited October 16, 2020 by Robert Montenegro

[David Josephs]

On 10/13/2020 at 8:41 PM, Jim Phelps said:

Ref   https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305143?fbclid=IwAR1j2AR8R8FCTjdBOkphcBJDyIFVVuz6CYERqvUBOwhh0iBZHpP-_lt6J-o

No Holes:

 

In addition to the reports and witness statements calling out this hole....

One of the items of evidence worth considering is the handwritten annotated drawing by Cunningham...

"Point of Impact" is place on the OUTSIDE of the windshield as the drawing is facing the limo, not from the inside looking out...

"No cracks inside layer" yet he writes "Struck from Inside" with no visible internal cracking...  if a shot came thru the windshield from the outside, the only thing inside the limo should be the bullet, and a few shards of glass.

FWIW...

 

 

 

And quite a few witnesses stated they saw a HOLE.... including the SS recap report, Stavis Ellis and Dr. Glanges

 

Edited October 16, 2020 by David Josephs

[David Josephs]

In direct contradiction to his drawing and notes....  "CC" initials a cannister with fragments from INSIDE the windshield

when he just tells us that there are "No cracks inside layer"

 

[Greg Wagner]

Nice work, David. Thanks!

[David Josephs]

25 minutes ago, Greg Wagner said:

Nice work, David. Thanks!

[Chris Bristow]

Some have said the bullet hole is an image of a Croft ladies handbag. I think I can see the very top of the bag and a bit of the right edge. The copy of the croft bag I have is lousy. You can barley make out that the bag is made up of white squares surrounded by brown stripes. The upper right corner of the bag is a white square. In a-6 I have red lines pointing to the white squares. it is not much to look at but they are in the correct spot and size to be her handbag. If that is the top of the handbag the bullet hole is too low and a bit to far right to be her handbag. The bullet hole is dark in the center and surrounded by white which is the opposite of the handbag. The white part of the bullet hole is also too large and too round to be part of the handbag.
 In the lower left corner is an image of a bullet hole fired from the right. It leaves a crack running through the hole at the same angle as the Alt6 image.
The middle image of bullet holes through the blueish windshield are also from the right and they leave holes that are shaped like Mickey Mouse ears or you could say it is heart shaped. The Alt6 image has the same basic shape although Mickey's left ear is faded  and a bit harder to see.
 I really find it compelling that the Alt7 image is in the correct spot as John Butler pointed out, The  line extending from the bottom of the crack is also correct.

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by Chris Bristow

[Pamela Brown]

11 hours ago, Greg Wagner said:

Hi Pamela. The handling of the evidence in this case was stunningly negligent, even criminal in some instances. I know you've done a lot of work on the limo and I apologize if you've already addressed this, but what's your take on this bullet hole business?

To my knowledge, George Whitaker's account has neither been corroborated nor disproved. That's quite a story to accept without some kind of proof.

You could make the case that Taylor just used imprecise language when he called it a "hole." I believe you made a similar point in a prior post somewhere (going from memory though, which is dangerous). In any case, I think it's a valid point.

Even if we take a skeptical approach and set aside Whitaker and Taylor, that leaves us with seven witnesses who were there and saw the windshield up close and in person and stated there was a bullet hole in it. For me, that's very difficult to ignore. I'm not advocating for either position on this and either way it doesn't change my understanding of what occurred in Dealey Plaza, but I have a hard time believing ALL of these people were either lying or mistaken.

George Whitaker had no connection to the limousine.  He worked at the Rouge, and probably heard stories about Vaughn Ferguson, who did. 

The Parkland witnesses certainly saw debris on the windshield, as it was all over the car.  They did not see whatever they saw in the same place. Here's my post on that:  

http://ss100x.com/hole1.html

[John Butler]

On 10/16/2020 at 9:02 PM, Chris Bristow said:

Some have said the bullet hole is an image of a Croft ladies handbag. I think I can see the very top of the bag and a bit of the right edge. The copy of the croft bag I have is lousy. You can barley make out that the bag is made up of white squares surrounded by brown stripes. The upper right corner of the bag is a white square. In a-6 I have red lines pointing to the white squares. it is not much to look at but they are in the correct spot and size to be her handbag. If that is the top of the handbag the bullet hole is too low and a bit to far right to be her handbag. The bullet hole is dark in the center and surrounded by white which is the opposite of the handbag. The white part of the bullet hole is also too large and too round to be part of the handbag.
 In the lower left corner is an image of a bullet hole fired from the right. It leaves a crack running through the hole at the same angle as the Alt6 image.
The middle image of bullet holes through the blueish windshield are also from the right and they leave holes that are shaped like Mickey Mouse ears or you could say it is heart shaped. The Alt6 image has the same basic shape although Mickey's left ear is faded  and a bit harder to see.
 I really find it compelling that the Alt7 image is in the correct spot as John Butler pointed out, The  line extending from the bottom of the crack is also correct.

Chris,

Great comment.  Here's an example of windshield holes made by an AK 47.  This could suggest the hole in the p. limo was caused by a medium powered rifle at about 2000 fps.

Some people think that the hole in the p. limo in Altgens 6 connects to the frontal shot into Kennedy's throat.  I linked the neck wound and the winshield hole and have this.

This doesn't look right.  What do you make of this?  It is a strange angle.

Edited October 18, 2020 by John Butler

[Adam Johnson]

Here is my problem with Evalea Glanges statement, in some photos and film from the Parkland emergency bay parking spot you can see white coat wearing people standing back against the far wall inside the bay 15 to 20 feet from the swing door entrance into the emergency room. Evalea says in that interview thats where she came out to view what was happening. Those people are also at least 10, 15 to 20 feet from the front bumper of the limo. 

As the Secret Service then spends the next 15 to 20 minutes cleaning out the limo, getting out and putting the bubbletop on the car, they and local police have cleared everyone away... they have pushed the press back not a single photo exists of the front of the limo in that parking bay.....yet Evalea Glanges is resting/leaning casual inquisitively up against the limo when it gets driven away....BULLxxxx.

[Chris Bristow]

10 hours ago, John Butler said:

Chris,

Great comment.  Here's an example of windshield holes made by an AK 47.  This could suggest the hole in the p. limo was caused by a medium powered rifle at about 2000 fps.

Some people think that the hole in the p. limo in Altgens 6 connects to the frontal shot into Kennedy's throat.  I linked the neck wound and the winshield hole and have this.

This doesn't look right.  What do you make of this?  It is a strange angle.

Well there are 2 things represented by the red line, slope angle from the windshield to JFK and the direction the shot comes from. To get the slope angle you need the distance from the windshield to JFK and the height diff between the hole and JFK's throat. That is the run and and rise. But this photo can't show us the distance between the windshield and JFK(run) it only gives the rise. So a line from hole to JFK won't be correct. If the photo was taken from a position perpendicular to the trajectory from windshield hole to JFK it would show the correct slope.
 The other thing we can't measure from Altgens position is the horizontal line from windshield to JFK which would lead back to the shooters location in the South knoll. from an overhead view you could draw a line that would accurately reflect the horizontal track from Windshield to JFK because from overhead you can see the true distance from JFK to the windshield and you can see the actual horizontal angle from JFK to the windshield. So just like the rise and run of a line that slopes downward(Like from Oswald to the limo), you need two measurements to get the horizontal line correct. The dist to JFK from the windshield and how far to the side of the hole is he sitting. That is the same as the rise and run of a vertical slope but in the vertical you need height and distance(Rise and run), and for the horizontal you need dist from JFK to hole and dist from JFK to the side of the hole within the limo(Run and rise) except in this case the rise is a horizontal measurement across the limo. So you would draw a line from the windshield hole straight back parallel to the length of the limo. Then measure the distance from were that line hits the back seat to JFK to get the rise which in this case is a horizontal measurement so I guess you could call it travel or something since it does not actually ruse up.