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Olive Branches to Jeff Carter, & Robert Wheeler


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While I assume Cliff was either drunk or overwhelmed by sentimentality when starting this thread, I really don’t mind the sentiment or that my name was initially botched. The evident condescension and crude label of ”Russiagate Denier” is another matter. Having once been labelled a “hardcore Oswald apologist”, the amusement of being pinned with ridiculous monikers for factually observing that the emperor has no clothes does not escape me. For those paying attention, recent months have seen information released to confirm the Steele Dossier consisted of, at best, unsubstantiated rumour and, at worst, drunken free association, while also demonstrating that the Mueller investigation, much like the Warren Commission, started from and operated according to predetermined conclusions which were never supported by facts.

Bygones may be bygones, I suppose, but “Russiagate” is responsible for the following extremely negative trends:

1) Financial Times reported yesterday the Biden transition team exhibits not just hostility towards, but has internalized a pitched emotional hatred for the Russian Federation. Coupled with the insistence that under Biden America will re-assume its self-appointed hegemonic posture (aka American Leadership), there is a great chance that something very stupid will occur within months.

2) Promotion of context and evidence-free allegations of “Russian meddling” in multiple jurisdictions suggests leadership in Western democracies have completely lost touch with reality. A belief that any narrative can be sold through PR techniques and media repetition is now widespread, and no longer limited to simply a contemptuous notion pitched by Karl Rove (mocking the “reality-based community”).

3) A new precedent has been set, at least now overtly, that the Intelligence and National Security bureaucracies hold veto power over non-vetted politicians even if they should win election.

4) Monopolist privately-held social media companies can now - without much controversy - censor, de-platform, “fact-check”, and prevent real-time discussion of current events, a dangerous spin into authoritarian models of speech which resulted largely from pressure by America’s liberal intelligentsia.

 

https://youtu.be/2D-l1MauBmM

 

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Now that Jeff has come in, I'm going to throw a bit of a monkey wrench into this.
I like your intentions Cliff. Sort of like Joe Biden. But I feel it's somewhat misdirected. Yes, you should apologize for calling anyone here a fascist but you were the one to first call Trump a fascist, when we both agree, his threat was being minimized, and you should  never apologize for that, because he is. We may have different levels of proof. But to me when Trump rolled over those protestors for a photo op at St . Michael's, it left the realm of Fascist talk and went to Fascist action.
 
I can see you really want to get off Wheeler's "ignore" list, though I can't imagine why, still that's your choice.
I was wondering who Fred Carter is, but I could make a mistake like that too. I guess what they have in common to you is that you've  had disagreements with them. But you insult Jeff, believe me there's  absolutely no comparison between Jeff Carter and Wheeler. Jeff spends time on research is intelligent,and well spoken,  uses details and makes good reasonable arguments, is polite and is able to have a civil discussion.  He's honest and doesn't try to bs and fabricate things, and he's actually got a pretty good sense of humor , when he chooses to. (I like that "drunk or overwhelmed with sentimentality' joke Jeff!) He's a grown man, not a 60 something with an adolescent emotional development. With Wheeler you have to ask is he basically dishonest or is he just addicted to dishonest sources and disinformation. In the end I don't think it matters. He's requires more effort to factually clean up after, than he would ever put into a post.
 
I disagree with Jeff about Russia involvement, and I may think that as a Canadian he believes a lot of the U,S. self hype about justice where the rest of us natives can speak  a little more from experience. Sometimes it seems to me like Jeff is like an immigrant to America whose trying to hold the rest of us to our higher American ideals. Which I may occasionally poke fun at, but I realize is a good thing.
 
 
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2 hours ago, Jeff Carter said:

While I assume Cliff was either drunk or overwhelmed by sentimentality when starting this thread, I really don’t mind the sentiment or that my name was initially botched.

Both!  I stand busted...

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The evident condescension and crude label of ”Russiagate Denier” is another matter. Having once been labelled a “hardcore Oswald apologist”, the amusement of being pinned with ridiculous monikers for factually observing that the emperor has no clothes

At Helsinki in '18 Putin admitted his agents in America assisted Trump's election.  You pretend otherwise.

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For those paying attention, recent months have seen information released to confirm the Steele Dossier consisted of, at best, unsubstantiated rumour and, at worst, drunken free association, while also demonstrating that the Mueller investigation, much like the Warren Commission, started from and operated according to predetermined conclusions which were never supported by facts.

Those paying attention know that the Mueller investigation was severely limited from the beginning.

Mueller didn't investigate Trump's finances.  He treated Trump's criminal kids with kid gloves.  He didn't require a face-to-face interview with Trump, allowing written answers full of lies and omissions.  He didn't publicly correct Bill Barr''s misrepresentation of the conclusions of the report.  He gave sodden testimony to the House.

Nothing came of the Mueller investigation, and the Steele Dossier only mattered to comedians.

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Bygones may be bygones, I suppose, but “Russiagate” is responsible for the following extremely negative trends:

1) Financial Times reported yesterday the Biden transition team exhibits not just hostility towards, but has internalized a pitched emotional hatred for the Russian Federation. Coupled with the insistence that under Biden America will re-assume its self-appointed hegemonic posture (aka American Leadership), there is a great chance that something very stupid will occur within months.

Trump pulled out of the Iran nuke deal, slapped crippling sanctions on Iran causing widespread misery among the Iranian people, and assassinated their #2 leader.

How does that not reflect "a self-appointed hegemonic posture"?

Or when Trump moved 800 troops into Somalia and quadrupled civilian deaths by drone strikes?

Or when he sold advanced weaponry to the Saudis to continue the slaughter of Yemanis?

Or when he moved the US Embassy to Jerusalem?

Or broke off Obama's opening to Cuba?

A real peacenik that Trump!

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2) Promotion of context and evidence-free allegations of “Russian meddling” in multiple jurisdictions suggests leadership in Western democracies have completely lost touch with reality. A belief that any narrative can be sold through PR techniques and media repetition is now widespread, and no longer limited to simply a contemptuous notion pitched by Karl Rove (mocking the “reality-based community”).

The inability to recognize Trump's involvement with Putin -- to which Putin stipulated! -- is denialism, pure and simple.

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3) A new precedent has been set, at least now overtly, that the Intelligence and National Security bureaucracies hold veto power over non-vetted politicians even if they should win election.

If Trump hadn't been vetted by hard right-wing financial interests they wouldn't have engineered his installment in the White House.

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4) Monopolist privately-held social media companies can now - without much controversy - censor, de-platform, “fact-check”, and prevent real-time discussion of current events, a dangerous spin into authoritarian models of speech which resulted largely from pressure by America’s liberal intelligentsia.

Which is why Facebook promotes right wing dis-information bubbles.

Why the right wing has a massive advantage on Facebook

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/26/facebook-conservatives-2020-421146

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https://youtu.be/2D-l1MauBmM

 

I thoroughly enjoy debating these issues, Jeff Carter!...I was loaded and delirious when I started this thread...What did I write, Fred Carter?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Carter

Edited by Cliff Varnell
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Among centerist corporate Democrats Biden has a relatively dovish record. 

When he came into the Senate in '72 he opposed the Vietnam War. 

He voted against the first Iraq War. 

He voted for the second Iraq War after offering a non-war alternative that went no where. 

He opposed the Bin Laden raid, proposed a much smaller Afghan surge in '09, and said during the '16 campaign that he opposed the Libya regime change action Hillary enthusiastically supported.

Antagonistic toward Russia?  So what?

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Kirk, Trumpism is fascism, yes sir!

You and I can see this with brutal clarity -- 70 million fellow Americans can't, one of life's little mysteries.

What's the over/under on the number of Trump's criminal convictions over the next two years?

5.5 I say.

What's your guess, Kirk?

 

 

Edited by Cliff Varnell
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About the convictions. that's hard to say. Wait till he plays this out.

Jeff responded. Well so much for the "olive branch". Now you're  just waiting for Wheeler.

I figured I'd cover both the Canadian base and the drunkenness base in one fell swoop. I hope you enjoy!

 

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4 minutes ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

About the convictions. that's hard to say. Wait till he plays this out.

Jeff responded. Well so much for the "olive branch". Now you're  just waiting for Wheeler.

I have three friends who were pulling for Trump to win, although only one voted for him.  I'm trying to figure out the attraction.  I just don't think everyone who supports the guy is a fascist, even though he is.

 

4 minutes ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

I figured I'd cover both the Canadian base and the drunkenness base in one fell swoop. I hope you enjoy!

 

 

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