TSBD Rear Exit

[Greg Wagner]

Thanks John... much appreciated. We agree there was no one firing from the sixth floor "sniper's nest." Bobby Joe Johnson is the witness who observed a man sticking a rifle out of a window near the west end of the building, but that's about all we have from him. No description, no floor.

I suppose part of this comes down to who one believes. Dougherty, Jarman, Norman, Williams and Hollies? Or the multiple witnesses who said they saw a gunman on the fifth floor? That's actually an angle I hadn't thought of before. An analysis of those witnesses up against one another. That may not settle the issue, but it would shine a light on it from another angle.

I do think it's possible Jarman, Norman and Williams were up there and saw more than they revealed, which is why their statements are such a mess.

Thanks again for pointing out Mary Hollies' later statements. I will check those out soon.

 

 

 

[John Butler]

13 hours ago, Greg Wagner said:

I do think it's possible Jarman, Norman and Williams were up there and saw more than they revealed, which is why their statements are such a mess.

Thanks Greg,

I have this notion of multiple "patsies".  The ones I think were originally set up as patsies were Bill Shelley, Chauncy Holt, and Oswald.  These 3 appear in a New Orleans TV film at the Trade Center run by Clay Shaw in August, 1963 I believe.  Holt was left sitting in a train car loaded with explosives, Shelley is arrested, but not.  Oswald is taken in.   

Bill Shelley was arrested at the TSBD.  Then he wasn't arrested.  That's a confusing story.  Bill Lovelady, Bonnie Ray Williams, and Danny Arce were taken in an questioned by the Dallas police.  So, were other members of Bill Shelley's flooring crew on the 6th floor.

That might be a good place to go looking for other co-conspirators.  I just noticed the fat guy leaning against the tree in the photo below.  He very well maybe the rotund fellow standing behind Doorway Man in Altgens 6. 

Check this photo out:

Accidents with police, witnesses, and guns going off or not going off happened during this investigation.  Does Bill Shelley look surprised and afraid?  Danny Arce is another suspicious character.  In particular, where he was at when the assassination occurred.  He is caught in Altgens 6 holding a radio or handphone.  I also think, not sure, he had radical Cuban relatives.  

Who is he communicating with?  and, Why?

As far as the 3 black men on the 5th floor, it is my belief that the Dallas Police and the FBI could have gotten those men to say anything they wanted.  Jim Crow days were still alive in Texas in 1969 when I spent about a year there.  Add suspicion of assassination and they would have said anything.  Of the three I use Bonnie Ray Williams as an example of a witness changing stories to suit what the authorities wanted.  It's been a while since I thought of Williams, but Williams first said he heard shooting on Houston Street at the intersection, then he later changed that to Elm Street intersection, then to in front of the TSBD, and lastly he got it right.  Pass the TSBD and down the street towards the Grassy Knoll.

I would like to read the testimonies of the folks who said they thought someone on the 5th floor fired a rifle.  Could you list those folks, please.

Thanks again 

 

Edited March 30, 2021 by John Butler

[Greg Wagner]

13 hours ago, John Butler said:

Thanks Greg,

I have this notion of multiple "patsies".  The ones I think were originally set up as patsies were Bill Shelley, Chauncy Holt, and Oswald.  These 3 appear in a New Orleans TV film at the Trade Center run by Clay Shaw in August, 1963 I believe.  Holt was left sitting in a train car loaded with explosives, Shelley is arrested, but not.  Oswald is taken in.   

Bill Shelley was arrested at the TSBD.  Then he wasn't arrested.  That's a confusing story.  Bill Lovelady, Bonnie Ray Williams, and Danny Arce were taken in an questioned by the Dallas police.  So, were other members of Bill Shelley's flooring crew on the 6th floor.

That might be a good place to go looking for other co-conspirators.  I just noticed the fat guy leaning against the tree in the photo below.  He very well maybe the rotund fellow standing behind Doorway Man in Altgens 6. 

Check this photo out:

Accidents with police, witnesses, and guns going off or not going off happened during this investigation.  Does Bill Shelley look surprised and afraid?  Danny Arce is another suspicious character.  In particular, where he was at when the assassination occurred.  He is caught in Altgens 6 holding a radio or handphone.  I also think, not sure, he had radical Cuban relatives.  

Who is he communicating with?  and, Why?

As far as the 3 black men on the 5th floor, it is my belief that the Dallas Police and the FBI could have gotten those men to say anything they wanted.  Jim Crow days were still alive in Texas in 1969 when I spent about a year there.  Add suspicion of assassination and they would have said anything.  Of the three I use Bonnie Ray Williams as an example of a witness changing stories to suit what the authorities wanted.  It's been a while since I thought of Williams, but Williams first said he heard shooting on Houston Street at the intersection, then he later changed that to Elm Street intersection, then to in front of the TSBD, and lastly he got it right.  Pass the TSBD and down the street towards the Grassy Knoll.

I would like to read the testimonies of the folks who said they thought someone on the 5th floor fired a rifle.  Could you list those folks, please.

Thanks again 

 

As the talking heads on TV say, there's a lot to unpack there, John. The idea of alternate or multiple patsies in Dealey Plaza is intriguing. I'm not sure what to make of Bill Shelley. There is a resemblance to the man in the New Orleans video. Roy Hargraves alluded to the "tramps" being patsies if the ambush failed and a car bomb was used somewhere beyond the underpass. I've always wondered if Loran Hall was being set up with Hemming's rifle, but he smelled a rat and didn't show up in Dallas. And Wes Frazier, who the DPD were all over early on. He owned an Enfield rifle (thanks to Rob Clark for that bit of information) and one of the early broadcasts mentioned an Enfield being recovered in the TSBD. The Hall and Frazier patsy ideas are just me speculating. Perhaps the guys who put the operation together wanted to have multiple options to keep open in case something went wrong with Plan A. Heck, for all we know, maybe Oswald as the patsy wasn't even Plan A. It's interesting to think about.

That photo and the arrests / non-arrests are fascinating. I agree that Bonnie Ray Williams and Danny Garcia Arce are curious, to say the least. Regarding DGA and Cubans, check out the photo comparison on the page I linked. Not only why were they were taken down in the back of a squad car, but where are Jarman and Norman at this point? Jarman, Norman and Williams came out of the building together and Williams is the only one of them that ended up in the back of a cop car. Why? How did Williams and Garcia Arce end up together? In one statement by one of the black guys on the fifth floor (can't recall which at the moment), they actually have DGA going up to the fifth floor with them to watch the motorcade. Say what? Williams and Garcia Arce both began working at the TSBD on or about Sept 6th, about the same time serious patsy-related activity around Oswald (setting him up) began to occur in Dallas. Another amazing coincidence. None of this is proof of anything, but you can only stack the questions and coincidences so high before ignoring them becomes malpractice. Yes, I recall Williams mentioning a first shot on Houston, then changing that to the intersection of Houston and Elm. Just one of several major problems with his testimony. The statements of Jarman, Norman and Williams are simply not believable. Not for me, anyway. I agree that three black warehouse workers in Texas in the early 60's would have been very easy to control through intimidation. Sad but true.

Regarding the testimony of the witnesses who saw a gunman on the fifth floor, you can read them all on my Dealey Plaza Witnesses page. The list of those witnesses and the Cliff Notes version of what they saw (my summary) is the Witness Matrix I put together, which you can find here, on my work-in-progress blog post. I also covered this material in my Lancer presentation last November, but I'm not sure if that's still available.

Edited March 30, 2021 by Greg Wagner

[Jonathan Cohen]

16 hours ago, John Butler said:

I have this notion of multiple "patsies".  The ones I think were originally set up as patsies were Bill Shelley, Chauncy Holt, and Oswald.  These 3 appear in a New Orleans TV film at the Trade Center run by Clay Shaw in August, 1963 I believe.  Holt was left sitting in a train car loaded with explosives, Shelley is arrested, but not.  Oswald is taken in. 

Beating a proverbial dead horse here, but as was pointed out by me and acknowledged by you in a prior thread, Chauncey Holt lied about being one of the tramps in Dealey Plaza. Beyond your own conjecture, there is absolutely no evidence that either he OR Bill Shelley appear in that Oswald film from New Orleans.

[Jamey Flanagan]

I've often wondered just what would've happened had Frazier and Oswald been in a car accident on their way to work that morning and either died or been hospitalized. There was ZERO chance that JFK was leaving Dallas alive that day! I'm sure they didn't put all of their eggs in one basket with Oswald and did have other patsies lined up, but not sure about some of those mentioned. It definitely would not have been quite as easy of a sell had it been someone other than Oswald. The fact that he had lived in the Soviet Union and had been arrested handing out pro-Castro leaflets as well as his supposed trip to Mexico City all helped to paint a certain picture of the alleged assassin. Had they been forced to go to a plan B I'm just not sure if they could have had that kinda ammunition against the plan B patsy.

[Greg Wagner]

48 minutes ago, Jamey Flanagan said:

I've often wondered just what would've happened had Frazier and Oswald been in a car accident on their way to work that morning and either died or been hospitalized. There was ZERO chance that JFK was leaving Dallas alive that day! I'm sure they didn't put all of their eggs in one basket with Oswald and did have other patsies lined up, but not sure about some of those mentioned. It definitely would not have been quite as easy of a sell had it been someone other than Oswald. The fact that he had lived in the Soviet Union and had been arrested handing out pro-Castro leaflets as well as his supposed trip to Mexico City all helped to paint a certain picture of the alleged assassin. Had they been forced to go to a plan B I'm just not sure if they could have had that kinda ammunition against the plan B patsy.

That's a fair point, Jamey. They had the means to paper up patsy evidence on the fly and after the fact, but the Oswald legend was deeper and more well established than anything they could have put together in that fashion. Perhaps that suggests that Oswald was indeed Plan A.

I do think there were redundant backups in place to pop Kennedy later in the Dallas route if something went wrong with the Dealey Plaza op. The idea of having backup options in terms of a patsy makes sense to me, even if they were inferior to the Oswald frame. As far as what, where and who, all we have is speculation.

Edited March 30, 2021 by Greg Wagner

[John Butler]

4 hours ago, Greg Wagner said:

That's a fair point, Jamey. They had the means to paper up patsy evidence on the fly and after the fact, but the Oswald legend was deeper and more well established than anything they could have put together in that fashion. Perhaps that suggests that Oswald was indeed Plan A.

I do think there were redundant backups in place to pop Kennedy later in the Dallas route if something went wrong with the Dealey Plaza op. The idea of having backup options in terms of a patsy makes sense to me, even if they were inferior to the Oswald frame. As far as what, where and who, all we have is speculation.

Thanks Greg,

I couldn't agree more.

Oswald's legend of miltary adventures, communism, defection, and Cuban baiting were well known.  Holt and Shelley's past deeds were not known pubicly.  But, they could have been easily exposed because both were bad characters.  Holt tells you in not so many words that he was an assassin amongst other things.  His past is riddled with that kind of work for the various mobs and the CIA.  Shelley's past is less known so until one reads about the William Sestons's spider's web at the TSBD.  Being with the CIA, he must have known every thing going on there about drugs and gun running.

It's all speculation.  I think of it as forming a hypothesis rather than speculation, and then matching known facts against it.  As far as redundant back ups I think there were several mostly in Bill Shelley's 10 man floor laying crew.

This is one of my main speculations.  Oswald (Harvey) was given an assignment.  He was to photograph the parade as it passed TSBD.  This Oswald was somewhat of a camera buff.  He had expensive cameras, camera equipment, and even a spy camera. 

He can be seen in two places.  The door to the Elm Street and on the TSBD porch and steps and on Elm Street below the tree at the TSBD.

Where does this spec come from.  The John Martin film and ties into Prayerman.  John Martin's film shows this image as a Prayerman-Oswald figure on Elm Street just below the trees in front of the TSBD.  Notice how he is holding his camera.  It is the same as Prayerman holding his object which I believe is a camera.  There are a number of interesting things in the John Martin film.  Who was the High Plains Drifer character sitting on the perch opposite of Oswald?  This image suggests Oswald had photos of the assassination.  What did he do with the camera and film. 

There is an Oswald figure there that resembles Prayerman.  When I brought this to the forum it ended a super large thread about Prayerman.  The thread was removed.  Since that time there were others that thought this was not Oswald and just a look alike.

Here's what I think.  Oswald was given an assignment just prior to the day of the assassination.  He was told to film the motorcade.  He did this standing under the trees in front of the TSBD. 

Oswald went back to the Payne's home Thursday night to get his camera equipment.  The camera he used was mounted in a two handed camera mount.  He used a regular paper bag from the grocery to carry his camera.  This is why his hands are separated by about a foot.  The image of Oswald you see here is about as clear as Prayerman's image in other films.  You can see in other frames that Oswald's camera flashes.

Oswald was combat trained.  He was a marine.  People like that being in a his position would seek cover and concealment due to the shooting.   He did that on the porch of the TSBD as seen in Prayerman.  Prayerman can't be seen or be available for east-west shooting.  The image of this person is very similar to this frame showing Prayerman.  This is about 40 seconds after the shooting.  Some of the crew in Algens 6 has changed.  The Elm Street Oswald had enough time to get to the TSBD enclosure by the time Darnell/Weigman filmed this.

Buell Frazier can be see in this film frame.  He can aslo be seen in Altgens 6.  This means he stood by Doorway Man and said the figure was Billy Lovelady.  He didn't see Prayerman and he is still on the porch in that setting with Prayerman.  I don't know whether Frazier's tales are authentic or not. 

4 hours ago, Greg Wagner said:

That's a fair point, Jamey. They had the means to paper up patsy evidence on the fly and after the fact, but the Oswald legend was deeper and more well established than anything they could have put together in that fashion. Perhaps that suggests that Oswald was indeed Plan A.

I agree with this.  They could simply changed the name on the pistol and rifle purchases to say Bill Shelley or Billy Lovelady.  Lovelady is a likely suspect to frame.  They could forge anything the way they wanted it.

I lost all credibility in Buell Frazier after he said the Doorwayman was Billy Lovelady.  And, he didn't see Prayerman there.  

I agree that President Kennedy was not getting out of Dealey Plaza alive.  Their were multiple shooting teams that would ensure that. 

 

[Ron Bulman]

Larry, ultimately I feel the rear exit(s) of participants was a planned supervised aspect of the assassination.  I question pretty much all the witness statements, those after the 22nd, to the DPD, FBI, and Warren Omission.  Some we know were altered.

[Larry Hancock]

I'm afraid the subject of the rear exit looks no clearer now than it did the last time I looked at it, many years ago.  As with much of the official evidence there are just too many outstanding questions to resolve at this distance in time.

In reality a rear exit makes a lot of sense and its hard not to see it in a plan. The only option is to have employees inside the building take on the roles that were going to be required in terms of planting evidence and other activities (either shooting or simply making themselves visible as a diversion) - and then be hard core enough to bluff their way out of questioning afterwards.

[Tony Rose]

On 2/23/2021 at 10:39 PM, Ron Bulman said:

Just a point of reference in thought.  The triangle portion of the back dock was enclosed, with three overhead doors.  Two for unloading trucks, one opening onto the section in the diagram labeled "Back Dock".  If this particular door wasn't raised no on went out on the 'back dock' then directly down the steps onto the Houston street sidewalk.

They would have had to come out the door in Pat's picture, where #3 point's in the diagram.  Then over to Houston, or towards Pacific.  Maybe a minor but potentially important detail regarding witness perspectives.

Pretty important.  If Barnett only ran 20 past the northeast corner of the building, he couldn't see the railroad yard; the enclosed triangle of the dock was in the way.

[Tony Rose]

On 3/14/2021 at 12:35 AM, Ron Bulman said:

I think he was at Elm and Houston because of the detail he provides in his questioning.  Immediate clear answers.  Though one has to question a 4" barrel from 6 floors below.  His looking up, turning and pivoting to run seems like a legitimate fear for his own safety.

As does his pause to breathe and look back from a half block away after the shots stopped.  

 

 

Why did he cross Houston after his run?

[Tony Krome]

2 hours ago, Tony Rose said:

Pretty important.  If Barnett only ran 20 past the northeast corner of the building, he couldn't see the railroad yard; the enclosed triangle of the dock was in the way.

He didn't say "northeast corner".

Mr. BARNETT - I went 20 foot past the building still on Houston, looking up. I could see the whole back of the building and also the east side of the building.

[Ron Bulman]

On 4/19/2021 at 5:49 PM, Tony Rose said:

Why did he cross Houston after his run?

That would have been a good question to have asked him.  Why he did so at that particular point.  He had to cross Houston at some point if he ran on up it then on to Pacific.  Pacific dead ends into Houston.  It still mystifies me how Barrett and Romack didn't see him, or at least mention it.  Or, how he could not see Barrett running towards him.  Great spot to  observe the back entrance was.  He did mention being out of breath, that he smoked too much.  A 19 year old after running less than 100 yards. 

[Ed LeDoux]

On 4/19/2021 at 3:49 PM, Tony Rose said:

Why did he cross Houston after his run?

Houston basically ends... hence the train tracks and such. It's not paved level with the tracks..

You would either by running across the railroad's tracks or simply cross Houston and continue up along Daltex to Pacific.

 

Worrell "might"*** have been at the parade but didn't witness what he claimed.

His story can only exist in a vacuum.

Add air and it dissolves.

Please watch him explain:

https://youtu.be/dBRb_kRz2d4

SPECTER - What time, to the best of your recollection, did you arrive at the intersection of Elm and Houston?
Mr. WORRELL - Well, about 10, 10:30, 10:45, something around there. There weren't many people standing around there then.
Mr. SPECTER - Well about how long before the Presidential motorcade came to Elm and Houston did you get there?
Mr. WORRELL - An hour; an hour and a half.

 

REALLY!?! He mastered time travel before dropping out of high school at age 20!

 

SPECTER - Now take a look at that picture and tell us where you were standing - and I will give you a pencil so you can mark it on that picture itself - at the time the Presidential motorcade came by. Mark it with an "X," if you would, just exactly where were you standing, as best you can recollect it, at this moment, at the time the President went by.
Mr. WORRELL - Right underneath that window right there.

Worrell's claimed position 

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pdf/WH16_CE_359.pdf

SPECTER - All right. Now on this picture will you again, with an "X," mark where you were standing as closely as you can recollect it.
Mr. WORRELL - That car is in the way.

 

A car in exhibit 359 is of course parked on Houston street not on the sidewalk in front of TSBD.

 

SPECTER - Did it pass right by in front of where you were standing?
Mr. WORRELL - Within a hundred feet, I guess.
Mr. SPECTER - Were you able to get a pretty good view of the President's motorcade?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - All right; go ahead and tell us.
Mr. WORRELL - Didn't get too good a view of the President either, I missed out on there too.

....Oy vey and good grief......

 

WORRELL - Well, when I heard the first shot it was too loud to be a firecracker, I knew that, because there was quite a big boom, and I don't know, just out of nowhere, I looked up like that, just straight up.

SPECTER - Indicating you looked straight back over your head, raising your head to look over your body at the 90 degree angle?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes; and I saw it for the second time and I looked back to the motorcade.

 

It gets worse for the unemployed roughneck dropout "Dicky Worrell"... but I won't bother to post it as his testimony is impugned by himself at every juncture.

The Warren Report rightly leaves out Worrell's words.

I have never seen a photo or film that supports Worrell, neither his actions or what he claims.

This puts Worrell in same category as Amos Euins and Euins' unnamed friend.

Useless. 

Ernest Scared Stupid's namesake Ernest P. Worrell would be a better commission witness.

Seeing a rifle firing from TSBD... twice... it's enough to make Brennan blush.

Cheers!

Ed

[John Butler]

On 3/30/2021 at 1:54 PM, Jonathan Cohen said:

Beating a proverbial dead horse here, but as was pointed out by me and acknowledged by you in a prior thread, Chauncey Holt lied about being one of the tramps in Dealey Plaza. Beyond your own conjecture, there is absolutely no evidence that either he OR Bill Shelley appear in that Oswald film from New Orleans.