Towards A Simple, Plausible Yet Explanatory Conspiracy Theory

[Benjamin Cole]

8 hours ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

Very thoughtful post but I have following comments:

1. Oswald could have been told to hang by the first floor phone for a call. it doesnt make sense to have him fire a shot and then have Del Valle take his shots. too much time for Del Valle to prep and sight his prey.  there was no reason for LHO to be on the 6th floor if there was a false flag operation. no need to convince him its ok since there will be a Grassy Knoll distraction. he was there as the patsy. he didnt need to fire a shot.

2. How does del Valle stick out his head in the tiny opening that existed much less fire a rifle? 

3. For a rifle to be seen from the street by Euins or Brennan protruding from the window would have required the shooter to be fully extending his arms-far removed from his head much less his eye. Not exactly the way someone fires a rifle. That object was intended to be seen likely as a distraction for the other rear located gunman. Perhaps that was LHO's role but there are enough witnesses who saw him from 11:55 to 12:20 to seriously question that he was on the sixth floor. Even Curry said no one can put oswald on the sixth floor holding a rifle at 12:30.    

4. Accusing a high level officer of plotting to kill a president is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence. Even a false flag plot is very dangerous and requires more than a mere supposition. I really cannot buy that Phillips was involved in any sort of plot. He was too good a PR guy to know the risks-having already learned some serious lessons with Cuba.  

5. The exile groups were automonous and CIA had very little control. More likely the planning was done at a case officer level or even a contract agent (like Rosselli). The more likely solution is that one of their handlers told them about the backchannel efforts JFK was having with Castro (JFK and his national security team were advised by the overture in Sept) and felt that was strike 3. Word could have been leaked to more senior officials but discounted (a likely conduit was Roselli to Harvey who would have shared with one his friends at the CIA (harvey and roselli are known to have met several times during the summer of 63).

6. I agree that the Mafia-exile did it alone theory fails short because of the need to control the autopsy. Was advance knowledge by senior officials about a plot (but not organized by them) required to plan this or was the botched autopsy the result of the ad hoc planning-- especially since Mrs. Kennedy was given the choice of where the autopsy was to be done (was she "led" into choosing Bethesda instead of Walter Reed)?

6.   The Walker evidence is adequate to establish LHO has a shooter. assuming the evidence was admissible (marina likely would have been unable to testify because of the spousal privilege in effect), there were sufficient questions about the evidence to establish beyond a reasonable doubt that LHO was the shooter.  

Lawrence S.

 

Thanks for reading and your observations. Here are my replies: 

1. LOH. We actually agree somewhat here. LOH can be made into a patsy, even if he was not in the sniper's nest. I posit a scenario in which he was in the nest. 

2. Not sure I follow. I think the sniper's nest window was high enough to stick out a rifle or a bald head. 

3. Again, not sure what you mean. Witness Rowland says the window, a half frame window, was open to the max. 

4. Yes, today a false-flag fase assassination attempt on a sitting US president sounds extreme. In 1963, at the height of the Cuba-cold wars days....maybe not so much. Operations Northwoods planned far worse. Back then, serious members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff wanted to initiate a nuclear war with the Soviet Union. That was the climate. Really, compared to initiating a nuclear war, a JFKA PR stunt is small potatoes.

5. The researchers Newman and Hardway both conclude some serious biography building was going on with LOH. There are many connections between LOH and the intel state, and almost none with the Mob. The WWIII virus is way beyond Mob stuff. The complicity of many parties after the JFKA is also beyond the arm of the Mob. Perhaps the Mob provided some hired shooters, who were brought in and piggybacked on the false-flag fake operation. Maybe they shot from the Dal-Tex building, and that's all they knew about the operation, none of the backstory. I am offering a version of events that is simple, explanatory, and plausible. I contend a conspiracy to kill JFKA had to be small, very small. 

6. The Walker evidence is inconclusive, and what evidence exists suggests if LOH was the actual shooter, then he had accomplices, a different rifle, and badly missed at short range. 

[Benjamin Cole]

4 hours ago, Richard Booth said:

The power being shut off seems to me very significant. I don't think it was a prank or LHO, my immediate suspicion is the power was shut off in order to allow someone to clandestinely and safely get to the first floor and exit by using the inside of the elevator shaft. In doing this it would allow safe passage unobserved.

Add on: What rattles me about my "smaller is better" scenario is LOH's wallet showing up at the Tippit murder scene. 

 

This means---

1. Of the thousands of street murders committed every year, only LOH helpfully dropped his wallet at the scene of the crime to aid investigators. 

2. The wallet was planted at the scene. That means someone had the wallet, got clued in about the Tippit murder, then made his way to the scene. Supposedly Phillips was in Dallas on the day....

3. LOH intentionally dropped his wallet, as a signal to handlers to come extract him from the deepening mess he was in (this seems unlikely). 

 

 

[Joe Bauer]

26 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Richard Booth--

 

Other unidentified people were seen leaving the TSBD in the immediate aftermath of the JFKA, including a man in brown coat. 

 

Houston street pedestrian Carolyn Walther clearly stated that of the two men she saw in the same TXSBD upper floor window just before JFK arrived into Dealey Plaza ( with both holding rifles) one of these men was wearing a "brown" coat.

So, we have two eyewitnesses identifying a man inside the TXSBD upper floor window just before the JFK hit, and one leaving out the back of the book depository just after the hit...both wearing a brown coat.

Coincidence?  Brown coats were not the common coat color of the day.

[Joe Bauer]

34 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Richard Booth--

 

Other unidentified people were seen leaving the TSBD in the immediate aftermath of the JFKA, including a man in brown coat. 

 

Houston street pedestrian Carolyn Walther clearly stated that of the two men she saw in the same TXSBD upper floor window just before JFK arrived into Dealey Plaza ( with both holding rifles) one of these men was wearing a "brown" coat.

So, we have two eyewitnesses identifying a man inside the TXSBD upper floor window just before the JFK hit, and one leaving out the back of the book depository just after the hit...both wearing a brown coat.

Coincidence?  Brown coats were not the common coat color of the day.

[Benjamin Cole]

2 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Houston street pedestrian Carolyn Walther clearly stated that of the two men she saw in the same TXSBD upper floor window just before JFK arrived into Dealey Plaza ( with both holding rifles) one of these men was wearing a "brown" coat.

So, we have two eyewitnesses identifying a man inside the TXSBD upper floor window just before the JFK hit, and one leaving out the back of the book depository just after the hit...both wearing a brown coat.

Coincidence?  Brown coats were not the common coat color of the day.

Joe B.--

Yes, I think there was time for people to shoot, and then walk down the TBSD back stairway and leave. Very simple explanation. Descending stairs rapidly is no great feat. I wish I knew how bulky or long the brown coat was.

Could someone secret a short rifle under said brown coat? Who knows? 

 

[Tony Krome]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Truly pushed the elevator call button but the neither the east nor west elevators responded (the electricity was off).

When Truly arrived at the first floor freight elevator area, he pressed the elevator button and activated the call bell. So the electricity to the control panel was working assuming the call bell was one of those electrically activated types. I can't imagine the bell was one that you pick up and shake or one that hangs and you swing the clapper. Although, the call bell may have been seperate to the control panel on a different circuit. The lighting was working, no-one claimed they were running about in darkness. (more info req)

So Truly looks up and figures both elevators were on the 5th level. The EAST elevator was hand-controlled, so he did not expect that one to respond. The WEST elevator will respond at the press of a button providing the the gates were shut on the elevator, and every safety gate on each floor was in the closed position.

Truly did not suspect any electrical issues, that is why he called up the elevator shaft, not once, but twice. He also did not mention anything about an improperly working call bell.

Mr. TRULY. ...... I rang the bell and pushed this button. 

Truly and Baker run up the stairs to the 5th floor and take the EAST elevator to the 7th floor. So the power was definitely on at that point. But the WEST elevator was not there when they arrived on the 5th, so the power to the elevators was definitely on as they were ascending the stairs.

It was much later that the power to the elevators was shut off;

Mr. MOONEY - It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator.

Edited April 11, 2021 by Tony Krome

[Joe Bauer]

45 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Joe B.--

Yes, I think there was time for people to shoot, and then walk down the TBSD back stairway and leave. Very simple explanation. Descending stairs rapidly is no great feat. I wish I knew how bulky or long the brown coat was.

Could someone secret a short rifle under said brown coat? Who knows? 

 

BC, how many employees in the TXSBD even wore business suit coats? The huge majority of male employees there ( manual workers ) didn't wear coats like that, especially on a sunny day.  Heck even boss Roy Truly dressed more casually.

Other thoughts.

Harold Norman, Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman Jr. were all "directly under" the shooter on the floor just feet above them.

They heard the booming shots. They felt the concussions and the gun explosions actually knocked white powder ( dust/paint/asbestos?) down from the ceiling above them and into their hair.

Norman testified under oath that he not only heard rifle bolt action right above him between shots ( boom, click click, boom, click click, boom)  but he also heard the spent cartridges hitting the floor!

I can imagine anyone freezing upon hearing gun shots being fired just 10 feet away from them ( in this case above ) and not reacting blindly and running to their source.

Like so many on the ground dropping down to their knees or lying flat when they heard and saw JFK and Connally being hit so close to them.

It's a protective instinct.

But, I also can't help but think that Norman, Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman knew within just a minute or so that they actually heard the sniper right above them shooting away.  You think they might have gone looking for this culprit, or at least considered doing so or talked to each other about doing so. But they wanted no part of that action.

How long before these three guys actually left where they were during the shots and went downstairs? And how soon did they contact the police in their building and tell them about their incredibly close proximity encounter with the shooter?

Had they been up on the 6th floor at all that day? Did they see Oswald up on that floor at all that day?

Someone had to have been up on that floor at some point that Friday work day. Tons of boxes of books there that had to be dealt with, and floor work being done on the floor area as well. Somebody had their lunch on that floor that day. Chicken and soda bottle found in a bag there.

If I were the police that day and found out that Norman, Williams and Jarman Jr. were just feet under the shooter while it was being done, I would have dragged them down to the station as a first priority for an interview.

Were these three guys even taken back to the DPD for questioning that day?

 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2021 by Joe Bauer

[Tony Krome]

46 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Harold Norman, Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman Jr. were all "directly under" the shooter on the floor just feet above them.

They heard the booming shots. They felt the concussions and the gun explosions

Mr. NORMAN. ..... I heard a shot, and then after I heard the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something, and then another shot and I believe Jarman or someone told me, he said, "I believe someone is shooting at the President,"

The explosions just 10 or so feet above their heads should have been like 160 decibels, and someone says "I believe someone is shooting at the President".  .... and that was after the hearing two 160Db explosions.

 

[Benjamin Cole]

2 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

BC, how many employees in the TXSBD even wore business suit coats? The huge majority of male employees there ( manual workers ) didn't wear coats like that, especially on a sunny day.  Heck even boss Roy Truly dressed more casually.

Other thoughts.

Harold Norman, Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman Jr. were all "directly under" the shooter on the floor just feet above them.

They heard the booming shots. They felt the concussions and the gun explosions actually knocked white powder ( dust/paint/asbestos?) down from the ceiling above them and into their hair.

Norman testified under oath that he not only heard rifle bolt action right above him between shots ( boom, click click, boom, click click, boom)  but he also heard the spent cartridges hitting the floor!

I can imagine anyone freezing upon hearing gun shots being fired just 10 feet away from them ( in this case above ) and not reacting blindly and running to their source.

Like so many on the ground dropping down to their knees or lying flat when they heard and saw JFK and Connally being hit so close to them.

It's a protective instinct.

But, I also can't help but think that Norman, Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman knew within just a minute or so that they actually heard the sniper right above them shooting away.  You think they might have gone looking for this culprit, or at least considered doing so or talked to each other about doing so. But they wanted no part of that action.

How long before these three guys actually left where they were during the shots and went downstairs? And how soon did they contact the police in their building and tell them about their incredibly close proximity encounter with the shooter?

Had they been up on the 6th floor at all that day? Did they see Oswald up on that floor at all that day?

Someone had to have been up on that floor at some point that Friday work day. Tons of boxes of books there that had to be dealt with, and floor work being done on the floor area as well. Somebody had their lunch on that floor that day. Chicken and soda bottle found in a bag there.

If I were the police that day and found out that Norman, Williams and Jarman Jr. were just feet under the shooter while it was being done, I would have dragged them down to the station as a first priority for an interview.

Were these three guys even taken back to the DPD for questioning that day?

 

 

 

Joe B-

 

I suspect it was warmer inside the building than out. On the street, Rowland described wearing gloves, and other people are seen in coats.  

Inside the TSBD, Mr. Brown Coat was probably unique, at least in wearing a coat. But then not many people were on the sixth floor. I wonder if anyone noticed if Mr. Brown Coat was bald. Maybe he put on fedora when leaving the building. 

Also, remember, there were four publishing companies with offices inside the TSBD, all of whom could have had executives in on any given day. So a man entering the building in brown suit coat would not have been unusual, in my guess. 

Another strange thing, is I do not think those publisher offices were ever searched after the JFKA. 

Anybody out there know? 

 

[Cliff Varnell]

13 hours ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

4. Accusing a high level officer of plotting to kill a president is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence. Even a false flag plot is very dangerous and requires more than a mere supposition. I really cannot buy that Phillips was involved in any sort of plot. He was too good a PR guy to know the risks-having already learned some serious lessons with Cuba.  

Isn't that what a false-flag operation needs -- a good PR man?  The plotters had four psyop specialists at hand -- David Phillips, Edward Lansdale, George Joannides, and C.D. Jackson.

That Veciana's composite sketch of Maurice Bishop was identified as Phillips by Phillips' niece has always struck me as extraordinary evidence.

 

Edited April 11, 2021 by Cliff Varnell

[Guest]

In film or in reality, most conspiracies work best with few people involved and the logic used is that there are fewer mouths to talk. i would agree it is best to keep things as small as possible.
Most of our logic on this is formed on that basis but, in the JFKA case or CIA covert ops, there is a different logic and i’ll explain why. 
 

All you need is to pick CIA assets to do the job that are:

1) Completely loyal to the cause, who despise the target and view the president as treasonous or undermining the strength and security of the USA. It’s easy to see with the failed Bay of Pigs situation and Kennedy’s detente’s and rapprochement’s, peace oriented speeches that he would be seen that way by right wingers and alpha military types. He was never their guy. 
2) That of these loyal agency pro-conflict types; that they all know the score for whistleblowing or betraying the agency, which is destruction of reputation and or death. Many CIA staffers would be conscious of the bad deeds going on all over the globe in the name of foreign policy, nobody would be under any illusions that an organisation planning hits on Castro and all sorts of foreign leaders, would hesitate if they stepped out of line. You’d pick people with stuff to lose, ie people with a wife and kids. This is the same thing drug cartels do to co-opt people into their murky world. Also if we look at the other dominant force of the time, the USSR, how many of the KGB guys were in whistleblowers in the aftermath of their assassinations? Not too many right? As they too knew the price for betrayal. 
 

For it to work, you just need loyalists who know the cost of talking. You can have a fair few more than 5 in on this and still get silence.

[Greg Doudna]

6 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Add on: What rattles me about my "smaller is better" scenario is LOH's wallet showing up at the Tippit murder scene. 

 

This means---

1. Of the thousands of street murders committed every year, only LOH helpfully dropped his wallet at the scene of the crime to aid investigators. 

2. The wallet was planted at the scene. That means someone had the wallet, got clued in about the Tippit murder, then made his way to the scene. Supposedly Phillips was in Dallas on the day....

3. LOH intentionally dropped his wallet, as a signal to handlers to come extract him from the deepening mess he was in (this seems unlikely). 

 

 

 

Benjamin, you might take a look at this: https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26874-the-wallet-at-the-tippit-scene-a-simpler-solution/.

 

[Joe Bauer]

4 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Joe B-

 

I suspect it was warmer inside the building than out. On the street, Rowland described wearing gloves, and other people are seen in coats.  

Inside the TSBD, Mr. Brown Coat was probably unique, at least in wearing a coat. But then not many people were on the sixth floor. I wonder if anyone noticed if Mr. Brown Coat was bald. Maybe he put on fedora when leaving the building. 

Also, remember, there were four publishing companies with offices inside the TSBD, all of whom could have had executives in on any given day. So a man entering the building in brown suit coat would not have been unusual, in my guess. 

Another strange thing, is I do not think those publisher offices were ever searched after the JFKA. 

Anybody out there know? 

 

Oswald was singled out to the DPD supposedly because he was one employee who was not present later when Truly did a head count.

At that point, Oswald had left the building. He took off to get a bus ride home.

However, we know factually that Oswald didn't leave the TXSBD "immediately" after the shooting.

He hung around long enough to saunter into the 2nd floor lunch room to buy a soda pop out of the dispensary machine and stand around sipping this when Officer Baker saw him and confronted him there.

Oswald later was reported to be in the first floor lobby area by reporter Robert McNeil who asked him if there was a phone available upon which Oswald directed him to a wall mounted pay telephone. 

If a man wearing a "brown coat" was seen "running" out the back door of the TXSBD building right after the shooting ( leaving even sooner than Oswald?) who could this person have been?

Like you mentioned, there were other companies in the building. Ones that may have had suited employees. Mostly women though. Maybe he was a salesman? But why run out the back? Why run at all? 

We know of other suited men around the TXSBD who when confronted by police pulled out agency badges/ID.

The fact they were there on the scene in those first few post shooting minutes is just another tip off of more going on than just lone gunman Oswald sipping soda, giving phone location advise and then walking ( not running) to catch a bus home.

Edited April 11, 2021 by Joe Bauer

[Joe Bauer]

20 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Mr. NORMAN. ..... I heard a shot, and then after I heard the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something, and then another shot and I believe Jarman or someone told me, he said, "I believe someone is shooting at the President,"

The explosions just 10 or so feet above their heads should have been like 160 decibels, and someone says "I believe someone is shooting at the President".  .... and that was after the hearing two 160Db explosions.

 

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. With which arm?
Mr. NORMAN. I believe it was his right arm, and I can't remember what the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something, and then another shot and I believe Jarman or someone told me, he said, "I believe someone is shooting at the President," and I think I made a statement "It is someone shooting at the President, and I believe it came from up above us."
Well, I couldn't see at all during the time but I know I heard a third shot fired, and I could also hear something sounded like the shell hulls hitting the floor and the ejecting of the rifle, it sounded as though it was to me.
Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear?
Mr. NORMAN. Three.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not you said anything to the men then as to whether or not you heard anything from above you?
Mr. NORMAN. Only I think I remember saying that I thought I could hear the shell hulls and the ejection of the rifle. I didn't tell I think I hear anybody moving, you know.
Mr. BALL. But you thought, do you remember you told the men then that you thought you heard the ejection of the rifle?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And shells on the floor?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Falling?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything as to where they thought the shots came from?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, I don't recall of either one of them saying they thought where it came from.
Mr. BALL. But You did?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And you said you thought it came from where?
Mr. NORMAN. Above where we were, above us.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any dust or dirt falling?
Mr. NORMAN. I didn't see any falling but I saw some in Bonnie Ray Williams hair.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything about it?
Mr. NORMAN. I believe Jarman told him that it was in his hair first. Then I, you know, told him it was and I believe Jarman told him not to brush it out his hair but I think he did anyway.

Mr. BALL. After that happened, what did you do?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, we ran to the farthest window facing the expressway.
Mr. BALL. The farthest window, is that right?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. I have here a diagram of this fifth floor.
Mr. McCLOY. May I interrupt there.
Mr. BALL. Go right ahead.
Mr. McCLOY. You spoke about seeing the President sort of slump over after the first shot?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes; I believe the first.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the President hit on any subsequent shots?
Mr. NORMAN. No; I don't recall seeing that.
Mr. BALL. Here is a diagram of the sixth floor.
Mr. NORMAN. The sixth floor?
Mr. BALL. Of the fifth floor rather, which is Commission's 487, and this is the southeast corner window. To what window did you and your two friends run?
Mr. NORMAN. This is the south. This is the window we were in. We came to this last, I believe it is the next to the last or the last window on this end here, right here.

Mr. BALL. Why did you run down to that window?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, it seems as though everyone else was running towards the railroad tracks, and we ran over there. Curious to see why everybody was running that way for. I thought maybe--
Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything about going up to the sixth floor?
Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember anyone saying about going up to the sixth floor.

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Do you show in the picture--
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Is that the window you looked out of?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I believe that is the one.

Mr. BALL. And how long did you stay at that window?
Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember, but it wasn't very long.
Mr. BALL. Then where did you
Mr. NORMAN. We ran down to the first floor.

Mr. BALL. When you were brought to the first floor or when you came to the first floor how did you go down there?
Mr. NORMAN. We came down the stairway. I remember we came down the stairway.
Mr. BALL. When you got to the first floor did someone talk to you, police officers?
Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember a police officer talking to me as soon as we got down there. I don't.
Mr. BALL. Did anyone talk to you later?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Who?
Mr. NORMAN. I guess they were Secret Service men. But I know they talked to us.
Mr. BALL. Did they take you over to the police station later?

Mr. NORMAN. No; they didn't carry me to the police station.

Mr. BALL. When did you leave the place?
Mr. NORMAN. Oh, I would say somewhere around 2 o'clock, somewhere in the vicinity of that.
Mr. BALL. Who did you leave with?
Mr. NORMAN. Mr. James Jarman. I can't remember who.
Mr. BALL. From the time that you went down on the first floor until you left the building to go home did you leave the building at all?
Mr. NORMAN. No; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Where did you stay?
Mr. NORMAN. They kept us on the first floor.

Mr. BALL. You did make a statement later to the Secret Service, didn't you?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. I have here a document 493, which is a copy of a statement made by this witness, which I now mark 493.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 493, for identification.)
Mr. BALL. The document that I have here shows the date 4th of December 1963. Do you remember having made a statement to Mr. Carter, Special Agent of the Secret Service, on that day?
Mr. NORMAN. I can't remember the exact date but I believe I remember Mr. Carter.
Mr. BALL. I want to call your attention to one part of the statement and I will ask you if you told him that:
"Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots.

I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, ...

and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I could also hear the bolt action of the rifle. I also saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly above me."

Did you make that statement to the Secret Service man?

Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember making a statement that I knew the shots came from directly above us. I didn't make that statement. And I don't remember saying I heard several seconds later. I merely told him that I heard three shots because I didn't have any idea what time it was.

Mr. BALL. I see. Did you tell them that you heard the bolt action of the rifle?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And that you heard the expended cartridges fall to the floor?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes; I heard them making a sound.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you have any rough recollection of the amount of time that passed between the time you heard the first shot and when you ran down to the west end of the building and looked out the window there and the time when you left the fifth floor and finally came down to the first floor where the police officers were? Can you give me a general estimate of about how much time that took?
Mr. NORMAN. To come down from the fifth floor?
Mr. McCLOY. Yes. From the time you first heard the shot and saw what was going on in the motorcade and then ran down toward the western end of the building and then as I understand your testimony, you left there and went down to the did you go down to the fourth floor first or did you go all the way down?
Mr. NORMAN. I believe we went all the way.
Mr. McCLOY. Until you got down to the first floor, how much would you say was the entire length of that time, from the first shot until you got down on the first floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Oh, I would say somewhere between 10 or 15 minutes, somewhere like that.   ( my thoughts: 15 MINUTES?)

Mr. McCLOY. I don't think I have any other question.
Mr. BALL. I have one question.
On the 26th of November, an FBI agent named Kreutzer advises us in a report that he talked to you. Do you remember that?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You remember?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes; I remember talking to him. I don't know his name.

Mr. BALL. He reports that you told him that you heard a shot and that you stuck your head from the window and looked upward toward the roof but could see nothing because small particles of dirt were falling from above you. Did you tell him that?
Mr. NORMAN. I don't recall telling him that.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever put your head out the window?
Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; I don't remember ever putting my head out the window.
Mr. BALL. And he reports that you stated that two additional shots were fired after you pulled your head back in from the window. Do you remember telling him that?
Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; I don't.

( my thoughts: There is a well known photo of one of the men ( Jarman, Williams or Norman) sticking his head out of their 5th floor open window and "looking up" toward the window directly above them.) 

Mr. McCLOY. At the time after you heard the shots, did you have any thought that you might run upstairs and see if anybody was up there where the shots were coming from there?
Mr. NORMAN. No, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you feel that it might be dangerous to go upstairs?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.   

( my thoughts: if Norman didn't have "any" thought about running upstairs how could he have the thought that it might be dangerous to do so?)

Edited April 12, 2021 by Joe Bauer

[Richard Booth]

15 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Add on: What rattles me about my "smaller is better" scenario is LOH's wallet showing up at the Tippit murder scene. 

This means---

1. Of the thousands of street murders committed every year, only LOH helpfully dropped his wallet at the scene of the crime to aid investigators. 

2. The wallet was planted at the scene. That means someone had the wallet, got clued in about the Tippit murder, then made his way to the scene. Supposedly Phillips was in Dallas on the day....

3. LOH intentionally dropped his wallet, as a signal to handlers to come extract him from the deepening mess he was in (this seems unlikely).

 

I believe the wallet was planted there by someone following orders, and this person need not know the full scope of the plot which can be said for most of the plot's participants. That's just how a compartmentalized operation works.

Having said that, I think that the most likely explanation for the wallet is it was planted there. I believe that W.R. Westbrook was involved in doing this. 

Westbrook had absolutely no business being at the Texas Theater, the Tippit scene, or at the TSBD. He's essentially a human resources clerk, what's he doing examining murder crime scenes? What's he doing discovering wallets at crime scenes? What's he doing working for the CIA in Saigon a few years later?

If CIA was involved in this they would need assets in-place in the police department, and I believe they had those assets in Dallas and they had those assets in the LAPD when Bobby was shot.