Fletcher Prouty vs the ARRB

[Larry Hancock]

Paul, specifically in regard to your question on Col Jones,  I don't know that military intelligence as a body did anything to obscure the truth - to have an opinion on that I would have to know the specific backstory about who called/supplied Jones as a witness. 

Its important to note that the real thrust of his appearance before the committee was in regard to questions about the mystery of unknown individuals in the plaza and behind the fence who showed government identification - a question which had a good deal of interest and was obviously an important one.  In that regard Jones' statements that those individuals could very well have been 112th officers in plain clothes and on assignment effectively served to close down that line of inquiry. 

Whatever his motives might have been, or the motives of whoever invited him as a witness, his statements seem to have aborted further investigation of that question and that appears pretty suspicious to me given the information the ARRB later collected.

[Paul Brancato]

1 hour ago, Larry Hancock said:

Paul, specifically in regard to your question on Col Jones,  I don't know that military intelligence as a body did anything to obscure the truth - to have an opinion on that I would have to know the specific backstory about who called/supplied Jones as a witness. 

Its important to note that the real thrust of his appearance before the committee was in regard to questions about the mystery of unknown individuals in the plaza and behind the fence who showed government identification - a question which had a good deal of interest and was obviously an important one.  In that regard Jones' statements that those individuals could very well have been 112th officers in plain clothes and on assignment effectively served to close down that line of inquiry. 

Whatever his motives might have been, or the motives of whoever invited him as a witness, his statements seem to have aborted further investigation of that question and that appears pretty suspicious to me given the information the ARRB later collected.

I know you’re very cautious on suppositions, so I’m glad you find his testimony suspicious regardless of how he was chosen. 

[Larry Hancock]

I think the following information needs to be added to this discussion - its from respected researcher Larry Haapanen who is not a member of the forum at this point but shared it with me today....the following is from his message:

" A few years ago, as I pursued my practice of looking at reminiscences of 11/22/63 that have periodically appeared in newspapers and so forth) I ran across the follow from an interview with with one Jeff Wentworth from the San Antonio Express, 11/17/2013"

 "Judge Jeff Wentworth: I was living in Dallas on November 22, 1963, and saw President and Mrs. Kennedy riding in their open-air
 motorcade from Love Field to the parade route in downtown Dallas only minutes before Lee Harvey Oswald shot and killed the President. As a US Army officer at the time, my active duty military assignment was as a special agent/ counterintelligence officer at Region II HQs of the 112th Intelligence Corps Group based in Dallas. When my local Army commanding officer had earlier learned
 of the President's planned trip to Dallas, both he and the local commanding officer of our sister US Air Force contingent notified the Secret Service of the availability of approximately 40 active duty military personnel -- all of us federally trained in VIP
 protection -- to help with our Commander-in-Chief's security. 

The Secret Service declined the offer because, they said, the Secret Service and Dallas Police Department had everything under
 control."

Jeff Wentworth served in the Texas House of Representatives from from 1988 to 1993. He then went on to serve in the Texas Senate from 1997 to 2013, and following that he was appointed a Justice of the Peace in Bexar County  1988.

Personally I find that quite reasonable, especially given that advance Secret Service lead Lawson prepared an extensive report on his security preparations and that involved the DPD calling up police reserves and its own intelligence unit reserves (one of whom I interviewed on his duties that day yeas ago). Even offers from the Sheriff's office were refused as Lawson thought he had done an extensive job (it was his first advance) and the DPD support was sufficient.  

A routine rejection of the offer would would certainly explain complaints at headquarters after the fact - which appear to have been widespread.  I found one individual who related her husband (a civilian contractor) had heard complaints in the base mess hall.  It would also explain why someone made a complaint call to Fletcher Prouty.

Of course it does not map to a sensational last minute "stand down", and is also totally out of line with Jones's statements (which I don't trust) of personnel being officially deployed.  Of course having both a stand down and a deployment (that the local 112th was unaware of for that matter) is certainly inconsistent.

All in all the remarks from Wentworth seem reasonable and consistent to me; as for Jones, a lot is wrong with his story and with his appearance which suppressed a very important area of investigation.

 

[Joseph McBride]

But it was stand for the military to provide backup

on the streets for any presidential visit, and this

was refused in Dallas by the Secret Service. 

[Larry Hancock]

Joe, I don't know that it was SOP  and would appreciate seeing your source on it.  The military was available on demand but normally requested as needed by the SS - for example military personnel were used on a one or more of JFK's "conservation" tour appearances that fall which were at relatively remote locations with no major urban police or law enforcement resource available. 

In addition military personnel were used for security on all military base or facility visits - normally military police.  As I recall the large operations file on the 112th the ARRB collected even discusses that and it should be required reading for this dialog in any event because it talks about what the MIG mission and roles were.

It was the Secret Service's call....Vince probably knows but I don't recollect a military presence in either Miami or Tampa that  fall, where there were major SS concerns (they called on the CIA for advance work in Miami). 

Its also worth noting that a Secret Service call for uniformed military would be different than a practice of using plain clothes military intelligence personnel since that would involve separate channels.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Larry Hancock

[Joe Bauer]

13 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

Personally I find that quite reasonable, especially given that advance Secret Service lead Lawson prepared an extensive report on his security preparations and that involved the DPD calling up police reserves and its own intelligence unit reserves (one of whom I interviewed on his duties that day yeas ago). Even offers from the Sheriff's office were refused as Lawson thought he had done an extensive job (it was his first advance) and the DPD support was sufficient.  

Lawson was grossly negligent in his over-confidence regarding JFK's motorcade security.

Resulting in the epic worst case scenario failure of presidential security since Lincoln.

His first advance? Wonderful.

Those 40 security protection trained personnel offered by the 112th as well as extra Sheriff department personnel could have been used to secure the rooftops of all the higher downtown motorcade fronting buildings.

With binoculars they could have scanned all the open higher floor windows just as JFK was passing underneath. Others could have been placed on the downtown motorcade streets to do the same thing.

Untrained idle minded naked eye sidewalk dwelling bystanders in Dealey Plaza just looking around easily spotted rifle toting men in the TXSBD building upper floors just minutes before JFK's arrival there. Carolyn Walthers and Aaron Rowland.

But not one motorcade security person?

When questioned many times about the lack of higher floor Dallas motorcade open window security during his many book tour promoting public appearances, SS agent Clint Hill would always respond..." Well...we just didn't have enough manpower to do so."

According to Lawson, they had this covered? Obviously not.

And if Hill was right, why turn down offered help to fill in that clear security gap?

Wonder if Lawson took his JFK slaughter security failure as hard as Hill, or even at all?

Bottom line reality fact here folks is...everyone involved in JFK's Dallas security "failed!"

In the most epic, worst case scenario nation and society damaging way.

Surprised none of those in the highest circles of JFK security planning were fired.

 

 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Rob Clark]

From the article, and I quote.... 

"He was probably the only man in the building who would recognize who former CIA officer George Joannides was and why he was really there." 

Just wondering if Jim could post any evidence at all regarding this wild speculation? This is the RICHEST thing I've read in JFK assassination research literature in quite some time...BRAVO 

[Mark Knight]

Mr. Niederhut, ridicule is a poor rebuttal.

I suggest you use factual statements of evidence, if you have them.

Not that I agree or disagree with Mr. Clark, but I really believe we can elevate the level of civility on this forum.

[Sandy Larsen]

38 minutes ago, Mark Knight said:

Mr. Niederhut, ridicule is a poor rebuttal.

I suggest you use factual statements of evidence, if you have them.

Not that I agree or disagree with Mr. Clark, but I really believe we can elevate the level of civility on this forum.

 

In W's defense, he was responding to a snarky comment.

I chuckled at both their comments... I took them as humor, not ridicule.

(But maybe that's just me.)

 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Sandy Larsen

[Mark Knight]

My purpose was to try to lower the level of "snark." 

And Mr. Clark did include a request for evidence in his most recent post.

I'm not the sole, or even the primary, moderator on the forum. But when I receive a request to review a post, as I did in this case, I attempt to respond to the request. If the post in question has been hidden, one of the other moderators may have done that. I did not.

[W. Niederhut]

1 hour ago, Mark Knight said:

My purpose was to try to lower the level of "snark." 

And Mr. Clark did include a request for evidence in his most recent post.

I'm not the sole, or even the primary, moderator on the forum. But when I receive a request to review a post, as I did in this case, I attempt to respond to the request. If the post in question has been hidden, one of the other moderators may have done that. I did not.

Mark,

     My question today about preferred crow entrees for Mr. Clark needs to be interpreted in the context of an older thread on this forum in which Mr. Clark posted some derisive, defamatory claims about the late Col. L. Fletcher Prouty-- quite similar to those published in the past by the late John McAdams.

     Mr. DiEugenio's recent essay at Kennedys and King debunked some of the McAdams/Clark defamatory claims about Mr. Prouty.

     Hence, my question for Mr. Clark about his preferred crow recipes.

     Naturally, I regret any injury, real or imagined, that I may have inflicted upon Mr. Clark's tender feelings.

     

     

[James DiEugenio]

Part of my material that I left out was on this issue of having military supplements to the SS.

Malcolm Blunt surfaced evidence in one of the memos he recovered that, relying on Bouck, the Quinn/ Wray nexus was working from the assumption that this almost never happened. And if it did it was only on military bases.

I did not want to pile on any further, so I did not include that specific part of Malcolm's Case.   Vince Palamara has so many pictures of this, that are not on bases, that it is kind of ridiculous that it was ever entertained.  

As Vince proves and as Malcolm's work shows, it was the Secret Service's call to have these supplements. 

Why it was not taken advantage of in Dallas is a mystery. As Malcolm shows, there were some people who were upset about that decline in San Antonio.

Edited June 8, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[Ron Bulman]

Vince was the first one I thought of regarding the "stand down".  I have read about it before but am not well versed in the details as Larry or others.  My first thoughts were of as Jim mentions, multiple pictures of military personnel guarding parade routes in major cities, I believe in the US.  I looked around a little and did not find any of them readily available though I still believe I have seen such, and, that he has written about this (maybe just posts on here).

So, I went to Survivor's Guilt.  He has one page on this, page 143.  He acknowledges Prouty's many statements about the stand down.  "In fact, just the day before, when JFK visited San Antonio, Forty military police from Ft. Sam Houston, Texas performed traffic control, Motorcade Rout Security, and intersection control: even a police helicopter was utilized along the route ... (did Dallas have a police helicopter, if not a military one would have been useful)".  "regardless of the merits of Prouty's often contested claim, the facts are that: a) the military unit was used the day before and b) there was precedent for this:  Chicago 3/63, ... El Paso 6/63, Duluth 9/63, and the Florida trip of 11/18/63.  "... ,the role of the military men was to line the streets and face the crowd, looking for signs of trouble."

"As chief Inspector Michael W. Torina conveyed to author Wayne Hyde in a book written before the assassination, "If exceptionally large crowds are expected ... the Secret Service may call upon the armed forces to station troops along the line of march".

There were large crowds in Houston and San Antonio the day before and late that evening (11:00 P.M.) in Fort Worth.  Why would they not expect large crowds in a parade down Main Street in Dallas?

My questions are not so much if there was a stand down, but if so, why?  If not, why were they not instead called up?  If there was precedence for military lining a parade route why was it not done in Dallas of all places?  The SS knew Ambassador Adili Stevenson had been spat upon and hit with a placard.  They knew LBJ and Ladybird had been accosted there in the 1960 campaign.  They knew JFK was despised there by the powers that be from the Cabbell's to Hunt and Dealy to the Dallas Petroleum Club Byrd, DE Mohrenschildt, Bush and more.

Members of his SS protection team were complicit in his assassination.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Ron Bulman

[James DiEugenio]

Well, contrary to popular belief I am kind of a moderate on this case.

So I would call it negligence.

But there is a charge of criminal negligence, when it becomes just overwhelming.

Vince actually sent me pictures of about five different cities where there were military supplements out in the open, not on bases.  So why Quinn and Wray ever worked from that faulty thesis, that kind of thing really escapes me.

[Benjamin Cole]

13 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

Joe, I don't know that it was SOP  and would appreciate seeing your source on it.  The military was available on demand but normally requested as needed by the SS - for example military personnel were used on a one or more of JFK's "conservation" tour appearances that fall which were at relatively remote locations with no major urban police or law enforcement resource available. 

In addition military personnel were used for security on all military base or facility visits - normally military police.  As I recall the large operations file on the 112th the ARRB collected even discusses that and it should be required reading for this dialog in any event because it talks about what the MIG mission and roles were.

It was the Secret Service's call....Vince probably knows but I don't recollect a military presence in either Miami or Tampa that  fall, where there were major SS concerns (they called on the CIA for advance work in Miami). 

Its also worth noting that a Secret Service call for uniformed military would be different than a practice of using plain clothes military intelligence personnel since that would involve separate channels.

Larry-

(they called on the CIA for advance work in Miami).--LH 

I think I remember this from Somebody Would Have Talked. 

Is there any evidence that the Secret Service might have asked the CIA for help in Dallas?

I understand Tampa has a larger exile population than Dallas, but still....plenty of exile connections between Tampa and Dallas. 

My reason for asking is admittedly speculative. But, I have always felt CIA assets were involved in the JFKA. Those CIA assets having made connections in Tampa with the Secret Service, a redux in Dallas? The Secret Service badge someone flashed on the Grassy Knoll?  

A couple of CIA-asset guys assigned to LHO who instead turned on the President?