For Pat Speer: JFK Secret Service Agent Sam Kinney's neighbor's (Gary Loucks) revelations

[Vince Palamara]

18 hours ago, Joseph McBride said:

It did seem irregular, but Moyers was a key

advance man for Kennedy's Texas trip, and

LBJ was his boss. Moyers also helped

publicize the motorcade route. The Secret Service and the

politicians often get into turf battles, even though

the Secret Service is supposed to have the last

word on security matters. It's odd that Moyers

has never written the autobiography that would

have been expected from him, but he has too many

controversial actions to hide.

I saw your twin brother on CNN last night- ever heard of Director Steven Spielberg?

[Chris Bristow]

On 7/1/2022 at 11:28 PM, Vince Palamara said:

I tend to agree. It is hard to dismiss Loucks "revelations" as a whole, but, at the same time, I am skeptical, especially based on my own interviews with Kinney (2 in all) which pre-date the release of the 1978 HSCA interview with Kinney in 1996 by the ARRB, Kinney's death in 1997 and Loucks revelations in 2013.

After Loucks  told the story about Kinney moving the bullet I lost any faith I had in his credibility. It does not effect Kinney's cred though.

[Pat Speer]

2 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

After Loucks  told the story about Kinney moving the bullet I lost any faith I had in his credibility. It does not effect Kinney's cred though.

I don't think I was alone in concluding Kinney had moved the bullet...long before Loucks came forward and said Kinney admitted moving the bullet. As a result, it's safe to say that either 1) Kinney really did move the bullet and tell this to Loucks, or 2) Loucks had read oniine discussions of the possibility Kinney moved the bullet, and had decided to spice things up by claiming Kinney had admitted moving the bullet. 

I would have to know more about Loucks before deciding which one is more likely. 

Did anyone look into Loucks' background after he came forward? 

Edited July 3, 2022 by Pat Speer

[Chris Bristow]

39 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

I don't think I was alone in concluding Kinney had moved the bullet...long before Loucks came forward and said Kinney admitted moving the bullet. As a result, it's safe to say that either 1) Kinney really did move the bullet and tell this to Loucks, or 2) Loucks had read oniine discussions of the possibility Kinney moved the bullet, and had decided to spice things up by claiming Kinney had admitted moving the bullet. 

I would have to know more about Loucks before deciding which one is more likely. 

Did anyone look into Loucks' background after he came forward? 

I don't know that it is " safe to say"  that Kinney moved the bullet. It is an assumption made by more than one person but that does not allow us to say it's likely true. Loucks jumping on the bandwagon of an existing Theory may be interesting but in itself doesn't allow us to assume  it is true.

Maybe there are some related facts that support the story that I am not aware of. But at this point I can find no logical reason for Kinney to plant the bullet. I think the theory is lacking a credible motive for moving the bullet. 

[Pat Speer]

Just now, Chris Bristow said:

I don't know that it is " safe to say"  that Kinney moved the bullet. It is an assumption made by more than one person but that does not allow us to say it's likely true. Loucks jumping on the bandwagon of an existing Theory may be interesting but in itself doesn't allow us to assume  it is true.

Maybe there are some related facts that support the story that I am not aware of. But at this point I can find no logical reason for Kinney to plant the bullet. I think the theory is lacking a credible motive for moving the bullet. 

I said it was safe to say he either actually was told such a thing by Kinney, or was pretending he did after reading what's been written online.

As far as motive...yikes... To me it's clear as day.

The SS agents in Kennedy's detail were horrified by the assassination, and were horrified by the looky-loos who'd been trying to get a peak at the brain and blood in the limo. So Kinney started cleaning it up. He quickly realized his actions were inappropriate, however--seeing as the limo was a crime scene--and stopped mid-wash.  

He'd already picked up the bullet, however. What was he to do with it? It belonged to the Dallas authorities, who had jurisdiction over the case. If he brought it back to Washington, for what's worse, he'd have to admit he cleaned up the limo, and risk termination.  So he went Inside and placed it on the stretcher he thought had been used to bring Kennedy inside, and high-tailed it out of there. It's perfectly understandable to me, and not remotely surprising. 

We know, moreover, that Kinney was uncomfortable with his clean-up of the limo, as he never mentioned it any report. We know further that he wasn't the only one made uncomfortable by this. While the clean-up was widely reported in the press by newsmen who'd witnessed it firsthand, it went unreported in all the SS reports on the assassination, and was even rejected by William Manchester, who'd personally interviewed a number of those in Kennedy's detail. 

That no such clean-up occurred was part of LN lore, for that matter, until writers such as myself began compiling all the eyewitness accounts by newsmen, and the Disco channel admitted there was a clean-up in one of their Oswald-did-it specials. 

 

 

[Vince Palamara]

13 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

I said it was safe to say he either actually was told such a thing by Kinney, or was pretending he did after reading what's been written online.

As far as motive...yikes... To me it's clear as day.

The SS agents in Kennedy's detail were horrified by the assassination, and were horrified by the looky-loos who'd been trying to get a peak at the brain and blood in the limo. So Kinney started cleaning it up. He quickly realized his actions were inappropriate, however--seeing as the limo was a crime scene--and stopped mid-wash.  

He'd already picked up the bullet, however. What was he to do with it? It belonged to the Dallas authorities, who had jurisdiction over the case. If he brought it back to Washington, for what's worse, he'd have to admit he cleaned up the limo, and risk termination.  So he went Inside and placed it on the stretcher he thought had been used to bring Kennedy inside, and high-tailed it out of there. It's perfectly understandable to me, and not remotely surprising. 

We know, moreover, that Kinney was uncomfortable with his clean-up of the limo, as he never mentioned it any report. We know further that he wasn't the only one made uncomfortable by this. While the clean-up was widely reported in the press by newsmen who'd witnessed it firsthand, it went unreported in all the SS reports on the assassination, and was even rejected by William Manchester, who'd personally interviewed a number of those in Kennedy's detail. 

That no such clean-up occurred was part of LN lore, for that matter, until writers such as myself began compiling all the eyewitness accounts by newsmen, and the Disco channel admitted there was a clean-up in one of their Oswald-did-it specials. 

 

 

Limo Clean-Up/ Secret Service actions re: limo at Parkland Hospital:

1) "The Way We Were-1963: The Year Kennedy Was Shot" by Robert MacNeil (1988, Carrol & Graf), p. 197:"The president's car was there [Parkland Hospital], still at the point where it had pulled up, and they had taken the president out into that emergency entrance...I remember that the Secret Service men were then STARTING TO MOP UP THE BACK SEAT OF THE BIG LINCOLN THE PRESIDENT WAS PUT IN, and a few minutes later they started putting the fabric top on it. And when I went over to look at it a little closer, one of the agents waved me aside and said, 'You can't look.' Later, of course, it seemed ironic that this wall of protection went up when it of course could do no good..."

 

2) 21 H 226: Parkland Hospital Orderly Joe L. Richards: asked to get a bucket of water; he complied.

 

 

 

3) 21 H 217: Nurse Shirley Randall: was asked if she "would get someone to come and wash the blood out of the car." She said that she would, but was so nervous and excited she forgot about it.

 

 

 

4) "Time" Magazine, 11/29/63, p. 24---reporter Hugh Sidey: "A guard was set up around the Lincoln as Secret Service men got a pail of water and tried to wash the blood from the car."

 

 

 

5) ABC, 11/22/63---reporter Don Gardner:"Outside the hospital, blood had to be wiped from the limousine";

 

 

 

6) "New York Times", 11/23/63, p. 2---reporter Tom Wicker:"...the police were guarding the Presidential car closely. A bucket of water stood by the car, suggesting that the back seat had been scrubbed out."

 

 

 

7) "The Day Kennedy Was Shot" by Jim Bishop, p. 352 [1992 edition]: "...the Secret Service detail was sorry that hospital orderlies had sponged it [the limousine] out."

 

 

 

😎 "The Death of a President" by William Manchester, p. 180n [1988 edition]: "An inaccurate [?] story reported that they washed out the back seat with a bucket of water. Actually, this was contemplated."

 

 

 

9) "That Day In Dallas" by Richard Trask (1998), page 35 [based off a 7/10/85 interview with Stoughton; same as page 42 of Trask's "Pictures of the Pain"]---"[Cecil] Stoughton recalls that a man was washing the seat "with a cloth, and he had a bucket. There was blood all over the seat, and flower petals and stuff on the floor." On page 37 there is a Stoughton photo with the caption "A bucket at his feet, an agent [Kinney] is seen leaning into the back seat of the Lincoln cleaning up some of the gore." [Same photo, without this caption, appears on page 41 of "Pictures Of The Pain"];

 

 

 

10) "Pictures of The Pain" by Richard Trask (1994), pages 377 and 383 [based off a 5/23/85 interview with Thomas Craven, Jr.]---"The Secret Service cleaning the blood out of the car---the flowers still lying in the back seat---and just chaos until the police figured out what was happening, and then they started to push us off."

 

 

 

11)-12) 18 H 731-732---SS Agent Sam Kinney; 18 H 763-764---SS Agent George Hickey:
The two agents who put on the bubbletop---with the assistance of a DPD motorcycle officer---at Parkland: they are pictured in the infamous photos/films of the bucket beside the limousine: "JFK Assassination File" by DPD Chief Jesse Curry, p. 36 (see also p. 34: same photo, different angle in UPI's "Four Days", p. 25); Texas News newsreel ("Kennedy In Texas" video); WFAA/ ABC video 11/22/63; Cooper/ Sturges film; "Reasonable Doubt" by Henry Hurt (1985), p. 84;

 

 

 

13) 10/14/98 letter to Vince Palamara from Henry Burroughs--- “The limousines that had carried the Presidential party and the Vice-Presidential party were askew. An agent with a stainless steel hospital bucket was cleaning up the rear seat of the President's limousine. Flowers were strewn over rear seats of both limos.”

 

 

 

14) DPD Bobby Joe Dale---"No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), pp. 135-136"…the President was on the gurney beside the car, and they were wheeling him in. At that time, it was obvious that nobody could have survived a wound like that…Blood and matter was everywhere inside the car including a bone fragment which was oblong shaped, probably an inch to an inch and a half long by three-quarters of an inch wide. As I turned it over and looked at it, I determined that it came from some part of the forehead because there was hair on it which appeared to be near the hairline. There were other fragments around, but that was the largest piece that grabbed my attention. What stood out in my mind was that there was makeup up to the hairline. Apparently he had used makeup for the cameras to knock down the glare. It was fairly distinct where it stopped and the wrap of skin took up. Other than that, nobody messed with anything inside the car in any manner, shape, or form. Nobody said, "Clean this up!" We then put the top up and secured it."

 

 

 

15) 2/26/78 HSCA interview of Kinney—“someone wanted to wash the (Presidential) car [at Parkland]. I said no one touch.”

 

 

 

16) 18 H 801: Hurchel Jacks, Texas Highway Patrolman assigned to drive LBJ’s car in Dallas motorcade---“ We were assigned by the [Secret Service] to prevent any pictures of any kind to be taken of the President’s car or the inside.” 8/31/98 letter to author from Mrs. H.D. (Bobbie) Jacks, widow of Hurchel Jacks (Jacks passed away 12/19/95): “…he guarded Kennedy’s car to make sure that no photos were taken.” (See also “Encyclopedia of the JFK Assassination,” page 121)

 

 

 

17) CD 3 Exhibits: Milton Wright, Texas Highway Patrolman assigned to drive Mayor Cabell’s car in the Dallas motorcade---“…we were instructed to keep the news media away from the car.”

18) DPD James W. Courson & DPD Stavis Ellis---told author Larry Sneed about an incident whereupon a Secret Service agent destroyed the film of a young boy who took pictures of the limousine at Parkland [“No More Silence”, pages 130 & 148].

[Joe Bauer]

 

Okay, if 399 was found in the car what did it hit? It had to have hit something.

And with so little damage and lost copper content did it embed itself into some fabric or leather?

Was this the JFK back wound bullet and after it came out JFK's neck lost it's velocity and fell to the floor?

And what hit the pavement next to James Tague to throw a small chip of cement into his face that drew blood? Right in the middle of the overheard shots?

Edited July 4, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Pat Speer]

Vince. Here's what I've had on my website for 8 years or so. You may want to add some of these to your list.

• An 11-22-63 UPI article, most likely reflecting the words of UPI’s man-on-the-scene Merriman Smith, reported on this clean-up, stating: “Outside the hospital, blood was cleaned from the limousine.”

• An 11-23-63 New York Times story by Tom Wicker similarly reported, “A bucket of water stood by the car, suggesting that the back seat had been scrubbed out.” (In the 1965 anthology John Fitzgerald Kennedy...As We Remember Him, and then again in his 1978 book On Press, Wicker explained just why this bucket suggested as much and specified that it wasn't just a bucket of water, but “a bucket of bloody water.”)

• An article on the assassination by Hugh Sidey in the 12-20-63 issue of Time Magazine confirmed these accounts, and claimed he'd witnessed: “A young man, I assume he was a Secret Service man, with a sponge and a bucket of red water, and he was trying to wipe up the blood and what looked like flakes of flesh and brains in the back seat.” (Sidey repeated this allegation in an 11-28-88 Time article. He wrote: "The presidential limousine rested at Parkland Hospital. A grim young man was washing away the blood and flesh that had splattered the leather upholstery...The young man in his neat dark suit, sleeves pushed up, swabbed the seats. They glistened in their miserable wetness. Beside the car was a bucket with brownish red water. If any doubt remained about this calamity, it was swept away in one glance at that bucket. So simple. so hideous." )

• And as if that weren't enough, Newsweek’s Charles Roberts also confirmed these accounts. In his 1967 defense of the Warren Report, modestly entitled The Truth About The Assassination, Roberts said simply that on 11-22-63 he saw two Secret Service men "starting to put the fabric top" on the President's limo, and thought "Why now?" Now that was vague, but Roberts would later expand on this. In an interview conducted for Robert MacNeil's 1988 book The Way we Were, Roberts admitted that he'd actually seen these agents “mop up the back seat” before putting on the fabric top, and that he'd thought it “ironic” that one of the Secret Service agents waved him aside and told him “you can’t look,” when "this wall of protection...of course could do no good."

• And then, for good measure, there's Sid Davis, a reporter for Westinghouse Radio. On 11-9-13, in a taped interview with The Newseum, Davis shared that when he arrived at Parkland Hospital ”'I could see the Secret Service agents cleaning up the back of the limousine. I went to take a look and a friend of mine, Hugh Sidey of Time Magazine, said 'Don’t look, it’s too horrible.'"

Thus, five respected newsmen, all verified to have been at Parkland Hospital on 11-22-63, claimed they saw either someone cleaning blood from the limo, or the bloody bucket used in this clean-up.

And they weren't alone. In the decades following the assassination, White House photographer Cecil Stoughton, Associated Press photographer Henry Burroughs, and ambulance driver Aubrey Rike added their names to the list of those witnessing this clean-up. In 1983, Life Magazine--not exactly a propagator of conspiracy theories--published a photo taken by Stoughton of a bucket beside the limo with the caption "Outside Parkland, agents clean the bloody limousine." In Richard Trask’s 1994 book Pictures of the Pain, moreover, a number of similar photographs were published, all taken by Stoughton, and all showing a bucket by the limousine.

 

Edited July 4, 2022 by Pat Speer

[Pat Speer]

6 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

The Harper fragment?

Please explain.

Okay, if 399 was found in the car what did it hit? It had to have hit something.

And with so little damage and lost copper content did it embed itself into some fabric or leather?

Was this the JFK back wound bullet and after it came out JFK's neck lost it's velocity and fell to the floor?

And what hit the pavement next to James Tague to throw a small chip of cement into his face that drew blood? Right in the middle of the overheard shots?

I have long concluded that: 

CE 399 was a short round, that barely struck Kennedy, thereby creating the shallow back wound. It was found in the limo.

It did not hit the interior of the limo.

The neck wound was not connected to the back wound. The neck wound most probably connected to the low entrance on the back of the skull. This would explain why the neck was not dissected, at least not officially. If they had discovered a pathway between these two wounds, after all, they would almost certainly have had to say there were two shooters.

The lead fragment that struck the curb was most probably the missing middle of the bullet that struck Kennedy on the skull, at the supposed exit. This was the second of three loud sounds. The third sound was, I suspect, a diversionary firecracker, which was set off behind the arcade on top of the knoll. 

 

[Ray Mitcham]

2 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

 

Vince. Here's what I've had on my website for 8 years or so. You may want to add some of these to your list.

• An 11-22-63 UPI article, most likely reflecting the words of UPI’s man-on-the-scene Merriman Smith, reported on this clean-up, stating: “Outside the hospital, blood was cleaned from the limousine.”

• An 11-23-63 New York Times story by Tom Wicker similarly reported, “A bucket of water stood by the car, suggesting that the back seat had been scrubbed out.” (In the 1965 anthology John Fitzgerald Kennedy...As We Remember Him, and then again in his 1978 book On Press, Wicker explained just why this bucket suggested as much and specified that it wasn't just a bucket of water, but “a bucket of bloody water.”)

• An article on the assassination by Hugh Sidey in the 12-20-63 issue of Time Magazine confirmed these accounts, and claimed he'd witnessed: “A young man, I assume he was a Secret Service man, with a sponge and a bucket of red water, and he was trying to wipe up the blood and what looked like flakes of flesh and brains in the back seat.” (Sidey repeated this allegation in an 11-28-88 Time article. He wrote: "The presidential limousine rested at Parkland Hospital. A grim young man was washing away the blood and flesh that had splattered the leather upholstery...The young man in his neat dark suit, sleeves pushed up, swabbed the seats. They glistened in their miserable wetness. Beside the car was a bucket with brownish red water. If any doubt remained about this calamity, it was swept away in one glance at that bucket. So simple. so hideous." )

• And as if that weren't enough, Newsweek’s Charles Roberts also confirmed these accounts. In his 1967 defense of the Warren Report, modestly entitled The Truth About The Assassination, Roberts said simply that on 11-22-63 he saw two Secret Service men "starting to put the fabric top" on the President's limo, and thought "Why now?" Now that was vague, but Roberts would later expand on this. In an interview conducted for Robert MacNeil's 1988 book The Way we Were, Roberts admitted that he'd actually seen these agents “mop up the back seat” before putting on the fabric top, and that he'd thought it “ironic” that one of the Secret Service agents waved him aside and told him “you can’t look,” when "this wall of protection...of course could do no good."

• And then, for good measure, there's Sid Davis, a reporter for Westinghouse Radio. On 11-9-13, in a taped interview with The Newseum, Davis shared that when he arrived at Parkland Hospital ”'I could see the Secret Service agents cleaning up the back of the limousine. I went to take a look and a friend of mine, Hugh Sidey of Time Magazine, said 'Don’t look, it’s too horrible.'"

Thus, five respected newsmen, all verified to have been at Parkland Hospital on 11-22-63, claimed they saw either someone cleaning blood from the limo, or the bloody bucket used in this clean-up.

 

[George Govus]

I feel like I'm climbing a ladder of assumptions. Inevitable, perhaps, with this murder. A short (undercharged) shot, which barely penetrated Kennedy's back, fell out into the limo, and then was picked up by Kinney, who, aghast, began tidying up the limo, only to come to his senses and desist. Yet he went on and planted the bullet at Parkland. A conscientious Secret Service agent, say, who didn't have his head screwed on right at that time. Was he one of the ones out clubbing and drinking the night before? I'll have to consult my copy of Survivor's Guilt to see. As far as I'm concerned, each and every one of the agents who were carousing the night before 22 November demonstrated consciousness of what was to come.

It is nice to have a notion what became of the bullet causing Kennedy's back wound. I especially like that bullet not being made of ice, and delivering a paralytic agent. But what was the point of firing a short round at Kennedy in the first place? Or was it a misfire, a defective round? Analysis of the MC ammunition, as a class, showed it to be largely uniform in its manufacture, making it less likely, it seems to me, that a short round was unintentional.

If a shot to the back of his skull transited to exit Kennedy's throat, would that have caused him to reach up and grab at his throat, at a neat little hole, resembling an entrance wound, and sized like the wound from a .22 caliber shell? A back to front shot exiting his throat would not have come from much of an elevated position, I don't think, and, whether from the South Knoll, or behind Kennedy, you are still left with the question of what became of the throat shot bullet. Disappeared by (fill in the blank) (A) Secret Service, (B) FBI, (C) autopsists.

And then, I presume, Kennedy took two more shots to the head, higher up, delivered nearly simultaneously. Counting the shot that missed, hit the curb and struck James Tague, that makes five shots. Whoops, I forgot Connally. Six shots. Of course, not many earwitnesses came up with that number. And it's a heavy lift for one furshlugginer Mannlicher Carcano. I guess conspiracists, knowing the government would "fix it in the mix," wouldn't be counting how many shots they were taking.

My. Head. Hurts.

[Pat Speer]

5 hours ago, George Govus said:

I feel like I'm climbing a ladder of assumptions. Inevitable, perhaps, with this murder. A short (undercharged) shot, which barely penetrated Kennedy's back, fell out into the limo, and then was picked up by Kinney, who, aghast, began tidying up the limo, only to come to his senses and desist. Yet he went on and planted the bullet at Parkland. A conscientious Secret Service agent, say, who didn't have his head screwed on right at that time. Was he one of the ones out clubbing and drinking the night before? I'll have to consult my copy of Survivor's Guilt to see. As far as I'm concerned, each and every one of the agents who were carousing the night before 22 November demonstrated consciousness of what was to come.

It is nice to have a notion what became of the bullet causing Kennedy's back wound. I especially like that bullet not being made of ice, and delivering a paralytic agent. But what was the point of firing a short round at Kennedy in the first place? Or was it a misfire, a defective round? Analysis of the MC ammunition, as a class, showed it to be largely uniform in its manufacture, making it less likely, it seems to me, that a short round was unintentional.

If a shot to the back of his skull transited to exit Kennedy's throat, would that have caused him to reach up and grab at his throat, at a neat little hole, resembling an entrance wound, and sized like the wound from a .22 caliber shell? A back to front shot exiting his throat would not have come from much of an elevated position, I don't think, and, whether from the South Knoll, or behind Kennedy, you are still left with the question of what became of the throat shot bullet. Disappeared by (fill in the blank) (A) Secret Service, (B) FBI, (C) autopsists.

And then, I presume, Kennedy took two more shots to the head, higher up, delivered nearly simultaneously. Counting the shot that missed, hit the curb and struck James Tague, that makes five shots. Whoops, I forgot Connally. Six shots. Of course, not many earwitnesses came up with that number. And it's a heavy lift for one furshlugginer Mannlicher Carcano. I guess conspiracists, knowing the government would "fix it in the mix," wouldn't be counting how many shots they were taking.

My. Head. Hurts.

I go through the mass of evidence in detail on my website, and eventually come to some concrete (and some not so concrete) conclusions in Chapter 20.

Shot #1. Approximate firing time: Zapruder frame 188. Hit Kennedy in back around 190, fell out in limousine. (Possibly a hand-loaded bullet.) From: the sixth floor window of the TSBD. Heard by: pretty much everyone in Dealey Plaza between the time of the shot and 10 frames afterward. Other evidence for: the wound in Kennedy’s back, probed at autopsy and found to have been a shallow wound with no passage into Kennedy's chest cavity. CE 399, the nearly pristine bullet found on a gurney in Parkland hospital, the appearance of which would be consistent with the bullet's having been hand-loaded and under-charged (which would, in turn, be consistent with this bullet's having created the shallow back wound observed at autopsy). CE 543, one of the rifle cartridge cases found in the depository, which ballistics investigator Joseph Nichol believed may have been used prior to the assassination, which, it follows, may have been the hand-loaded cartridge firing CE 399. Hugh Betzner's photograph taken just before the first shot, determined to have been taken at Z-186. Jackie Kennedy’s turning to her husband beginning at Zapruder frame 190. Phil Willis' testimony that Mrs. Kennedy snapped her head in that direction at the sound of the first shot. Secret Service Agent George Hickey's turning to his right starting around frame 193. Kennedy’s jerky head and hand movements beginning around Zapruder frame 194. Rosemary Willis’s turning to her right around frame 198. Phil Willis’ photograph taken as a reaction to the first shot, determined to have been taken at frame 202. Secret Service Agent John Ready’s turning to his right around Zapruder frame 203. President Kennedy’s lowering his right arm and lifting his left before frame 224. Connally’s testimony that he believed the first and second shot were fired very close together and indicative of automatic rifle fire. The testimony and statements of numerous witnesses indicating that the first shot rang out when Kennedy was waving (when he stopped waving just after Z-190) and as he approached the Thornton Freeway sign (which Kennedy passed at Z-207).

Jiggle analysis: Zapruder’s camera jiggles at 194.

Shot or shots #2. Approximate firing time: Zapruder frame 222.

Hit Kennedy in hairline at frame 224, exited his throat. Connally wounded in his chest, wrist, and thigh. Wounds seem instantaneous, but it seems likely they were created by separate bullets rapid-fired from a semi-automatic weapon.

From: most likely the upper floors or roof of the Dal-Tex Building.

Heard by: a few near Houston and Elm, perhaps a few on the railroad bridge. Bullet and/or bullets were either fired from a rifle equipped with a silencer, or fired from deep within a building so its sound was muffled in comparison to the other shots. Subsonic ammunition may also have been involved. It’s noted that Nellie Connally, both in her book and in her testimony, says “and then--a second shot” or “and then there was a second shot;” and that she rarely mentions hearing this second shot. In fact, she didn't mention hearing this second shot until 1966, when she said as much to Life Magazine. Since she also swore she saw her husband get hit by this shot and that it came after he yelled “No, no, no,” and since her husband’s testimony and the Zapruder film demonstrate she didn’t even look at him till frame 230 and he didn’t yell anything until after he’d already been hit, it’s safe to say she might have been confused. Neither her husband, for that matter, nor Mrs. Kennedy, recalled hearing a shot between the first shot which hit the President, and the last, which killed him. As a result it seems possible that, due to her proximity, Mrs. Connally simply heard this shot strike the President and/or her husband, and registered it as a shot, without noting that it was not as loud as the first shot.

Other evidence for: the small entrance wound in Kennedy's hairline, and the smaller wound in Kennedy's throat. CE 903, the re-enactment photo created by Arlen Specter for the Warren Commission, supposedly demonstrating the viability of the single-bullet theory, but really showing how a bullet just missing Kennedy's right shoulder might proceed to hit Connally in the back. Connally's back wound, which, according to Connally's doctors, suggested that the bullet striking Connally had not previously struck Kennedy. Connally's wrist wound, which, according to Connally's doctor, Dr. Charles Gregory, was inconsistent with a wound created by the nearly pristine bullet supposedly creating this wound, Exhibit CE 399, unless this bullet was traveling backwards. The traces of copper found on the front of Connally's clothing, which suggests that the jacket of the bullet striking Connally had been disrupted even prior to striking his wrist. The movement of Connally’s jacket forwards which briefly obscures his shirt from view in the Zapruder film. The rapid lifting of Kennedy’s hands towards his throat as seen in frames 226 and 227. (His hands were actually dropping towards his chest between 224 and 225, but they shot sharply upward at 226.) Connally’s hair jumping up and his being straightened out in his seat, only to collapse back to his right around 234. Bullet fragments removed from Connally’s wrist that do not match the bullet found on the gurney nor the fragments found in the President’s skull. (Actual bullet or bullets may have bounced out of the car off Connally’s leg, or been picked up by a Secret Service Agent. There were rumors that a hole in the floor of the limousine was discovered in early 1964, which might account for the bullet leaving Kennedy’s neck should it have been a separate bullet.)

Jiggle analysis: Zapruder’s camera jiggles around 227 and again at 231.

Shot #3. Approximate firing time: Zapruder frame 310-311.

Hit Kennedy near the temple at frame 313. Bullet fragmented. One piece of its core seems to have continued on to chip the concrete near Tague around 319.

From: the sixth floor window of the TSBD

Heard by: everyone in Dealey Plaza from the time of the shot up to 10 frames afterward. Tague would have heard this shot around 319 or 320.

Other evidence for: extensive damage to the head of the President. Explosion of skull as visible in the Zapruder film. Bullet fragments found in the President’s brain. Additional fragments believed to be linked to these fragments found underneath Nellie Connally’s seat as well as on the front seat of the limousine. Front seat fragments linked to rifle found on the sixth floor of the TSBD.

Jiggle analysis: Zapruder’s camera jiggles around 318 and 324 and again at 331.

Sound or Shot #4. Approximate firing time: Zapruder frame 320-327.

Missed or possibly not even a shot. Quite possibly a loud firecracker used as a diversionary device. The August 27, 1942 issue of Tactical and Technical Trends, a publication of the U.S. War Department, in an article on Japanese Tactics in the Philippines, described the use of firecrackers to "confuse U.S. troops as to the actual Japanese position." More to the point, Combat Lessons #4, a 1942 publication of the U.S. Army, noted that German snipers used firecrackers with slow-burning fuses that would go off after the sniper had left the area. Similarly, Combat Lessons #6, from 1944, noted that, in both the Pacific and European theaters of World War II, "enemy troops have used firecrackers for diversionary purposes, especially when trying to deceive our troops as to the positions of snipers."

And it wasn't that the U.S. failed to follow suit. Spycraft (2008), by former CIA Technical Service Director Robert Wallace, reports that by 1962 the CIA's Technical Services Division (the division, one might add, tasked with developing assassination weapons) had developed a Nightingale device, a firefight simulator comprising a variety of firecrackers with differently-timed fuses, which could be used to fool enemy forces into attacking the wrong position, or even attacking their own troops.  

And it's not as if these firefight simulators were never used. The official Air Force history of the Son Tay raid--a 1970 raid by U.S. Forces on a North Vietnamese prison, which resulted in the rescue of 50 American prisoners of war--reflects that firecrackers with timed fuses were an integral part of the raid, and that they were used to confuse the Vietnamese troops.

The use of an explosion to draw attention from the actual area of activity, a tactic widely used today by both the military, and by SWAT teams, (just google "distraction device" and see what I mean) was therefore not only known to operation planners in 1963, but was one likely to be used, should there have been multiple shooters in buildings requiring minutes to escape.

From: somewhere west of the Texas School Book Depository, possibly the railroad yards, but more probably the back of the arcade north of the grassy knoll, or the parking lot across the street. William Newman, and Abraham Zapruder, both facing the President, with the picket fence on their right and school book depository on their left, nevertheless felt the last shot came from behind them. Since a loud sound coming from behind them at this time would arrive but a split second after the sound of a third shot fired from the depository building, a sound's coming from this area would be likely to confuse Newman and Zapruder, and other witnesses nearby, and lead them to recall hearing but two shots. Sure enough, Newman, Zapruder, Mrs. Kennedy, Bobby Hargis, Clint Hill, and Paul Landis, could clearly recall but two shots, and those nearby Kennedy claiming they heard three shots mostly did so while claiming the last two shots were nearly simultaneous. A diversionary device set off in this location would, of course, draw attention from the buildings behind the President when he was shot. If this was the plan, of course...it worked. In the immediate aftermath of the shooting, the bulk of the Police and eyewitnesses looking for the shooter ran towards the grassy knoll and railroad yards, and ignored the buildings behind the motorcade.

Heard by: everyone in Dealey Plaza from the time of the explosion to 10 frames afterward. Due to their proximity, many interpreted this shot or sound as being the same shot as shot #3. Tague would have heard this explosion around 331-334, which might explain why he was initially convinced he was hit before the third shot.

Other evidence for: reports of smoke near the stockade fence. There were gusts of wind up to twenty miles an hour which may have blown the smoke in that direction. The statements of Dallas officer Joe Marshall Smith, who thought he smelled gunpowder in the parking lot west of the School Book Depository.

Jiggle analysis: camera jiggles at 324 and again at 331.

The testimony of virtually every witness in Dealey Plaza can be accommodated through this simple four shot (or sound) scenario. It doesn’t rely on the hard-to-believe single bullet theory of an undamaged bullet nor on the widespread but scarcely supported by the evidence theory of a shooter-at-the-stockade fence. Its main drawback, as far as testimony goes, is that it calls for 4 shots (or sounds) when most witnesses heard only three. This can be effectively overcome through the argument that the second shot was silenced and heard by only a few. This scenario also fails to account for three shots in the TSBD, where three shells were found. While this could be explained by the sniper’s dropping an extra shell or by the Dallas Police Department planting a shell, the thought occurs that there was seemingly an extra shell at the Tippit killing as well, where the 4 recovered casings didn’t match the 4 bullets removed from Tippit. This uncomfortable development led the Warren Commission to conclude that in fact 5 bullets were fired at Tippit, even though most witnesses heard only three shots.

Should this come as a surprise, here is a breakdown of these witnesses... Mrs. Barbara Davis (3H343) and Mrs. Charlie Virginia Davis (6H456) heard two shots. Helen Markham (3H308), Domingo Benavides (6H447), and Sam Guinyard (7H396) heard three shots. William Scoggins (3H325) and L.J. Lewis (20H534) heard "three or four." Warren Reynolds (11H435) heard "four or five or six." And Ted Callaway (3H352) heard five.

The statements of these witnesses prove most intriguing. As there were at least four shots fired at Tippit, and most witnesses thought there could have been three or less, they suggest that, should there have been a fourth shot fired at Kennedy, as I've proposed, the witnesses to that shooting might not have remembered hearing it, even if it wasn't silenced or suppressed in some manner. At the same time, moreover, the statements of these witnesses support the possibility that one of the shells found at the Tippit shooting location had not been fired that day. And this, by extension, also supports the possibility that one of the shells found in the depository had not been fired that day. While one can only speculate as to why this would be (perhaps, just perhaps, Oswald had kept an empty shell in the chambers of his weapons, perhaps as protection for his children or perhaps as protection for himself should his wife Marina get a hold of his weapons during one of their frequent domestic squabbles) it is worth noting here that the shell of the bullet fired at General Walker was never located. If Oswald and/or those setting up Oswald had left it in the chamber of his rifle, this could very well explain the third shell found in the sniper’s nest.

Supporting that only two shots were fired from the sniper's nest, moreover, is the earliest statements and testimony of the three men on the floor directly beneath the sniper's nest. The testimony of all three supports that there was no first shot miss, and that the last two shots came right after another, too fast to have been fired by the rifle found upstairs. Harold Norman’s statements, so often used to prove that Oswald was the lone assassin, not only reflected that Kennedy was hit by the first shot, but that only two shells dropped to the floor in the firing sequence.

 

[Adam Johnson]

I have always had a problem with this statement: (the wound in Kennedy’s back, probed at autopsy and found to have been a shallow wound with no passage into Kennedy's chest cavity.) 

The probing of this back wound was said to be done by a pathologist's little finger....look at your own little finger right Now.......clench your fist and stick out your little finger........is it 5 " long...no.....4" long ....no....well it must be 3" long at least......No... so how would you expect a small finger to give you an accurate depiction of what the wound was...other then shallow.

Your little finger can't tell how deep the wound ran...your finger can't tell what track the bullet made, if it deviated upwards or sideways...when all you have is 2" of a finger trying to poke its way into a 6.5mm(listed at autopsy to be a 7mm x 4mm shaped) diameter hole in a body displaying rigor mortis....what result other then a shallow wound can a 2"/2.5" finger accurately make.

There is every possibility that back entry wound did enter further into JFK's body, it may have even separated its lead core and created two tracks.......remember we have some non autopsy facts to help us figure it out.....

JFK's shirt collar and tie had a missile pass thru them and leave holes! His suit jacket and business shirt had holes in the back of them, Something struck the inside of the limo windscreen and left a crack...the fbi found lead particles on the inside of the limo windscreen when inspected in the WH garage and put them into evidence. 

So lets Occam's Razor this thing......

You have clothing and a body that show a bullet wound in the back and part of that bullet or all of that bullet exited the body thru the front of the neck leaving another wound and damaging the clothing.....you have film showing the victim reaching up to his throat/neck area after being struck by a missile and you have a roadside photographer who snaps a photo showing a crack in the limo windscreen just after the president is hit in the back and he's raised his hands and his wife is reaching over grabbing his arm trying to see what has happened. Oh and later you have the FBI finding lead particles in the crack on the inside of the limo windscreen. 

Obviously he was shot from the front in the throat from the south knoll....wait, what, no that's Not right!............

The simplest explanation is often the correct explanation......SHOT from a lower trajectory, hit in the back, bullet or part of the lead core exits thru the front throat/neck area then wizzes between other vehicle occupants and strikes the inside of the limousine windscreen creating a crack which is photographed on Elm Street from outside the vehicle looking in only seconds after it happens. 

A.J

Edited July 4, 2022 by Adam Johnson
Spelling errors

[George Govus]

Thank you,  Adam, I am climbing in off the window ledge, even as we speak. There is no place like home. There is no place like home. There is..

[Chris Bristow]

22 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

I said it was safe to say he either actually was told such a thing by Kinney, or was pretending he did after reading what's been written online.safe to say he either actually was told such a thing by Kinney, or was pretending he did after reading what's been written online.

As far as motive...yikes... To me it's clear as day.

The SS agents in Kennedy's detail were horrified by the assassination, and were horrified by the looky-loos who'd been trying to get a peak at the brain and blood in the limo. So Kinney started cleaning it up. He quickly realized his actions were inappropriate, however--seeing as the limo was a crime scene--and stopped mid-wash.  

He'd already picked up the bullet, however. What was he to do with it? It belonged to the Dallas authorities, who had jurisdiction over the case. If he brought it back to Washington, for what's worse, he'd have to admit he cleaned up the limo, and risk termination.  So he went Inside and placed it on the stretcher he thought had been used to bring Kennedy inside, and high-tailed it out of there. It's perfectly understandable to me, and not remotely surprising. 

We know, moreover, that Kinney was uncomfortable with his clean-up of the limo, as he never mentioned it any report. We know further that he wasn't the only one made uncomfortable by this. While the clean-up was widely reported in the press by newsmen who'd witnessed it firsthand, it went unreported in all the SS reports on the assassination, and was even rejected by William Manchester, who'd personally interviewed a number of those in Kennedy's detail. 

That no such clean-up occurred was part of LN lore, for that matter, until writers such as myself began compiling all the eyewitness accounts by newsmen, and the Disco channel admitted there was a clean-up in one of their Oswald-did-it specials. 

 

 

"I don't think I was alone in concluding Kinney had moved the bullet...long before Loucks came forward and said Kinney admitted moving the bullet. As a result, it's safe to say that he either was told such a thing by Kinney, or was pretending he did after reading what's been written online.""
  I would think it is very safe to say Loucks may have made up the story because it was already online. I don't think it becomes any safer to say anything about Kinney based on Loucks claims simply because he had access to the story online.

 When we attribute peoples behavior to being 'horrified' it can explain crazy illogical behavior and there is no doubt they were horrified. But SS agents destroying evidence is a hard one to grasp. They could have easily put the top on or moved the limo and they did both. This makes it harder to accept that they went to the trouble of getting a bucket and did some cleaning only because they were horrified.
 I have had a long standing question about the limo seat and the wiping up of the blood. Looking at the back seat I would expect to see multiple large wipe marks if someone wiped a sponge across the seat. Did no one attempt to clean the main part of the gore. Did they just clean around the edges?
Sorry for any typos here. My neighbor just drove their car thru my garage door a few minutes ago. Thought a bomb went off!

Edited July 4, 2022 by Chris Bristow