For Pat Speer: JFK Secret Service Agent Sam Kinney's neighbor's (Gary Loucks) revelations

[Pat Speer]

4 hours ago, Adam Johnson said:

I have always had a problem with this statement: (the wound in Kennedy’s back, probed at autopsy and found to have been a shallow wound with no passage into Kennedy's chest cavity.) 

The probing of this back wound was said to be done by a pathologist's little finger....look at your own little finger right Now.......clench your fist and stick out your little finger........is it 5 " long...no.....4" long ....no....well it must be 3" long at least......No... so how would you expect a small finger to give you an accurate depiction of what the wound was...other then shallow.

Your little finger can't tell how deep the wound ran...your finger can't tell what track the bullet made, if it deviated upwards or sideways...when all you have is 2" of a finger trying to poke its way into a 6.5mm(listed at autopsy to be a 7mm x 4mm shaped) diameter hole in a body displaying rigor mortis....what result other then a shallow wound can a 2"/2.5" finger accurately make.

There is every possibility that back entry wound did enter further into JFK's body, it may have even separated its lead core and created two tracks.......remember we have some non autopsy facts to help us figure it out.....

JFK's shirt collar and tie had a missile pass thru them and leave holes! His suit jacket and business shirt had holes in the back of them, Something struck the inside of the limo windscreen and left a crack...the fbi found lead particles on the inside of the limo windscreen when inspected in the WH garage and put them into evidence. 

So lets Occam's Razor this thing......

You have clothing and a body that show a bullet wound in the back and part of that bullet or all of that bullet exited the body thru the front of the neck leaving another wound and damaging the clothing.....you have film showing the victim reaching up to his throat/neck area after being struck by a missile and you have a roadside photographer who snaps a photo showing a crack in the limo windscreen just after the president is hit in the back and he's raised his hands and his wife is reaching over grabbing his arm trying to see what has happened. Oh and later you have the FBI finding lead particles in the crack on the inside of the limo windscreen. 

Obviously he was shot from the front in the throat from the south knoll....wait, what, no that's Not right!............

The simplest explanation is often the correct explanation......SHOT from a lower trajectory, hit in the back, bullet or part of the lead core exits thru the front throat/neck area then wizzes between other vehicle occupants and strikes the inside of the limousine windscreen creating a crack which is photographed on Elm Street from outside the vehicle looking in only seconds after it happens. 

A.J

According to Humes, the back wound did not extend into the muscle tissue below the entrance location. Specter tried to explain this away by saying it slid between two muscles. The problem is that there was only one muscle in that location, the trapezius muscle. The bruises Humes observed making him think a bullet had passed, moreover, were on the front of the neck. So it's a myth that the bullet passed from back to front. This was added in the days after the shooting, so that they could say only two shots struck Kennedy.

So the record remains that the doctors found no evidence for a bullet's passage from the back wound location to the throat wound location. 

[Adam Johnson]

Hi Pat,

Again i state, how can probing of a wound by your pinky finger result in anything other than saying the wound was shallow and went nowhere. Of course 8.5 hours after death your going to get resistance when pushing a large object(finger) into a 7mm x 4mm wound.

Also if a bullet or part of a bullet didnt tranverse the presidents body from back to front you now have: 1. Shot to back, 2. Shot to throat, 3. Shot hit Connelly's back, 4. Shot hit interior of windscreen , 5. Shot miss then hit Tague, 6. Shot hit president in head from front right.

Plus you still have to have a bullet fired from the rear strike the chrome windshield and leave a round indent . You also have to explain how the throat entrance wound bullet didn't leave an exit wound and simply vanished causing no other damage to the body except a hole in the throat.  You also have to explain how the top of the right lung became bruised if a bullet in the back didn't proceed past the trapezius muscle. 

A.J

 

[Benjamin Cole]

On 7/2/2022 at 1:31 PM, Vince Palamara said:

One of three lengthy interviews I did with the follow-up car driver on 11/22/63 (and countless other trips) 1994. Sam confirms that he was solely responsible for the bubble top's removal on 11/22/63; the right rear of JFK's head was gone AND he had the skull piece while on the C-130 transport plane; his windshield was splattered with blood; he believes in conspiracy; no missed shots- all 3 shots made their mark; JFK did NOT order the agents off his limo; confirms that Emory Roberts did indeed order the other agents not to move during the assassination (yet gives it a "benign" spin); etc. 

 

 

Whether or not I agree with Palamara on everything, he has recorded his interviews and put them up where all can see. This is a tremendous asset to all, and btw, in the old days, making videos was a lot of work and expense.  

As much as I "want to believe" certain unrecorded interviews...we are stuck only with the recollections of other humans with all the foibles thereof. 

For example, in an unrecorded interview, David Atlee Phillips said he thought the JFKA had involved USA intel agencies. This fits in perfectly with my narrative of the JFKA...but did Phillips really say that? 

Hats off to Palamara. 

[Pat Speer]

5 hours ago, Adam Johnson said:

Hi Pat,

Again i state, how can probing of a wound by your pinky finger result in anything other than saying the wound was shallow and went nowhere. Of course 8.5 hours after death your going to get resistance when pushing a large object(finger) into a 7mm x 4mm wound.

Also if a bullet or part of a bullet didnt tranverse the presidents body from back to front you now have: 1. Shot to back, 2. Shot to throat, 3. Shot hit Connelly's back, 4. Shot hit interior of windscreen , 5. Shot miss then hit Tague, 6. Shot hit president in head from front right.

Plus you still have to have a bullet fired from the rear strike the chrome windshield and leave a round indent . You also have to explain how the throat entrance wound bullet didn't leave an exit wound and simply vanished causing no other damage to the body except a hole in the throat.  You also have to explain how the top of the right lung became bruised if a bullet in the back didn't proceed past the trapezius muscle. 

A.J

 

A. Bullets--particularly high-velocity rifle bullets--leave easily probe-able paths through muscle. They don't push muscle aside that closes back together hours later. They leave what is known as a permanent cavity. Humes was unable to find such a cavity visually or even with a probe.

B. All known wounds and bullet fragments are accounted for in my 4 shot (or sound) scenario. 1. Shot to back. 2. Shot to back of JFK's head that exits throat and strikes Connally OR shot to back of JFK's head that exits throat while a second shot in this same burst strikes Connally. 3. Tangential shot to the top of JFK's head, with the two largest bullet fragments striking the windshield and windshield frame, and a third just clearing the windshield and striking the curb near Tague. 4. A loud sound from in back of the arcade that is most probably a diversionary device.

C. The bruise on the lung supports my scenario. A bruise caused by a passing bullet would radiate in an oval. A bruise caused by a bullet's impact on the lung would leave a pyramid-shaped bruise with the top of the pyramid being the point of impact. A bruise caused by a bullet's impact upon T-1, in which T-1 was smashed into the top of the lung, and the bullet was deflected outwards, however, would give the appearance of an upside down pyramid. Humes testified that the bruise was an upside-down pyramid. This was so problematic to the supposed route of the bullet that Baden and the HSCA just ignored him and presented the bruise as an upright pyramid. This was typical, moreover, for the HSCA panel. When they ran into things that conflicted with the single-assassin solution, they ignored them or lied about them. 

 

[Adam Johnson]

Pat,

Why wasn't the back wound probed properly...no metal probe was used...they used a finger.....looking into the wound (visually) as you say is laughable, it was a small hole 1/2 the size of the nail on your pinky finger. 

Have you read pages 168-170 of Jerrol Custers ARRB testimony? In that testimony he states that as X-ray technician for the autopsy he took approximately 16 to 20 X-rays that night. At least 3 of those are missing as of the time of the ARRB deposition conducted in 1998 by Gunn, Horne and Gosley. Two tangential skull X-rays and an AP cervical spine X-ray showing C3 and C4 of the President's spine and his chest area.

Heres a synopsis.........On 28th October, 1997, Jerrol Custer provided a deposition to the Assassination Records Review Board (ARRB). He claimed he was certain he took x-rays of the C3/C4 region of the neck and that those x-rays showed numerous fragments. Custer added that he suspected the reason those x-rays disappeared was that they showed a large number of bullet fragments. In the deposition he also stated that when Kennedy was lifted and turned to take thoracic X-rays a portion of a bullet fell out of Kennedy's back wound, not a whole bullet. In Custers own words when later interviewed by William Law: "It wasn't complete because there was some fragmentation. Some areas of destruction on the bullet." This bullet was taken away by FBI agents, Francis X. O'Neill and James W. Sibert.

So the X-rays showing fragmentation at C3/C4 disappears, the bullet fragment given to the FBI agents that falls from the body disappears and Arlen Spectors single bullet theory is probably based on the fact that the cover-up architects know that a bullet probably did hit Kennedy high on the back, fragment and a portion exited the President's throat. They have wounds and clothing to prove this happened, they just twist the truth to make the bullet pass thru the president and onto Connelly fully intact.

Pat we agree on some things regarding the assassination but not what happened with the first shot to strike the president that day. I personally believe that shot came from the 2nd or 3rd floor of the Daltex building, if it had come from the 6th floor of the TSBD the wound would of had a massive downward angle thru the body and president Kennedy would of had no wound to the throat that we see him reacting too in the Z film.

Stay safe.

A.J

 

 

[Joe Bauer]

13 hours ago, Adam Johnson said:

Hi Pat,

Again i state, how can probing of a wound by your pinky finger result in anything other than saying the wound was shallow and went nowhere. Of course 8.5 hours after death your going to get resistance when pushing a large object(finger) into a 7mm x 4mm wound.

Also if a bullet or part of a bullet didnt tranverse the presidents body from back to front you now have: 1. Shot to back, 2. Shot to throat, 3. Shot hit Connelly's back, 4. Shot hit interior of windscreen , 5. Shot miss then hit Tague, 6. Shot hit president in head from front right.

Plus you still have to have a bullet fired from the rear strike the chrome windshield and leave a round indent . You also have to explain how the throat entrance wound bullet didn't leave an exit wound and simply vanished causing no other damage to the body except a hole in the throat.  You also have to explain how the top of the right lung became bruised if a bullet in the back didn't proceed past the trapezius muscle. 

A.J.

Agree.

There is a lot of swelling internally from deep traumatic wounds. Making a finger and even metal probe insertion challenging.

Even though I feel the bullet that first hit Kennedy exited his neck and struck Connally, I also feel more than three shots were fired. 

The front windshield frame indentation ( into heavy metal ) took a missile of great velocity force to create. And from the pictures I have seen of it...came in from an angle more from the right back versus the left back angle from the so-called 6th floor window perch.

The idea that CE 399 was found in the Presidential limo upon cleaning the back seat area is ridiculous. For the reasons we have already mentioned.

If CE 399 was found in the limo, it had to have struck something to end it's high velocity force flight.

The only material in the back of the limo that "might" have stopped the bullet without damaging it could have been thick, heavy leather covered upholstery?

And did anyone find any tears ( entry and exit ) in any areas of the back seat area upholstery?

And there was more bullet metal found in Connally's body than was missing from CE 399. no?

 

 

Edited July 5, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Joe Bauer]

[Joe Bauer]

How many here have seen this X-ray image above of John Connally's wrist bone injury from 11,22,1963?

Look at it closely.

This is a significant bone injury.

Cyril Wecht has always described it's impact damage being of a "shattering" degree.

Looks shattered to me.

And this is "after" this same bullet had also hit one of John Connally's ribs and fractured that as well.

The bullet that caused this damage to Connally's wrist bone had it's trajectory changed to be able to leave the wrist and imbed itself into Connally's thigh as well. That is force against force.

Connally was not a "skinny" 6 foot 4 inch tall man. He was well built with large bones including his wrist bones. 

Hardly damaged CE 399 could not have been the bullet that caused Connally's injuries.

Testing other Carcano fired bullets where they met bone resistance like Connally's should have proven this to a laughably absurd degree.

 

 

Edited July 5, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Chuck Schwartz]

Here is Doug Horne's presentation on Black Ops radio on the JFK autopsy..

 

[Keyvan Shahrdar]

I have thought about this video for some time.  To me:

Second hand source is questionable, but let me verbalize my thoughts on it.

Kinney finding a bullet in the limo and taking it inside the hospital and placing it in the stretcher raises many questions.

1. Kinney is a SSA, why would he place the bullet in the stretcher when he could have given it to Secret Service agent Richard Johnsen?

2. Did Kinney lie to Loucks?  Possible if Kinney did not want his family & friends to know he was involved in the conspiracy.  This is a way to justify "I was not involved."

3. Did Kinney plant the bullet in the stretcher?  Again, why wouldn't he give it to the Secret Service agent Richard Johnsen?  Why the stretcher?  Does it make it seem more realistic to put the bullet in the stretcher than to give it to someone?  Why wouldn't the conspirators say, the bullet was found in the car?  They would have come up with the SBT regardless of where the bullet was found.  I can see why they wanted a pristine bullet in order to match to the rifle.

To me, this story from Loucks does not sound plausible.

[Joe Bauer]

1 hour ago, Keyvan Shahrdar said:

I have thought about this video for some time.  To me:

Second hand source is questionable, but let me verbalize my thoughts on it.

Kinney finding a bullet in the limo and taking it inside the hospital and placing it in the stretcher raises many questions.

1. Kinney is a SSA, why would he place the bullet in the stretcher when he could have given it to Secret Service agent Richard Johnsen?

2. Did Kinney lie to Loucks?  Possible if Kinney did not want his family & friends to know he was involved in the conspiracy.  This is a way to justify "I was not involved."

3. Did Kinney plant the bullet in the stretcher?  Again, why wouldn't he give it to the Secret Service agent Richard Johnsen?  Why the stretcher?  

All totally logical and reasonable points.

Kinney finding and then removing prime importance evidence from the crime scene and then corruptly manipulating any further investigation even more by placing this bullet where it could be found elsewhere ( and where it would initiate a million more suspicion minded questions- which it did ) is beyond any rational motivation explanation imo.

Kinney had to have known how serious a crime his doing these things was. It was so blatantly wrong it was crazy!

I can't for one second buy Kinney's stated reasoning for picking up the bullet from the limo while cleaning it and then pocketing it. That he didn't want JFK to be remembered that way? PLEASE!

That didn't make any sense at all. All the brain matter and blood and skull pieces splashed everywhere had already defined JFK's death as a horrifically savage and brutal event. JFK's murder will always be remembered in this horrific scene way no matter whether a pristine bullet was found in the limo or not.

If caught removing this bullet and placing it in some other place, Kinney would have not just been immediately fired from the SS but also arrested and convicted of this serious crime.

He was willing to risk all that to try to make the killing scene less ugly or to protect JFK's memory?

Heck, if Kinney was so in shock about the killing I don't see how it came into his head to do something so irrational. Seems a normal security trained and assigned person would have just gone on automatic order following mental mode. Pass anything of importance on to your superior officer, correct? Or, in the least, keep the bullet and then later in the day toss it into a storm drain or grassy lot?

This is one of those classic "suspend belief" situations in the JFK story.

 

 

 

 

[Pat Speer]

5 hours ago, Adam Johnson said:

Pat,

Why wasn't the back wound probed properly...no metal probe was used...they used a finger.....looking into the wound (visually) as you say is laughable, it was a small hole 1/2 the size of the nail on your pinky finger. 

Have you read pages 168-170 of Jerrol Custers ARRB testimony? In that testimony he states that as X-ray technician for the autopsy he took approximately 16 to 20 X-rays that night. At least 3 of those are missing as of the time of the ARRB deposition conducted in 1998 by Gunn, Horne and Gosley. Two tangential skull X-rays and an AP cervical spine X-ray showing C3 and C4 of the President's spine and his chest area.

Heres a synopsis.........On 28th October, 1997, Jerrol Custer provided a deposition to the Assassination Records Review Board (ARRB). He claimed he was certain he took x-rays of the C3/C4 region of the neck and that those x-rays showed numerous fragments. Custer added that he suspected the reason those x-rays disappeared was that they showed a large number of bullet fragments. In the deposition he also stated that when Kennedy was lifted and turned to take thoracic X-rays a portion of a bullet fell out of Kennedy's back wound, not a whole bullet. In Custers own words when later interviewed by William Law: "It wasn't complete because there was some fragmentation. Some areas of destruction on the bullet." This bullet was taken away by FBI agents, Francis X. O'Neill and James W. Sibert.

So the X-rays showing fragmentation at C3/C4 disappears, the bullet fragment given to the FBI agents that falls from the body disappears and Arlen Spectors single bullet theory is probably based on the fact that the cover-up architects know that a bullet probably did hit Kennedy high on the back, fragment and a portion exited the President's throat. They have wounds and clothing to prove this happened, they just twist the truth to make the bullet pass thru the president and onto Connelly fully intact.

Pat we agree on some things regarding the assassination but not what happened with the first shot to strike the president that day. I personally believe that shot came from the 2nd or 3rd floor of the Daltex building, if it had come from the 6th floor of the TSBD the wound would of had a massive downward angle thru the body and president Kennedy would of had no wound to the throat that we see him reacting too in the Z film.

Stay safe.

A.J

 

 

My recollection is that Humes and Boswell were so convinced the bullet did not continue on beyond the skin that they thought probing it might create a false passage. That's how convinced they were. And I feel certain they were correct. The trajectory connecting the back wound's actual location to the throat wound leads right through bone. This was covered up by the WC, Clark Panel, and HSCA. 

I have a bias in that when I discover a lie in the official story, that is then repeated in all the Oswald-did-it arguments, I assume there is a reason for it. 

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Joe Bauer said:

All totally logical and reasonable points.

Kinney finding and then removing prime importance evidence from the crime scene and then corruptly manipulating any further investigation even more by placing this bullet where it could be found elsewhere ( and where it would initiate a million more suspicion minded questions- which it did ) is beyond any rational motivation explanation imo.

Kinney had to have known how serious a crime his doing these things was. It was so blatantly wrong it was crazy!

I can't for one second buy Kinney's stated reasoning for picking up the bullet from the limo while cleaning it and then pocketing it. That he didn't want JFK to be remembered that way? PLEASE!

That didn't make any sense at all. All the brain matter and blood and skull pieces splashed everywhere had already defined JFK's death as a horrifically savage and brutal event. JFK's murder will always be remembered in this horrific scene way no matter whether a pristine bullet was found in the limo or not.

If caught removing this bullet and placing it in some other place, Kinney would have not just been immediately fired from the SS but also arrested and convicted of this serious crime.

He was willing to risk all that to try to make the killing scene less ugly or to protect JFK's memory?

Heck, if Kinney was so in shock about the killing I don't see how it came into his head to do something so irrational. Seems a normal security trained and assigned person would have just gone on automatic order following mental mode. Pass anything of importance on to your superior officer, correct? Or, in the least, keep the bullet and then later in the day toss it into a storm drain or grassy lot?

This is one of those classic "suspend belief" situations in the JFK story.

 

 

 

 

I disagree. If I were to semi-consciously clean up a crime scene, I would try to cover-up my actions while at the same time try to further the proper investigation. In this case, the DPD were the proper authorities. I would place the bullet somewhere it would be found, so it could be associated with the crime. That way my hands would be clean, and they would have the bullet. 

I assume you are familiar with the HSCA report on Nathan Poole, who claimed he was present when the bullet was found. My recollection is that he said there was an SS agent in the area milling around. I suspect that was Kinney, who was watching from a distance, making sure someone found the bullet.  

P.S. If Kinney's thinking was as described, it worked. No investigation was performed in Dallas or DC to determine how the bullet ended up on the stretcher. The discussion was always over whose stretcher it was, not how it got there. 

P.P.S. Someone asked if Kinney was one of the agents who went out drinking the night before the shooting. No, he was not. 

Edited July 5, 2022 by Pat Speer

[Vince Palamara]

5 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

 

I assume you are familiar with the HSCA report on Nathan Poole, who claimed he was present when the bullet was found. My recollection is that he said there was an SS agent in the area milling around. I suspect that was Kinney, who was watching from a distance, making sure someone found the bullet.  

 

Very good point!

[Lawrence Schnapf]

I interviewed Louck on several occasions to see if we should have him speak at a CAPA event. I did a "soft" cross-examination and his story did not hold up- as much as i wished it would.