Ruth Paine on "The Assassination & Mrs. Paine" film: "Well done, but powerfully awful"

[James DiEugenio]

This is from p. 141 of Destiny Betrayed, second edition.

 

"Neither Oswald's verbal or written request were sufficient enough to renounce his American citizenship.  To do that, one had to file a 'Certificate of Loss of Nationality" according to the Expatriation Act of 1907.  This document would then be forwarded to the State Department for final disposition.  Although Oswald asked for these papers, remembering his letter of seventy two hours previous about "defectors", Snyder did not give them to him.  Snyder told Oswald to think it over and return in a couple of days.  Because of Snyder's maneuvering, Oswald never signed the papers.  So he never officially renounced citizenship."

My discussion of this, and the whole Oswald journey to the USSR, is something I am very proud of, I titled this part of the book "On Instructions from his Government." CIA operative Snyder was in on Oswald's fake defection.

Edited November 6, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[Cory Santos]

10 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

This is from p. 141 of Destiny Betrayed, second edition.

 

"Neither Oswald's verbal or written request were sufficient enough to renounce his American citizenship.  To do that, one had to file a 'Certificate of Loss of Nationality" according to the Expatriation Act of 1907.  This document would then be forwarded to theState Department for final disposition.  Although Oswald asked for these papers, remembering his letter of seventy two hours previous about "defectors", Snyder did not give them to him.  Snyder told Oswald to think it over and return in a couple of days.  Because of Snyder's maneuvering, Oswald never signed the papers.  So he never officially renounced citizenship."

My discussion of this, and the whole Oswald journey to the USSR, is something I am very proud of, I titled this part of the book "On Instructions from his Government." CAI operative Snyder was in on Oswald's fake defection.

Do you think Oswald had anything to do with Powers being shot down?

[David Andrews]

One observation:

If Michael really did call Ruth and say, "We both know who is responsible," he's parroting an American accusative formulation commonly heard in period movie dialogue.  An utterance spoken when someone in a stressful situation wants to make a sharp point tacitly and dramatically, using a common, cinema-inspired, shared dialect.

A: I know who's responsible.

B: And you know who's responsible.

😄 Because it's you.

(The accidental Smiley works well here, no?)

In Ruth's case, we might infer, "It's you, and people you know."  Because you know who's responsible, and I know that you know.

Anybody who's seen a couple of Joan Crawford or Lana Turner movies speaks this dialect.  The line could have come from the last act of some Bogart picture.  The listener is always implicitly the accused.

It might not have been true.  Michael might have minimized his own involvement.  And we don't even know that it happened.  Yet the person who reported this utterance, and the persons who passed it down through legend, also would have understood this formulation.

It's such a familiar formulation, we might wonder if it had been purposely leaked, even if untrue...

Edited November 6, 2022 by David Andrews

[Joe Bauer]

"We both know who's responsible."

Near the very top of the 100 most intriguingly suspicious iconic quotes attributed to JFK event related characters.

"I am just a patsy." being number 1.

Just some of the other JFK event ones that I find most memorable - randomly cited:

"This case is cinched!" Dallas Homicide Captain Will Fritz just one day after 11,22,1963.

"President Kennedy has died...at approximately 1:pm Central standard time." Walter Cronkite on 11,22,1963.

" I will do my best. That is all I can do. I ask for your help--and God's.'' LBJ after landing at Andrews Air Force base on 11,22,1963.

" You know me...I'm Jack Ruby!" Jacob Rubenstein.

" I request uh...someone to come forward to give me legal assistance." Lee Harvey Oswald.

"Only 25 of our police force even knew Jack Ruby." DPD Chief Jesse Curry.

"My goal was to silence Oswald." Dallas County sheriff Al Maddox referencing a note Jack Ruby had passed to him.

"We are going to kill him." Dallas Police dispatcher Billy Grammer quoting a phoned in warning that he claimed was from Jack Ruby... in the after midnight hours before Oswald was killed.

"This is where they are going to get him. (Kennedy)" Rose Cheramie.

"Using a high powered rifle from a high building." Joseph Milteer.

"For like a week straight the champagne and caviar flowed." " I was the only one grieving." Virginia Murchison seamstress May Newman.

"He identified the American as Leon Oswald." Sylvia Odio.

"He ( Lee Oswald ) used my typewriter without my permission and that offended me greatly!" Ruth Paine.

Scores and even hundreds of others.

Your favorites?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Guest]

I'm still far from having a strong opinion on Ruth, but there's this one thing that really keeps bugging me, that's her copying the (alleged) LHO letter that was (allegedly) typed on her typewriter.

 Reading out of curiosity is one thing, but copying is a totally different ball game...

[Denny Zartman]

2 hours ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

I'm still far from having a strong opinion on Ruth, but there's this one thing that really keeps bugging me, that's her copying the (alleged) LHO letter that was (allegedly) typed on her typewriter.

 Reading out of curiosity is one thing, but copying is a totally different ball game...

It's so ridiculous. @Joe Bauer got it right on. Ruth is everso distressed and offended at the sight of Oswald using her typewriter without permission you can hear it in her voice years later. Of course, she wasn't so distressed at the time to actually do anything about it, but oh yes, she was greatly, greatly offended.

And this letter, so very secretive that Oswald didn't write it when he was alone but wrote it while someone was walking around him, and a letter so secretive that he tried to shield the contents by blocking the view with his body as Ruth walked past. 

So what does Oswald do with this super duper top secret letter? He leaves it out when he's not in the house for anyone to read (and copy.)

At this point I want to ask the Ruth Paine defenders: how dumb do you think we are?

[Joe Bauer]

4 hours ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

I'm still far from having a strong opinion on Ruth, but there's this one thing that really keeps bugging me, that's her copying the (alleged) LHO letter that was (allegedly) typed on her typewriter.

 Reading out of curiosity is one thing, but copying is a totally different ball game...

Her doing so very strongly suggest she didn't just want this copied letter for her sentimental memories scrap book and instead intended to use it in some way to incriminate Lee O.

Handing it over to the F.B.I.? 

Again, it was obvious RP was growingly non-supportive of Marina and Lee staying together. She admitted to attorney Gerry Spence "I didn't like him very much" in response to Spence asking her how she really felt about LO.

And growingly feeling a sense of protectiveness ( maybe even some possessiveness? ) over Marina from Lee's pressuring plans to move Marina and himself into situations and environs which Marina did not want to be in? 

If the letter draft Lee wrote on RP's typewriter and left sitting on the desk had simply been a love letter to his wife or a thank you letter to Ruth regards what she had done for his wife and child, Ruth could not have had anything so incriminating to hand over to anybody. 

 

Edited November 6, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Calvin Ye]

8 hours ago, Cory Santos said:

Do you think Oswald had anything to do with Powers being shot down?

Some researchers like Mae Brussell and Alan Weberman believe that Oswald gave secret information to Soviet Union on behalf of CIA so the Soviets could shot down Powers' plane

[Jonathan Cohen]

1 hour ago, Calvin Ye said:

Some researchers like Mae Brussell and Alan Weberman believe that Oswald gave secret information to Soviet Union on behalf of CIA so the Soviets could shot down Powers' plane

And those researchers would be profoundly mistaken. Even Powers didn't believe Oswald had anything whatsoever to do with his being shot down.

[Jonathan Cohen]

2 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

It's so ridiculous. @Joe Bauer got it right on. Ruth is everso distressed and offended at the sight of Oswald using her typewriter without permission you can hear it in her voice years later. Of course, she wasn't so distressed at the time to actually do anything about it, but oh yes, she was greatly, greatly offended.

And this letter, so very secretive that Oswald didn't write it when he was alone but wrote it while someone was walking around him, and a letter so secretive that he tried to shield the contents by blocking the view with his body as Ruth walked past. 

So what does Oswald do with this super duper top secret letter? He leaves it out when he's not in the house for anyone to read (and copy.)

At this point I want to ask the Ruth Paine defenders: how dumb do you think we are?

What do you expect her to do about it? Call the police? Rip it up in dramatic fashion while Oswald watches?

[Greg Doudna]

Comment on Ruth and the Soviet embassy letter

I don't see any obvious incrimination of Ruth in that. As the story stands (Ruth's explanation, which is the only source there is) Oswald wrote the letter, leaves it out as if intentionally for her to see. She sees it, wonders if Lee could be a spy (Ruth spoke of her question of whether Lee could be a spy). Although Ruth said she never met an FBI person prior to the Nov 1 Hosty visit to her home, Ruth wants to cooperate with the FBI (she liked her meeting with Hosty, liked Hosty, per her account). Another thing which has received little attention, but it would not surprise me if Michael was in contact with the FBI prior to Nov 1, to give them heads-up on Marina living in his wife's and his home in Irving. I am not aware that Michael ever was asked directly whether he had contacts with the FBI. 

Looking at what is fact, it is fact that Lee wrote the draft of the Soviet embassy letter because there is non-controverted expert testimony that that is his handwriting. So there is that fact, plus Ruth's testimony, as the only two sources on what happened. (Possibly there is a slight bit of testimony from Michael basically backing up Ruth. But Lee was dead and Marina I don't think had anything to offer on it.)

As the story stands Lee looks for all the world like he was leaving the note out for Ruth to find or see. This would be consistent with Lee working as an operative, with intent that Ruth see it and report it. Ruth being a good citizen type would be expected to report to police or in this case FBI this suspicious letter.

The implication would be that Lee had some other handler, not Ruth, unknown identity of Lee's contacts. The alternative that Ruth was that handler makes little sense to me. Or that Michael was that handler, I just don't see that either. (Michael possibly could have informed to FBI on Lee, unknown, but that is not a handler of Lee.) And as to which agency Lee was working for, Lee's agent provocateur-like activities going back through from New Orleans and Mexico City just do not seem like normal FBI agency activity which seems to have been basically only informant information collecting. Lee's Soviet embassy letter looks instead to be in continuity or continuation from Lee in Mexico City and New Orleans with all of the issues in those things of agent provocateur activity, perhaps CIA or CIA related. Rather than visions of Lee going out to Irving on weekends to get his CIA instructions for the next week in front of his wife and kids from Ruth in her tiny living room, think rather of Lee meeting someone covertly in downtown Dallas during lunch or work hours at TSBD. (Recall Buell Wesley Frazier: nobody paid much attention or knew where Lee went for lunch usually. He did not eat lunch with fellow employees as a rule from any known fellow employee testimony.)

The Soviet embassy letter fits so well as in continuity with the Mexico City contact with the Soviet embassy there and the fortuitous discovery that Lee's contact there was a KGB wet operations specialist, and this was used as part of implicating the USSR and Castro following the assassination. That is where my suspicion goes on this in seeing the Soviet embassy letter as more than meets the eye.

Now Ruth gets mixed up in this with CT's because they think she is "in on it" with Lee, or some think without any evidence whatever that she forged the whole letter herself and was trying to incriminate an unwitting Lee. Both of those scenarios--Ruth and Lee in collusion re that letter; Ruth framing an unwitting Lee via that letter--are as misguided as notions that Ruth and Linnie Mae Randle were part of a plot acting on instruction from "their handlers" to manipulate Lee into the TSBD and keep him there without Lee's knowledge etc. These ideas come from looking at circumstantial facts and reconstructing a storyline to account for them starting from suspicion of one of the persons involved, in a sort of circular reasoning.

According to Ruth's testimony Lee left his draft letter all day just lying out in the open on that desk secretary on Sun Nov 10. If that testimony is true, and I do not doubt that it is, that just looks intentional on Lee's part. Ruth reads it, makes the copy, with consideration of reporting it to the FBI, wonders if Lee could be some sort of spy (i.e. for the Soviets).  

It is a bit puzzling that Ruth does not call the FBI immediately, rather than wait and sit on it until giving the letter to the FBI following the assassination. The best interpretation of that might be that, as a first order of business, she did try to show the letter to and talk it over with Michael (Ruth tells of this) but Michael blew it off, told Ruth he didn't think it was important and besides it wasn't their business or concern (Ruth's testimony of how Michael didn't take it seriously). Could that have influenced Ruth to "sit on it" before turning it in to the FBI with all that could mean negatively for Lee? Recall that Ruth sympathized with Lee on Lee's complaint that FBI inquiries had harmed his job prospects. Ruth told of discussing with Hosty Nov 1 that issue and how reassured she was that Hosty told her how the FBI respected people's civil rights. Did Ruth have reluctance to immediately turn the Soviet embassy letter copy (that she had surreptitiously copied because she found it suspicious) over to the FBI for that reason? Because the letter is not obviously criminal or subversive--on its face it is Lee discussing his known efforts to get his visa--but still it was a little off-key and suspicious to Ruth. But was it suspicious enough to cause Lee to be investigated over it and possibly wreck his life and maybe Marina's too, if it wasn't clear anything was actually wrong--and Michael, to whom she had tried to talk about it, didn't think it was too important?

That is my best guess as to interpretation of Ruth's delay in turning the letter over. After the assassination Ruth quickly came to believe, largely because of Marina and the missing rifle thing, that Lee was guilty, and Ruth then would want to get that letter turned in right away which she did--to the FBI, not to the local police. That she kept it confidential between her and the FBI and not to the Dallas Police who had invaded her space without a warrant and whom she did not know whereas she had talked with and trusted Hosty, is not too surprising.

In other words, Ruth's testimony hangs together without obvious signal that something is other than it seems. Of course one can always imagine some dramatically different sinister scenario and then just say Ruth was lying. That is par for the course with some CT's with respect to Ruth. 

Did Ruth violate Lee's privacy by looking at a letter Lee left out for hours in broad view in her living room? Well yes I suppose so technically but all I can say is, people be real, of course a woman is going to look to see what it is, out in the open in her own living room. The question is not that, but why would Lee leave it out like that? 

The options if one thinks Ruth is covering up or lying would be that Lee and Ruth were somehow complicit in some operation involving both of them in collusion and Ruth withheld that in her testimony. An idea of some CT's that Lee was unwitting to anything in the Soviet embassy letter is a nonstarter based on the uncontroverted expert verification that Lee's handwriting was the handwriting that wrote the draft. So that part of the story is a fact or starting point. The only issue then is whether the rest of Ruth's story is basically true as it stands (I think so) or some sort of coverup of some very different truth (I doubt it, in terms of Ruth's knowledge--though I think Lee was working for an agency, with a contact other than Ruth).

Edited November 6, 2022 by Greg Doudna

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

Comment on Ruth and the Soviet embassy letter

I don't see any obvious incrimination of Ruth in that. As the story stands (Ruth's explanation, which is the only source there is) Oswald wrote the letter, leaves it out as if intentionally for her to see. She sees it, wonders if Lee could be a spy (Ruth spoke of her question of whether Lee could be a spy). Although Ruth said she never met an FBI person prior to the Nov 1 Hosty visit to her home, Ruth wants to cooperate with the FBI (she liked her meeting with Hosty, liked Hosty, per her account). Another thing which has received little attention, but it would not surprise me if Michael was in contact with the FBI prior to Nov 1, to give them heads-up on Marina living in his wife's and his home in Irving. I am not aware that Michael ever was asked directly whether he had contacts with the FBI. 

Looking at what is fact, it is fact that Lee wrote the draft of the Soviet embassy letter because there is non-controverted expert testimony that that is his handwriting. So there is that fact, plus Ruth's testimony, as the only two sources on what happened. (Possibly there is a slight bit of testimony from Michael basically backing up Ruth. But Lee was dead and Marina I don't think had anything to offer on it.)

As the story stands Lee looks for all the world like he was leaving the note out for Ruth to find or see. This would be consistent with Lee working as an operative, with intent that Ruth see it and report it. Ruth being a good citizen type would be expected to report to police or in this case FBI this suspicious letter.

The implication would be that Lee had some other handler, not Ruth, unknown identity of Lee's contacts. The alternative that Ruth was that handler makes little sense to me. Or that Michael was that handler, I just don't see that either. (Michael possibly could have informed to FBI on Lee, unknown, but that is not a handler of Lee.) And as to which agency Lee was working for, Lee's agent provocateur-like activities going back through from New Orleans and Mexico City just do not seem like normal FBI agency activity which seems to have been basically only informant information collecting. Lee's Soviet embassy letter looks instead to be in continuity or continuation from Lee in Mexico City and New Orleans with all of the issues in those things of agent provocateur activity, perhaps CIA or CIA related. Rather than visions of Lee going out to Irving on weekends to get his CIA instructions for the next week in front of his wife and kids from Ruth in her tiny living room, think rather of Lee meeting someone covertly in downtown Dallas during lunch or work hours at TSBD. (Recall Buell Wesley Frazier: nobody paid much attention or knew where Lee went for lunch usually. He did not eat lunch with fellow employees as a rule from any known fellow employee testimony.)

The Soviet embassy letter fits so well as in continuity with the Mexico City contact with the Soviet embassy there and the fortuitous discovery that Lee's contact there was a KGB wet operations specialist, and this was used as part of implicating the USSR and Castro following the assassination. That is where my suspicion goes on this in seeing the Soviet embassy letter as more than meets the eye.

Now Ruth gets mixed up in this with CT's because they think she is "in on it" with Lee, or some think without any evidence whatever that she forged the whole letter herself and was trying to incriminate an unwitting Lee. Both of those scenarios--Ruth and Lee in collusion re that letter; Ruth framing an unwitting Lee via that letter--are as misguided as notions that Ruth and Linnie Mae Randle were part of a plot acting on instruction from "their handlers" to manipulate Lee into the TSBD and keep him there without Lee's knowledge etc. These ideas come from looking at circumstantial facts and reconstructing a storyline to account for them starting from suspicion of one of the persons involved, in a sort of circular reasoning.

According to Ruth's testimony Lee left his draft letter all day just lying out in the open on that desk secretary on Sun Nov 10. If that testimony is true, and I do not doubt that it is, that just looks intentional on Lee's part. Ruth reads it, makes the copy, with consideration of reporting it to the FBI, wonders if Lee could be some sort of spy (i.e. for the Soviets).  

It is a bit puzzling that Ruth does not call the FBI immediately, rather than wait and sit on it until giving the letter to the FBI following the assassination. The best interpretation of that might be that, as a first order of business, she did try to show the letter to and talk it over with Michael (Ruth tells of this) but Michael blew it off, told Ruth he didn't think it was important and besides it wasn't their business or concern (Ruth's testimony of how Michael didn't take it seriously). Could that have influenced Ruth to "sit on it" before turning it in to the FBI with all that could mean negatively for Lee? Recall that Ruth sympathized with Lee on Lee's complaint that FBI inquiries had harmed his job prospects. Ruth told of discussing with Hosty Nov 1 that issue and how reassured she was that Hosty told her how the FBI respected people's civil rights. Did Ruth have reluctance to immediately turn the Soviet embassy letter copy (that she had surreptitiously copied because she found it suspicious) over to the FBI for that reason? Because the letter is not obviously criminal or subversive--on its face it is Lee discussing his known efforts to get his visa--but still it was a little off-key and suspicious to Ruth. But was it suspicious enough to cause Lee to be investigated over it and possibly wreck his life and maybe Marina's too, if it wasn't clear anything was actually wrong--and Michael, to whom she had tried to talk about it, didn't think it was too important?

That is my best guess as to interpretation of Ruth's delay in turning the letter over. After the assassination Ruth quickly came to believe, largely because of Marina and the missing rifle thing, that Lee was guilty, and Ruth then would want to get that letter turned in right away which she did--to the FBI, not to the local police. That she kept it confidential between her and the FBI and not to the Dallas Police who had invaded her space without a warrant and whom she did not know whereas she had talked with and trusted Hosty, is not too surprising.

In other words, Ruth's testimony hangs together without obvious signal that something is other than it seems. Of course one can always imagine some dramatically different sinister scenario and then just say Ruth was lying. That is par for the course with some CT's with respect to Ruth. 

Did Ruth violate Lee's privacy by looking at a letter Lee left out for hours in broad view in her living room? Well yes I suppose so technically but all I can say is, people be real, of course a woman is going to look to see what it is, out in the open in her own living room. The question is not that, but why would Lee leave it out like that? 

The options if one thinks Ruth is covering up or lying would be that Lee and Ruth were somehow complicit in some operation involving both of them in collusion and Ruth withheld that in her testimony. An idea of some CT's that Lee was unwitting to anything in the Soviet embassy letter is a nonstarter based on the uncontroverted expert verification that Lee's handwriting was the handwriting that wrote the draft. So that part of the story is a fact or starting point. The only issue then is whether the rest of Ruth's story is basically true as it stands (I think so) or some sort of coverup of some very different truth (I doubt it, in terms of Ruth's knowledge--though I think Lee was working for an agency, with a contact other than Ruth).

Greg, thank you for your reply.  The delay in passing the letter to the FBI is indeed part of what kept me busy.  It's like : Ruth makes a copy and next... does nothing with it...  Unless it was like an insurance to her, "just in case", no idea.       

Of course there are other opinions on the whole matter, everyone is entitled to make up their own mind. I never had any problems with that, as long as they are respectful that is.

Different opinions is what makes this case interesting to me.  

[Matt Allison]

The problem is, once you remove the nonsense about Ruth Paine purposely installing LHO at the TSBD, there's nothing left that she does that directly incriminates Oswald in the shooting, as people forget it was Marina, not Ruth, that revealed there was supposedly a rifle in the garage.

The extent to which people have been led down the blind alley of "Ruth Paine: Conspirator" is epic. But false leads are an integral part of any op.

[James DiEugenio]

14 hours ago, Cory Santos said:

Do you think Oswald had anything to do with Powers being shot down?

I am not sure about that one Cory.  There are probably three different and mutually exclusive solutions to that one, the Powers shoot down, and I am not sure which one I am part of.

[James DiEugenio]

19 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

The problem is, once you remove the nonsense about Ruth Paine purposely installing LHO at the TSBD, there's nothing left that she does that directly incriminates Oswald in the shooting, as people forget it was Marina, not Ruth, that revealed there was supposedly a rifle in the garage.

The extent to which people have been led down the blind alley of "Ruth Paine: Conspirator" is epic. But false leads are an integral part of any op.

Matt, this is nonsense.  And i think it comes from the attempts by people like Kirk and Jonathan to polarize the issue.

Are you aware of the whole Hootkins affair, which happened before the assassination?

Are you aware of the whole Paine/Odum Minox camera charade, which was done at Hoover's request to disguise the fact that Oswald had a Minox?

And please do not tell me you have no questions at all about poor Ruth's Stanislavski style perofrmance about Oswald actually using her typewriter to type a letter.  And her three different stories about how she noticed what was in the letter? 

Let us try and be a bit objective and open.