Shaw and Ferrie

[John Kowalski]

The Louisiana state police prepared a 41 page report on Shaw and Ferrie. Does anyone know where this report can be accessed?

[James DiEugenio]

John, I have heard of this before.  And I think Garrison's office knew about it.

But I have never seen it. I don't wish to speculate on what happened to it.

[John Kowalski]

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

John, I have heard of this before.  And I think Garrison's office knew about it.

Jim: Been reading the Garrison papers and that is where I found the reference to this report.

[James DiEugenio]

Yes I thought so.

Len has been moving a few of this due to the work of Paul Bleau.

Glad you have a set.

[Cory Santos]

Agree.  Rumored but I have never seen anything.   

[Karl Kinaski]

Ferrie and Shaw. A nice couple. My favourite story about the two is this. (Source Garrrison ON THE TRAIL OF THE ASSASSINS ...)

quote:

... in September 1967, a man who had spent a number of evenings being courted
for his services by Shaw and Ferrie found his way to my office (Garrison's) and gave an
extensive statement about the pair’s activities to Jim Alcock.

Edward Whalen, from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, was a professional
criminal. He had spent most of his adult life in the penitentiary. A friend he
would not name got Ferrie on the phone with Whalen in early 1967 in
Columbus, Ohio, where Whalen was at least temporarily “at liberty.” Ferrie
asked Whalen to join him in New Orleans. Whalen learned that big money
was to be made by hitting the Jung Hotel and the small jewelry store at the
intersection of Baronne and Gravier streets.
Whalen, having recently stolen a new car in Columbus, drove down to
New Orleans. He abandoned his recent acquisition on some side street and
met Ferrie at the Absinthe House on Bourbon Street. Ferrie, who was
wearing his usual eye-catching second-hand threads, appeared intoxicated
to Whalen. Whalen pulled up a chair and joined him at the table.
Ferrie began the meeting with a discussion of his flying ability. Not a
sentimental man, Whalen cut Ferrie short and said that he needed money
because he was on the run from the police. Ferrie assured him that he could
earn a large sum of money and, if need be, he himself would fly Whalen out
of the country. In this first conversation, which lasted about half an hour,
Ferrie did not tell Whalen the details of his plan.

After this meeting, Whalen spent the night at an apartment provided by
Ferrie. Ferrie also provided Whalen with a black Ford, a little the worse for
wear, for his use while he was in town. It was agreed that the next night
Whalen was to meet Ferrie and someone else at the Absinthe House.
Whalen arrived at the Absinthe House first. Shortly thereafter, Ferrie
arrived with another man, who was introduced as Clay Bertrand. Ferrie did most of the talking, while Whalen, sizing him up, remained silent.

From time to time Ferrie referred to the other man, who from the description was
obviously Clay Shaw, as Clay Bertrand. Shaw became nettled but said
nothing directly to Ferrie.
Upon leaving the Absinthe House, the three of them drove to Ferrie’s
apartment on Louisiana Avenue Parkway, which Whalen accurately
described down to the shabby furniture.
There Ferrie finally got around to the point. He and Shaw wanted
someone killed. Shaw was going to advance $10,000 to Whalen before the
job. After it was completed, Whalen would receive another $15,000, Shaw
would provide him with a phony passport, and Ferrie would fly him to
Mexico. Shaw said the intended victim was going to be a witness against
him for something that had been done in the past and that if this man was
not stopped, Shaw would end up in the penitentiary for a long time. The
victim’s name was not mentioned at this time. Whalen was wary of the deal,
but he pretended to string along. Before he left, Shaw gave him $300
spending money. Whalen spent that night at a motel on Tulane Avenue. He
did not use his real name on the register but could not remember the one he
used.

The next day Ferrie met Whalen at Moran’s restaurant. After breakfast
Ferrie suggested they take a ride. While they were in the car, Ferrie asked
him if he had ever heard of Jim Garrison. Whalen said he had not. Ferrie
then told Whalen that Garrison was the district attorney and that this was
the man they wanted killed. Now Whalen finally told Ferrie he wanted
nothing to do with the deal. Ferrie attempted to talk him into going through
with the plan, but Whalen refused. They parted with the agreement to meet
the next night at the Absinthe House. Whalen spent that night at a motel on
Airline Highway. He did not remember the name of the motel or the name
under which he had registered.
Whalen and Ferrie met at the Absinthe House the next night as planned.
From there, they went directly to Shaw’s apartment on Dauphine Street.
Whalen recalled that the apartment was on the first floor and that the
interior was extremely lavish.

At first only Shaw, Ferrie, and Whalen were in the apartment, and Shaw
and Ferrie were trying to persuade Whalen to go through with the plan.
After about a half hour, a short fat man wearing dark glasses wandered in.
Shaw introduced him as Dean Andrews. Andrews and Shaw conversed for a while away from Ferrie and Whalen, and shortly thereafter Andrews left the apartment.
Shaw then turned to Whalen and continued to try to persuade him. Shaw
said he had done some checking on Whalen and he knew that Whalen’s
daughter suffered from polio. Shaw said that if Whalen would go through
with the plan, he would get Whalen’s daughter the finest medical treatment
money could buy and also see to it that she was sent to college. However,
Whalen insisted that he would not kill a district attorney, and he and Ferrie
left.

Once outside, Ferrie told Whalen he was making a mistake; Clay
Bertrand, he said, could do a lot for him. Also, Ferrie spoke of Lee Oswald
for the first time. He said that Bertrand had done a lot for Oswald and that it
was only because Oswald had fouled up that he was killed. Oswald was an
agent of the Central Intelligence Agency, Ferrie claimed, and had received
money from him and Shaw at one time. Ferrie also said that they had been
given “inside” information from Dean Andrews that Jim Garrison was
about to start an investigation into the assassination of President Kennedy.
Ferrie boasted that he had set up the assassination of Kennedy and
mentioned the names of other important people he claimed to know.
Whalen said he did not believe these statements, which he regarded as
name-dropping in an attempt to get him to change his mind. Whalen
insisted he wanted nothing to do with the plan, and he left.
Except for a tendency to be vague about dates and times, Edward
Whalen, in my judgment, had given a very accurate statement to Jim
Alcock. Particularly persuasive to me was Whalen’s knowledge that Dean
Andrews had tipped off Shaw and Ferrie about my impending investigation.

At the time of Whalen’s meetings with Shaw and Ferrie, the only person
outside of my immediate staff whom I had told about the investigation was
none other than Dean Andrews at our memorable lunch.

I was surprised to learn that I had become a target for removal. "

Close quote

 

[John Kowalski]

4 hours ago, Karl Kinaski said:

Ferrie and Shaw. A nice couple. My favourite story about the two is this. (Source Garrrison ON THE TRAIL OF THE ASSASSINS ...)

An interesting story, read this one in the Garrison papers.

[Andrej Stancak]

4 hours ago, Karl Kinaski said:

Also, Ferrie spoke of Lee Oswald
for the first time. He said that Bertrand had done a lot for Oswald and that it
was only because Oswald had fouled up that he was killed. Oswald was an
agent of the Central Intelligence Agency, Ferrie claimed, and had received
money from him and Shaw at one time.

It would be very useful to know in what way did Lee Oswald go wrong. I read about Oswald going wrong in the plot couple times before. Anyway, this story suggests that Lee Oswald could have some foreknowledge or maybe even play a part in JFK's assassination. 

[David Andrews]

8 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

It would be very useful to know in what way did Lee Oswald go wrong. I read about Oswald going wrong in the plot couple times before. Anyway, this story suggests that Lee Oswald could have some foreknowledge or maybe even play a part in JFK's assassination. 

Or Ferrie could have lied about Oswald, since no one would want to jump into Oswald's role.

[John Kowalski]

Post deleted.

Edited November 5, 2022 by John Kowalski

[Karl Kinaski]

@Andrej Stancak: I always thought that Ferrie knew that his friend Oswald did't shot Kennedy, but blew his cover by killing Tippit ( in affect)... IMO that's the meaning of Ferries words: " ... and that it was only because Oswald had fouled up that he was killed."

About Oswalds foreknowledge:

According to Tosh Plumlee and Judyth Baker there not only were kill-teams in Dallas but abort teams too ... groups with the mandate to prevent the kill-teams to became operational ... IMO Oswald was infliltrating both sides ... according to Judyth Baker Oswald was part of an abort team and intended to sabotage his part in the plot if used by a kill-team ...

 

KK

 

Edited November 5, 2022 by Karl Kinaski

[Joe Bauer]

 

 

 

 

 

4:18NOW PLAYING

 

 

New Orleans Businessman Clay Shaw interview 1967

Shaw lies his head off in this "interview?"

When asked if he "ever" had any association with you know who Shaw says... "none whatsoever." 

Shaw says he was a "Wilsonian/FDR liberal?"

So, his interactions with fascist Centro Mondiale Commerciale were just some little side dealings to get leads on some exquisite Italian antique furnishings for his New Orleans digs?

Notice the above interview was the opposite of a non-biased, objective, spontaneous open question one.

This was a scripted affair with Shaw giving a practiced theatrical performance self-defense spiel/speech flourished with a dramatic twist ending quote "all men's rights are diminished, when any man's rights are threatened"  to which the interviewer then conveniently asks...and who's quote is that?

Setting up Shaw to say ... "John F. Kennedy."

A second or so later director Shaw waves his hands out and says "cut!"

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Michael Griffith]

20 hours ago, David Andrews said:

Or Ferrie could have lied about Oswald, since no one would want to jump into Oswald's role.

The bigger point is that Oswald's extensive association with Ferrie, Shaw, and Banister refutes the simplistic lone-gunman picture of him as a Marxist loner with no intelligence connections.

[David Andrews]

2 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

The bigger point is that Oswald's extensive association with Ferrie, Shaw, and Banister refutes the simplistic lone-gunman picture of him as a Marxist loner with no intelligence connections.

And Ferrie might have hoped to impress Whalen with knowledge uncommon to the period.

Edited November 6, 2022 by David Andrews

[Benjamin Cole]

On 11/5/2022 at 3:55 PM, Karl Kinaski said:

Ferrie and Shaw. A nice couple. My favourite story about the two is this. (Source Garrrison ON THE TRAIL OF THE ASSASSINS ...)

quote:

... in September 1967, a man who had spent a number of evenings being courted
for his services by Shaw and Ferrie found his way to my office (Garrison's) and gave an
extensive statement about the pair’s activities to Jim Alcock.

Edward Whalen, from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, was a professional
criminal. He had spent most of his adult life in the penitentiary. A friend he
would not name got Ferrie on the phone with Whalen in early 1967 in
Columbus, Ohio, where Whalen was at least temporarily “at liberty.” Ferrie
asked Whalen to join him in New Orleans. Whalen learned that big money
was to be made by hitting the Jung Hotel and the small jewelry store at the
intersection of Baronne and Gravier streets.
Whalen, having recently stolen a new car in Columbus, drove down to
New Orleans. He abandoned his recent acquisition on some side street and
met Ferrie at the Absinthe House on Bourbon Street. Ferrie, who was
wearing his usual eye-catching second-hand threads, appeared intoxicated
to Whalen. Whalen pulled up a chair and joined him at the table.
Ferrie began the meeting with a discussion of his flying ability. Not a
sentimental man, Whalen cut Ferrie short and said that he needed money
because he was on the run from the police. Ferrie assured him that he could
earn a large sum of money and, if need be, he himself would fly Whalen out
of the country. In this first conversation, which lasted about half an hour,
Ferrie did not tell Whalen the details of his plan.

After this meeting, Whalen spent the night at an apartment provided by
Ferrie. Ferrie also provided Whalen with a black Ford, a little the worse for
wear, for his use while he was in town. It was agreed that the next night
Whalen was to meet Ferrie and someone else at the Absinthe House.
Whalen arrived at the Absinthe House first. Shortly thereafter, Ferrie
arrived with another man, who was introduced as Clay Bertrand. Ferrie did most of the talking, while Whalen, sizing him up, remained silent.

From time to time Ferrie referred to the other man, who from the description was
obviously Clay Shaw, as Clay Bertrand. Shaw became nettled but said
nothing directly to Ferrie.
Upon leaving the Absinthe House, the three of them drove to Ferrie’s
apartment on Louisiana Avenue Parkway, which Whalen accurately
described down to the shabby furniture.
There Ferrie finally got around to the point. He and Shaw wanted
someone killed. Shaw was going to advance $10,000 to Whalen before the
job. After it was completed, Whalen would receive another $15,000, Shaw
would provide him with a phony passport, and Ferrie would fly him to
Mexico. Shaw said the intended victim was going to be a witness against
him for something that had been done in the past and that if this man was
not stopped, Shaw would end up in the penitentiary for a long time. The
victim’s name was not mentioned at this time. Whalen was wary of the deal,
but he pretended to string along. Before he left, Shaw gave him $300
spending money. Whalen spent that night at a motel on Tulane Avenue. He
did not use his real name on the register but could not remember the one he
used.

The next day Ferrie met Whalen at Moran’s restaurant. After breakfast
Ferrie suggested they take a ride. While they were in the car, Ferrie asked
him if he had ever heard of Jim Garrison. Whalen said he had not. Ferrie
then told Whalen that Garrison was the district attorney and that this was
the man they wanted killed. Now Whalen finally told Ferrie he wanted
nothing to do with the deal. Ferrie attempted to talk him into going through
with the plan, but Whalen refused. They parted with the agreement to meet
the next night at the Absinthe House. Whalen spent that night at a motel on
Airline Highway. He did not remember the name of the motel or the name
under which he had registered.
Whalen and Ferrie met at the Absinthe House the next night as planned.
From there, they went directly to Shaw’s apartment on Dauphine Street.
Whalen recalled that the apartment was on the first floor and that the
interior was extremely lavish.

At first only Shaw, Ferrie, and Whalen were in the apartment, and Shaw
and Ferrie were trying to persuade Whalen to go through with the plan.
After about a half hour, a short fat man wearing dark glasses wandered in.
Shaw introduced him as Dean Andrews. Andrews and Shaw conversed for a while away from Ferrie and Whalen, and shortly thereafter Andrews left the apartment.
Shaw then turned to Whalen and continued to try to persuade him. Shaw
said he had done some checking on Whalen and he knew that Whalen’s
daughter suffered from polio. Shaw said that if Whalen would go through
with the plan, he would get Whalen’s daughter the finest medical treatment
money could buy and also see to it that she was sent to college. However,
Whalen insisted that he would not kill a district attorney, and he and Ferrie
left.

Once outside, Ferrie told Whalen he was making a mistake; Clay
Bertrand, he said, could do a lot for him. Also, Ferrie spoke of Lee Oswald
for the first time. He said that Bertrand had done a lot for Oswald and that it
was only because Oswald had fouled up that he was killed. Oswald was an
agent of the Central Intelligence Agency, Ferrie claimed, and had received
money from him and Shaw at one time. Ferrie also said that they had been
given “inside” information from Dean Andrews that Jim Garrison was
about to start an investigation into the assassination of President Kennedy.
Ferrie boasted that he had set up the assassination of Kennedy and
mentioned the names of other important people he claimed to know.
Whalen said he did not believe these statements, which he regarded as
name-dropping in an attempt to get him to change his mind. Whalen
insisted he wanted nothing to do with the plan, and he left.
Except for a tendency to be vague about dates and times, Edward
Whalen, in my judgment, had given a very accurate statement to Jim
Alcock. Particularly persuasive to me was Whalen’s knowledge that Dean
Andrews had tipped off Shaw and Ferrie about my impending investigation.

At the time of Whalen’s meetings with Shaw and Ferrie, the only person
outside of my immediate staff whom I had told about the investigation was
none other than Dean Andrews at our memorable lunch.

I was surprised to learn that I had become a target for removal. "

Close quote

 

The actual memo from Alcock here:

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/whalen.htm

"Since March, 1965, he (Whalen) has twice been declared incompetent to stand trial in the Federal Courts by members of the staff at the United States Medical Center for federal prisoners at Springfield, Missouri. Whalen also stated that he had received some psychiatric treatment at the state penitentiary in Pennsylvania. He is presently awaiting a compentency hearing on a federal charge of assaulting a United States Marshal and escape."

This does not discredit the story, but does add some background. It could well be Ferrie and Shaw were trying to take advantage of a troubled individual. Evidently Whalen thought that Senator John Tower was out to get him, and his prison food was being poisoned. 

But maybe Whalen was a JFKA buff and a little nuts. I am sympathetic, in the latter case.