David Lifton's latter-day claims

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

Yeah, that's another one of the too-numerous-to-count crackpot theories proposed by Mr. Lifton in his 2013 video interview series.

Lifton wants us to take seriously the idea that SS agent Paul Landis ran from the SS follow-up car and took the place of Bill Greer as the driver of the SS-100-X limousine immediately after JFK was shot, and that it was Landis (and not Greer) who actually drove the limo most of the way from Dealey Plaza to Parkland Hospital.

The question would then be: Why in heaven's name would there be a need to change limo drivers, especially at that critical point in time when every second counts in trying to get the wounded President to a hospital in an attempt to save his life? It makes no sense at all.

Another of Lifton's dozens of unprovable make-believe cloak-and-dagger episodes is the one about how the wounded JFK was supposed to be transferred to an ambulance at the Trade Mart. Lifton says this transfer to the ambulance was going to be done in order to get JFK's body away from Jackie and other members of the Kennedy party. But this "ambulance" part of the plot didn't go off as planned (although I don't think Lifton, in his 2013 video interview, ever explains why it didn't).

Also: Lifton thinks Connally was shot THREE separate times (by Agent Ready, of course).

And: At the very beginning of Part 4 of Lifton's 14-part interview (see my full playlist below), we hear the interviewer say: "So the original plan was not to have the driver shoot the President...", which (I guess) means that Lifton turned into a "Greer Shot Kennedy" CTer. It sure sounds that way to me, based on the interviewer's remark at the start of Part 4.

 

My understanding is that David suspected he driver of the limo shot JFK, and that Connally shot the driver, and that Ready raced up to the limo, leading Connally to think they were gonna kill him too... Thus, the fight between Ready and Connally.

The evidence for any of this is, of course, mighty thin. But it would explain an early article describing a fight in the limo. And would explain the rumors of a dead SS agent. And it would explain Connnally's back wound. 

As stated, David was a creative thinker, constantly trying to solve problems. The problem, of course, is that many of his proposed solutions were far more problematic than the problems he sought to solve.  

It is my hope that David's book on Oswald survives in some form, and will be released. There might very well be some important and interesting material there. As far as his theories on the shooting, I hope an outline will surface explaining his final thoughts, so that people like me who heard bits and pieces won't have to try to remember what he said, or piece together bits from his interviews.

I mean, it's better if this stuff comes from him, and not from what I and others remember him saying. 

 

[David Von Pein]

BTW / FWIW:

The Wikipedia Watch:

As of now (2:00 AM EST on Dec. 11), five days after Steven Kossor announced David Lifton's death at this forum, DSL's Wiki page is still saying that David is still with us.

Obviously, the people at Wikipedia who have to "confirm" everything that is added to every Wiki page, cannot confirm Mr. Lifton's passing beyond just the word of Steven Kossor (who is the one who edited DSL's Wiki page on Dec. 8, only to have Wiki override Kossor's death notice just one day later, on December 9).

I wonder why Wiki can't confirm (in a period of three days now) Kossor's changes to DSL's Wiki page? Seems very odd to me.

Question for Steven Kossor:

Have you tried to re-edit David's Wiki page a second time yet, to add back in the things you already added on Dec. 8th? And have you had any contact with the Wiki people who decided to override your original edits one day after you created them?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Lifton

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Vince Palamara]

13 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

BTW / FWIW:

The Wikipedia Watch:

As of now (2:00 AM EST on Dec. 11), five days after Steven Kossor announced David Lifton's death at this forum, DSL's Wiki page is still saying that David is still with us.

Obviously, the people at Wikipedia who have to "confirm" everything that is added to every Wiki page, cannot confirm Mr. Lifton's passing beyond just the word of Steven Kossor (who is the one who edited DSL's Wiki page on Dec. 8, only to have Wiki override Kossor's death notice just one day later, on December 9.

I wonder why Wiki can't confirm (in a period of three days now) Kossor's changes to DSL's Wiki page? Seems very odd to me.

Question for Steven Kossor:

Have you tried to re-edit David's Wiki page a second time yet, to add back in the things you already added on Dec. 8th? And have you had any contact with the Wiki people who decided to override your original edits one day after you created them?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Lifton

 

This makes me paranoid that David is still alive (!). It is strange that there is no obituary anywhere to be found. Anyone noteworthy enough to have his own Wikipedia-and a massive best-selling book that was published/printed many times-would receive an obituary and probably one that was serialized in major newspapers online. Lifton was a consultant to Executive Action and Stone's JFK, as well as appearing on many television programs.

[David Von Pein]

37 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

My understanding is that David suspected [the] driver of the limo shot JFK, and that Connally shot the driver, and that Ready raced up to the limo, leading Connally to think they were gonna kill him too... Thus, the fight between Ready and Connally.

The evidence for any of this is, of course, mighty thin. But it would explain an early article describing a fight in the limo. And would explain the rumors of a dead SS agent. And it would explain Connally's back wound. 

Oh my! This just keeps getting better and better (i.e., goofier & goofier).

So does that mean that GREER is the dead SS agent? (Because, Pat, you now know that Lifton DID believe a SS agent WAS killed, and his body was secretly stashed on AF1 and disguised as "Lyndon's Luggage".)

But if Greer was shot dead by John Connally, I wonder who it was who gave this testimony in front of the Warren Commission?

But I guess that wasn't a problem for a creative thinker like David Lifton. He probably thinks "the plot" provided for such a contingency, and a "Greer Double" popped up out of the woodwork to testify instead of the real Bill Greer.

Or does Lifton think it was Paul Landis who was killed in the limo? Or maybe John Ready? Or perhaps Roy Kellerman? Any idea, Pat?

If we get any more people crowding into that limo, we're going to need a shoehorn to wedge them all in.

Oh, BTW, Pat, did Lifton ever tell you if Connally supposedly shot William Greer with the gun that some CTers have told me Connally would sometimes carry in an ankle holster?

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Guest]

I believe you need like a published source (or alike) or Wiki won't accept.

One just has to wait for the family to make make some kind of public statement.  IF they do so of course.  At the moment I can imagine this is not their primary concern.   If they do not, I have seen cities making monthly announcements, those can be used as well. 

But un updated Wiki page is not the most urgent concern

 

 

 

 

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

I believe you need like a published source (or alike) or Wiki won't accept.

Oh yes. I know (and realize) that fact.

And in a way, that makes this situation even more bizarre. Because after Kossor's edits to DSL's Wiki page on Dec. 8th, it probably means that somebody at Wikipedia was searching (somewhere) for a "published source" in order to confirm Kossor's edits. And they still haven't found one---after several days. Very odd, IMO.

And evidently nobody else in the world (whether it be Wikipedia employees or otherwise) has attempted to update DSL's Wiki page either (since Steve Kossor did it on Dec. 8). And that's quite odd too (IMO).

A further note on this (just "for the record")....

Even when Mr. Lifton's death is confirmed by Wikipedia (and I think it will be), I still think this multi-day delay in finding any kind of "published source" to confirm David's demise is mighty strange.

For gosh sakes, if a third-string catcher who played only one game for the Pittsburgh Pirates in 1965 passes away, Wikipedia has that guy's page updated within 24 hours. (And, yes, even that guy would have a Wiki page; every player who's ever played even one game in the Major Leagues has his own Wiki page.)

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

Oh my! This just keeps getting better and better (i.e., goofier & goofier).

So does that mean that GREER is the dead SS agent? (Because, Pat, you now know that Lifton DID believe a SS agent WAS killed, and his body was secretly stashed on AF1 and disguised as "Lyndon's Luggage".)

But if Greer was shot dead by John Connally, I wonder who it was who gave this testimony in front of the Warren Commission?

But I guess that wasn't a problem for a creative thinker like David Lifton. He probably thinks "the plot" provided for such a contingency, and a "Greer Double" popped up out of the woodwork to testify instead of the real Bill Greer.

Or does Lifton think it was Paul Landis who was killed in the limo? Or maybe John Ready? Or perhaps Roy Kellerman? Any idea, Pat?

If we get any more people crowding into that limo, we're going to need a shoehorn to wedge them all in.

Oh, BTW, Pat, did Lifton ever tell you if Connally supposedly shot William Greer with the gun that some CTers have told me Connally would sometimes carry in an ankle holster?

 

Like I said, I hope there is something to clear up a lot of the questions. What I have related in this thread is based partly on what he told me and partly on what he told others. I wasn't gonna say anything, at least not for awhile, but it turned out he mentioned most of this stuff in his interviews, which were put online before his passing. So it was gonna come up anyhow. 

As far as Greer, my understanding is that Lifton suspected Greer was not the driver. Now I don't recall who he thought was actually driving. And I don't recall how he explained Greer's face in the Towner photo, etc. 

It's just a shame that David is gone. For a number of reasons--one of which is that he won't get to explain why he'd come to such surprising conclusions. 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Pat Speer

[David Von Pein]

7 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

As far as Greer, my understanding is that Lifton suspected Greer was not the driver. Now I don't recall who he thought was actually driving. And I don't recall how he explained Greer's face in the Towner photo, etc. 

OK. Thanks, Pat.

I'm pretty sure Lifton mentions something about Paul Landis driving the limo at some point on 11/22.

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Pat Speer]

2 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

OK. Thanks, Pat.

I'm pretty sure Lifton mentions something about Paul Landis driving the limo at some point on 11/22.

 

I think he said Landis and Ready ran forward, Ready fought with Connally, and Landis pushed the dead driver aside and hopped in to drive the limo. I don't remember how Greer fits into the puzzle. But I wish David was here to tell us. 

[James DiEugenio]

I think maybe this is unfair.

I think DSL should be judged by what is in his manuscript.  SInce that will be annotated.

Not what he said in so many interviews. Where he may have just been trying to jab up interest for his book.  

Recall, he went to Go Fund Me to finish it, so he was obviously having some problems either getting an advance or finding the proper publisher.

[Denny Zartman]

I agree with @James DiEugenio. This thread is interesting reading, but it seems to be mostly speculation at this point.

[Adam Johnson]

I'm kind of disgusted by many of the responses here by long term members of this forum. This series of videos where made in 2013 and David explains this is where some of his research is taking him...things he hypothesises may mave happened or he believes could have happened. 

This is not his book "Final Charade"....the man was one of the best researchers into the assassination.  He met and interviewed dozens of people face to face, by telephone,  got their permission to record them and film their recollections and testimony.  Numerous times throughout the conversations he states " i have this all on tape" when referring to people's comments/recollections/statements.....the statements that lead him to his possible conclusions. 

We as an outside group are privvy to none of these records he made, yet....DSL was meticulous in covering his ass and backing up his conclusions on verifiable facts told to him by people who were actually there on Nov 22nd and the days, months and years that followed.

Who have you interviewed face to face DVP?

Yes some of the hypothesis DSL espouses in his interview are out there, but we haven't learned what he was told or found out during his research, the documents and recorded interviews he has to back up his hunches or belief's.

The man has taken another almost 10 years since this interview to confirm the ideas he had in 2013......and had NOT published a book saying what he talks about in the 2013 interview is 100% fact.....

Did i say earlier that DVP your a terrible human being in my opinion. Am i allowed to post my opinions here.

I really am incredibly disappointed in some people's replies over the past few days. This is not the community i joined long ago.

A.J

[David Andrews]

8 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

And: At the very beginning of Part 4 of Lifton's 14-part interview (see my full playlist below), we hear the interviewer say: "So the original plan was not to have the driver shoot the President...", which (I guess) means that Lifton turned into a "Greer Shot Kennedy" CTer. It sure sounds that way to me, based on the interviewer's remark at the start of Part 4.

 

Ah, no.  The remarks seem to take place in the context of dismissing the Greer-shot-JFK trope.  Lifton clearly describes his concept of the original plan.  Too much tar on the brush here.

 

[David Andrews]

1 hour ago, Adam Johnson said:

I'm kind of disgusted by many of the responses here by long term members of this forum. This series of videos where made in 2013 and David explains this is where some of his research is taking him...things he hypothesises may mave happened or he believes could have happened. 

This is not his book "Final Charade"....

 

Ah, well...we've all had long acquaintance with Lifton, whether we've met him or not.  He seems to have been the type of writer who throws out unsupported hypotheses, then walks them back or discards them when they prove obviously unsustainable in print.  If you don't publish, then you're judged by these wishful attempts at retaining currency.

The old Yiddish proverb, Never show half-work to fools, applies.  For myself, I've shortened it to Never show half-work, ever, which can also leave you, like DSL, with nothing to stand on should circumstances intervene.

Lifton seems to have fixated on reverse-engineering the JFKA events in order to discover how the plot and its execution worked.  He seems to put too much faith in later finding supporting documentary evidence, because the technique had worked for him before.  But the more baroque his horological design becomes, the less prone the gears are to  mesh.

It's possible that knowing the marketplace thrives on sensationalist Greer-did-it books, and tales of mercury-tainted blood drops left on JFK's watch, contributed to Lifton's recklessness.  But God love him for what he did do, did research and collect, and has left behind. 

Edited December 11, 2022 by David Andrews

[Matthew Koch]

4 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

I think maybe this is unfair.

I think DSL should be judged by what is in his manuscript.  SInce that will be annotated.

Not what he said in so many interviews. Where he may have just been trying to jab up interest for his book.  

Recall, he went to Go Fund Me to finish it, so he was obviously having some problems either getting an advance or finding the proper publisher.

 

2 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

I agree with @James DiEugenio. This thread is interesting reading, but it seems to be mostly speculation at this point.

 

1 hour ago, Adam Johnson said:

I'm kind of disgusted by many of the responses here by long term members of this forum. This series of videos where made in 2013 and David explains this is where some of his research is taking him...things he hypothesises may mave happened or he believes could have happened. 

This is not his book "Final Charade"....the man was one of the best researchers into the assassination.  He met and interviewed dozens of people face to face, by telephone,  got their permission to record them and film their recollections and testimony.  Numerous times throughout the conversations he states " i have this all on tape" when referring to people's comments/recollections/statements.....the statements that lead him to his possible conclusions. 

We as an outside group are privvy to none of these records he made, yet....DSL was meticulous in covering his ass and backing up his conclusions on verifiable facts told to him by people who were actually there on Nov 22nd and the days, months and years that followed.

Who have you interviewed face to face DVP?

Yes some of the hypothesis DSL espouses in his interview are out there, but we haven't learned what he was told or found out during his research, the documents and recorded interviews he has to back up his hunches or belief's.

The man has taken another almost 10 years since this interview to confirm the ideas he had in 2013......and had NOT published a book saying what he talks about in the 2013 interview is 100% fact.....

Did i say earlier that DVP your a terrible human being in my opinion. Am i allowed to post my opinions here.

I really am incredibly disappointed in some people's replies over the past few days. This is not the community i joined long ago.

A.J

Bump!