David Atlee Phillips: Oswald never went to Mexico!

[Matt Allison]

24 minutes ago, Gene Kelly said:

LOPEZ - Could you estimate how much he weighed?  TIRADO - About your weight, more or less.  He has stronger shoulders, perhaps, than yours.

 

This is interesting, simply because I wouldn't describe LHO as having stronger shoulders than Ed Lopez had back in 1977.

[Joe Bauer]

12 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

For a while I thought that might be the fellow on the right in the below photo, but I think he's already been IDd.

The other two are, L: The original MC mystery man, and, Middle: Nikolai Leonov

What the heck kind of bag and hand held item is the fellow on the left carrying?

and that guy on the right sure looks like Donnie J. Trump.

Edited December 30, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Joe Bauer]

9 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

Jim:

That 7-day period (from September 25- October 4) is fascinating, and the timeline telling:

1. September 20th: Nagell is arrested on 9/20/63, when LHO was still in New Orleans.
2. September 20th: Ruth visits the Oswalds, and Marina decides to return with Ruth for the birth of the baby
3. September 23rd: Ruth and Marina leave for Irving TX
4. September 25: LHO collects an unemployment check of $33 and leaves New Orleans (ostensibly by bus) where the Mexico City charade begins.  He allegedly takes three separate bus trips: leaving Houston early on the morning of the 26th and arriving in Nuevo Laredo on the Mexican border that afternoon; leaving Nuevo Laredo an hour or so later and arriving in Mexico City on the 27th.
5. September 27: Sylvia Tirado Duran (and her colleagues) spoke to someone calling himself Oswald on September 27. He came/left the Consulate three times that same day, persistent and angry, eventually being kicked out.  The imposter also visited the Soviet embassy the next day  
6. September 27th: Silvia Odio receives a visit in Dallas on Friday September 27th; two individuals along with Oswald, one named "Leopoldo" with an odd forehead (likely Bernardo de Torres) doing the speaking and seeking written letters of recommendation from JURE members. 
7. “Leopoldo” phoned Odio the next day to tell her how “Leon” had talked about the need to murder the President and that Leon” is “kind of nuts”, implicating the patsy. Not surprisingly, CIA did not allow the HSCA to later question de Torres (who later infiltrated Garrison’s investigation) about his activities.
8. On a Saturday morning in late September, two men visit Robert McKeown's house in Houston - Lee Oswald and a friend called Hernandez - willing to pay $10,000 for four rifles, 300 Savage automatics and a telescopic sight.
9. October 4th: Oswald returns to Dallas (after a failed attempt to go to Cuba and/or return to the Soviet Union) with no job, no money
10.  October 14th: Ruth and Marina were having coffee at a neighbor’s house, which leads to Lee's finding work at the Book Depository the next day

And as David Josephs has pointed out, from Sept 24 until Oct 31st, there is not a single FBI report on Lee Oswald.

Gene

 

8 days into Mexico?

Bus fares ( 3 ), food, hotel costs. A cheap knock off bracelet for Marina?

Was there any fee for his travel visa?

Then Oswald needs some funds to rent the room on North Beckley too? Maybe a YMCA just before.

Oswald got $33 dollars in unemployment just before he left New Orleans for this journey?

$33 would not cover those expenses.

One must assume Oswald had some extra stashed monies before he left for Mexico as well?

Did he let Marina depart with Ruth Paine without any money at all?

[Paul Brancato]

16 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

8 days into Mexico?

Bus fares ( 3 ), food, hotel costs. A cheap knock off bracelet for Marina?

Was there any fee for his travel visa?

Then Oswald needs some funds to rent the room on North Beckley too? Maybe a YMCA just before.

Oswald got $33 dollars in unemployment just before he left New Orleans for this journey?

$33 would not cover those expenses.

One must assume Oswald had some extra stashed monies before he left for Mexico as well?

Did he let Marina depart with Ruth Paine without any money at all?

He probably just kept his money in cash 

[Sandy Larsen]

49 minutes ago, Gene Kelly said:

During her HSCA interview, she told Ed Lopez the following:

LOPEZ - For example, let's start at the beginning. Was he tall, short?  TIRADO - Short.
LOPEZ - Short. Could you stand up for a minute, Gary? (Laughter.) Would you say he was as tall as Gary?
TIRADO - Yeah, more or less.
LOPEZ - Would you say he was taller than Gary?  TIRADO - No, I think just the same. He was about my size.
LOPEZ - About your height?  TIRADO - Yeah.
LOPEZ - Okay. And what's your height?   TIRADO - 160. I think 160 or 162.
LOPEZ - Was he skinny?  TIRADO - Yes. Skinny.
LOPEZ - Could you estimate how much he weighed?  TIRADO - About your weight, more or less.  He has stronger shoulders, perhaps, than yours.

 

 

 

So 5' 4".

Thanks, I was unaware of that testimony.

 

[Gene Kelly]

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

He probably just kept his money in cash 

Paul:

On September 17th, Lee obtains a tourist card good for one visit to Mexico City from the Mexican consulate in NOLA. Three days later, Ruth visits the Oswalds, and Marina decides to return with her for the birth of the baby (they leave for Irving on September 23rd.  On September 25th, Oswald collects an unemployment check of $33.  He (somehow) returns to Dallas on October 4th with no job, no money.  At this point, Marina (eight months pregnant) is living in suburban Irving at the home of Ruth Paine, who now limits Lee's visits with them. 

My point here is, he didn't have much money.  And all of this happens in the space of just two weeks.  Strange ... 

Gene

[Benjamin Cole]

It sure looks like LHO was impersonated, and badly, at the Cuban Embassy in MC. 

LHO's visit to the USSR embassy strikes me as "real." Not only that, the KGB likely received intentionally leaked info that a CIA asset was on the way to visit. Otherwise, they would not have received LHO, an ordinary and annoying US tourist on a Saturday and cancelled a volleyball game. 

Kostikov met LHO to try to glean info. 

This implies LHO was being shadowed in MC by the CIA. Was he an operational asset? Seems likely.

 

 

 

Edited December 30, 2022 by Benjamin Cole

[Joe Bauer]

8 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

Paul:

On September 17th, Lee obtains a tourist card good for one visit to Mexico City from the Mexican consulate in NOLA. Three days later, Ruth visits the Oswalds, and Marina decides to return with her for the birth of the baby (they leave for Irving on September 23rd.  On September 25th, Oswald collects an unemployment check of $33.  He (somehow) returns to Dallas on October 4th with no job, no money.  At this point, Marina (eight months pregnant) is living in suburban Irving at the home of Ruth Paine, who now limits Lee's visits with them. 

My point here is, he didn't have much money.  And all of this happens in the space of just two weeks.  Strange ... 

Gene

One could assume that Oswald had squirreled away some monies from his past employment before Ruth Paine's visit. I don't know how long before Ruth came to visit and then took Marina back with her to Irving, TX. Lee last worked or where.

Maybe he had some side money paid to him from his leaflet passing jobs?

It would be importantly interesting to know Lee's income and expenses the last month or two before Ruth took Marina and Lee packed it in and took off for Mexico via Texas.

Of course he had to pay rent, feed his family.

I would assume also he didn't give Ruth Paine any shared expense help monies. He may or may not have given Marina any monies when she left.

Did Lee move out of their NO apartment without contacting his landlord about doing so? Did he stiff her for some monies due at that time?

As Gene pointed out, Lee had three separate bus trips to get to Mexico. He had to rent a hotel room while in MC for almost what, 4 or 5 days? He had to eat while there. Oswald did know how to survive the cheapest way possible however.

He then comes back to Texas. I guess his last bus from Texas to MC was a round trip one?

But another bus to Dallas was a separate expense.

Oswald still had enough funds to stay somewhere in the Dallas area before he got the schoolbook depository job did he not? He had to eat. He had to wash his clothes. Maybe get a hair cut? Take city bus trips. All this before his first TXSBD job paycheck?

Lee had a duffle bag full of his clothes and belongings that he brought into his North Beckley room according to housekeeper rent taker Earlene Roberts. Did he take this on his MC trip?

Did Lee stay at a local YMCA house before moving into the N. Beckley room and perhaps was able to leave his duffle bag there until he moved to N. Beckley? Was the duffle bag stored at Ruth Paine's and Lee somehow got it from there to his room?

All of Lee's daily personal needs belongings were in that bag along with clothes? It also contained his pistol.

Lee's last unemployment check of $33 picked up in New Orleans alone would not have covered Lee's travel and living expenses to Mexico City and then Dallas/Oak Cliff until his first TXSBD job paycheck.

It may be a simple explanation that Lee had socked away another 50 to 100 dollars somehow before he ever left to Mexico City. Lee was as secret with his money as he was about everything else.

 

 

 

Edited December 30, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Joseph McBride]

I have never seen any credible evidence that Oswald

went to Mexico City. Even J. Edgar Hoover

doubted it, as he told LBJ on the morning of November 23, 1963.

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/lbjlib/phone_calls/Nov_1963/html/LBJ-Nov-1963_0030a.htm

Edited December 30, 2022 by Joseph McBride

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Joseph McBride said:

I have never seen any credible evidence that Oswald

went to Mexico City. Even J. Edgar Hoover

doubted it, as he told LBJ on the morning of November 23, 1963.

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/lbjlib/phone_calls/Nov_1963/html/LBJ-Nov-1963_0030a.htm

 

Oh my gosh, I've always been under the impression the J. Edgar Hoover thought that the Oswald at the CUBAN Consulate was an imposter. But reading the evidence for myself, I see that it was the Oswald at the SOVIET Embassy that Hoover said was an imposter.

Does anybody know if Hoover felt the same way about the Oswald at the Cuban Consulate? Or is our knowledge of that guy also being an imposter based only on other sources? (Duran's and Azcue's descriptions, Cuban intelligence, two CIA plants not seeing Oswald.)

 

[Steve Roe]

8 hours ago, Joseph McBride said:

I have never seen any credible evidence that Oswald

went to Mexico City. Even J. Edgar Hoover

doubted it, as he told LBJ on the morning of November 23, 1963.

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/lbjlib/phone_calls/Nov_1963/html/LBJ-Nov-1963_0030a.htm

Joe I'm surprised by your statement of not seeing credible evidence that Oswald went to Mexico City. I'm not sure where you were researching, but it's JFK 101 that everyone knows Silvia Duran's name is in Oswald's notebook. He was most certainly there in Mexico City, and there's other physical items of proof. 

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth346819/m1/45/?q="Oswald book"

It is true that outgoing Cuban Consulate Azcue said he believed it wasn't Oswald, however incoming Cuban Consulate Mirabal said it was Oswald, in HSCA testimony. 

[Mart Hall]

5 hours ago, Steve Roe said:

Joe I'm surprised by your statement of not seeing credible evidence that Oswald went to Mexico City. I'm not sure where you were researching, but it's JFK 101 that everyone knows Silvia Duran's name is in Oswald's notebook. He was most certainly there in Mexico City, and there's other physical items of proof. 

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth346819/m1/45/?q="Oswald book"

It is true that outgoing Cuban Consulate Azcue said he believed it wasn't Oswald, however incoming Cuban Consulate Mirabal said it was Oswald, in HSCA testimony. 

I’m only a five year newbie to all this but it’s very difficult to accept that there were at least 4 security services involved in this and yet none of them are able to provide incontrovertible evidence that LHO who was killed on 11-24-63 was in attendance at either embassy.

[Gene Kelly]

15 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

One could assume that Oswald had squirreled away some monies from his past employment before Ruth Paine's visit. I don't know how long before Ruth came to visit and then took Marina back with her to Irving, TX. Lee last worked or where.

Maybe he had some side money paid to him from his leaflet passing jobs?

It would be importantly interesting to know Lee's income and expenses the last month or two before Ruth took Marina and Lee packed it in and took off for Mexico via Texas.

Of course he had to pay rent, feed his family.

I would assume also he didn't give Ruth Paine any shared expense help monies. He may or may not have given Marina any monies when she left.

Did Lee move out of their NO apartment without contacting his landlord about doing so? Did he stiff her for some monies due at that time?

As Gene pointed out, Lee had three separate bus trips to get to Mexico. He had to rent a hotel room while in MC for almost what, 4 or 5 days? He had to eat while there. Oswald did know how to survive the cheapest way possible however.

He then comes back to Texas. I guess his last bus from Texas to MC was a round trip one?

But another bus to Dallas was a separate expense.

Oswald still had enough funds to stay somewhere in the Dallas area before he got the schoolbook depository job did he not? He had to eat. He had to wash his clothes. Maybe get a hair cut? Take city bus trips. All this before his first TXSBD job paycheck?

Lee had a duffle bag full of his clothes and belongings that he brought into his North Beckley room according to housekeeper rent taker Earlene Roberts. Did he take this on his MC trip?

Did Lee stay at a local YMCA house before moving into the N. Beckley room and perhaps was able to leave his duffle bag there until he moved to N. Beckley? Was the duffle bag stored at Ruth Paine's and Lee somehow got it from there to his room?

All of Lee's daily personal needs belongings were in that bag along with clothes? It also contained his pistol.

Lee's last unemployment check of $33 picked up in New Orleans alone would not have covered Lee's travel and living expenses to Mexico City and then Dallas/Oak Cliff until his first TXSBD job paycheck.

It may be a simple explanation that Lee had socked away another 50 to 100 dollars somehow before he ever left to Mexico City. Lee was as secret with his money as he was about everything else.

 

 

 

Joe

On April 6th, Oswald was let go by Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall because, in his supervisor's opinion, he allegedly did not get along with his fellow employees. He then decides to move to New Orleans, and on April 24, Ruth drives him to the bus station; he arrives in NOLA and moves in with his aunt Lillian Murret.

On May 9, Oswald submitted an application for employment with William Reily Company, where his employment lasted a little more than two months until July 19th, when he was let go for allegedly spending too much time in Alba's garage (where he is apparently getting paid by either INS or FBI for unknown services. 

Meanwhile, Marina left Dallas on May 10th and arrives with Mrs. Paine, who stayed with the Oswald’s for 8 days. On May 14, Ruth Paine leaves New Orleans to return to her home in Irving.  

[Gene Kelly]

1 minute ago, Gene Kelly said:

Joe

On April 6th, Oswald was let go by Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall because, in his supervisor's opinion, he allegedly did not get along with his fellow employees. He then decides to move to New Orleans, and on April 24, Ruth drives him to the bus station; he arrives in NOLA and moves in with his aunt Lillian Murret.

On May 9, Oswald submitted an application for employment with William Reily Company, where his employment lasted a little more than two months until July 19th, when he was let go for allegedly spending too much time in Alba's garage (where he is apparently getting paid by either INS or FBI for unknown services. 

Meanwhile, Marina left Dallas on May 10th and arrives with Mrs. Paine, who stayed with the Oswald’s for 8 days. On May 14, Ruth Paine leaves New Orleans to return to her home in Irving.  

Lee apparently is paid $25 (by Bannister and Associates) for the leafletting stunts in August. On September 20th, Ruth Paine returns to NOLA, where Marina decides to return with her to Dallas for the birth of the baby; on September 23rd, they leave for Irving.  Lee will return a week or so later, on October 4th, allegedly with no job and no money. 

Gene

[Gene Kelly]

12 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Oh my gosh, I've always been under the impression the J. Edgar Hoover thought that the Oswald at the CUBAN Consulate was an imposter. But reading the evidence for myself, I see that it was the Oswald at the SOVIET Embassy that Hoover said was an imposter.

Does anybody know if Hoover felt the same way about the Oswald at the Cuban Consulate? Or is our knowledge of that guy also being an imposter based only on other sources? (Duran's and Azcue's descriptions, Cuban intelligence, two CIA plants not seeing Oswald.)

 

Sandy

I think that Eusebio Azcue's statements are credible ... and he was adamant that the imposter in the Cuban Consulate on Friday Sept 27th was not our guy Ozzie.  There were also some other sources that testified to that effect.

The HSCA Lopez report states that Eusebio Azcue Lopez, a Cuban citizen, was the Cuban Consul, and he had diplomatic immunity.  The HSCA asked the Cuban government to make Azcue available for staff interviews and they complied with the Committee's request on April 1, 1978.  Azcue stated that Alfredo Mirabal, who in September 1963 had recently arrived from Cuba to assume the Consul's duties, had also been present during Oswald's visit.   During a second trip to Cuba, the HSCA (including Lopez and Hardaway) interviewed Mirabal. Both of these individuals were then available for the public hearings on September 18, 1978, where Azcue Lopez again told the HSCA at a public hearing on 9/18/78 that the Consul visitor was not LHO. 

There were also other witnesses that day at the Consulate ...two Cuban officials—Guillermo Ruiz and Antonio García—from the Commercial Office, located upstairs, were also eyewitnesses of the Oswald imposter’s making a scene at the Consulate, and both claimed they didn’t hear any threats against Kennedy.  I would refer you to a May 2017 Kennedys and King article "JFK Declassified: Tracking Oswald, Part 3" written by Arnaldo M. Fernandez which unravels some of this story.  Further, the declassified HSCA Lopez Report describes the following:

The Cuban Consulate was in a separate building from the Embassy.  In 1963, the Cuban diplomatic compound in Mexico City was at Francisco Marquez Street (Colonia Condesa) with two main entrances: One to the Embassy, on the corner of Tacubaya Alley, and the other to the Consulate, on the corner of Zamora Street. 

Gene