David Atlee Phillips: Oswald never went to Mexico!

[Joe Bauer]

16 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

IMHO, this memo appears to confirm that Nagell was likely "intermittently" employed as an informant for the CIA from August 1962 through October of 1963. 

I admire the research done to unearth this memo.

I am not sure who was Hench, or who he worked for, from this memo. 

Also, would the CIA divulge sources and methods to Hench, if Hench was not CIA? 

 

 

 

Amazing document research effort.

Incredibly thought provoking.

If Nagel had "any" contact with LHO at any time, he should not be dismissed as totally or even marginally irrelevant from what we see here in this document alone.

IMO anyways.

 

[Charles Blackmon]

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

 the entire "visit" was a False Mystery made of paper statements... 

a Magical Mystery Tour!

[Kirk Gallaway]

16 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

Generally speaking, saying evidence is fabricated doesn't work for convincing me personally, because in reality fabricating evidence is difficult to do in secrecy, and never done unless all other possible options have been exhausted first.

Well put , Matt! the more people complicit, the less I'm inclined to believe the claim.

I've done my best in the past, to penetrate this question. And I haven't come to a clear conclusion. And I'm not talking specifically about this thread.

 

This is where in my opinion, the Lner's criticism of the JFKAC is correct. Where there's a flaw or inconsistency, it's always passed off as someone, presumably of the conspiracy, though maybe an unwitting part of the conspiracy, is lying. When the narrative is first laid out, in fact, this deception is never divulged, it's just come to be understood.

 

Then when this assertion is questioned, there can be sort of a haughty reply. Particularly in a case when the questioner poses an alternative that's less deceptive, less calculated, less sinister. It's as if reinforcing a greater, more comprehensive conspiracy, or in a  broader context, in some cases, more conspiracies is some sort of a badge of awareness that these CTer's  hold over each other.

 

It can be obstructionist, and should be questioned and discussed, whenever it's asserted.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

19 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

In my Fake Conspiracy theory, the whole thing was fabricated. And virtually everybody who has studied it agrees that it was, including the FBI and conspiracy theorists.

19 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

"Virtually everybody" ? You're joking, right? I can think of dozens of highly experienced researchers, many of whom frequent this forum, who profoundly disagree with your ceaseless insistence that all the evidence is fake, particularly as it pertains to Oswald's visit to Mexico City.

 

Here is what the evidence for the Fake Conspiracy showed, as I wrote in my first post on it:

While in Mexico City, Oswald hung out with Cuban Consulate employee Sylvia Duran and a bunch of her friends. They had parties together, and so forth. One day Oswald and his red-haired negro friend were at the Cuban Consulate and they were paid a $6500 up-front fee to kill Kennedy. So apparently Oswald and his associate were in MC to make that arrangement.

One day, Oswald called Valeriy Kostikov at the Soviet embassy. Kostikov was  known to the CIA as head of the KGB assassinations unit.

So now we know that Russia and Cuba were both involved in the JFK assassination, and Lee Harvey Oswald was the lead guy for the American hit team. (The idea of a "hit team" is based on other evidence outside of MC. Just go with it for now.)

So you can think of dozens of highly experienced researchers who disagree with my insistence that the evidence for this was faked? Really?

Name a few.

 

[David Josephs]

4 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

DJ---

Yes, you are showing documents that indicate LHO was likely impersonated at the Cuban Embassy. 

That LHO took a bus to MC is also not proven. One might wonder how strict Mexican busses were in 1963 at ascertaining the ID of riders. 

One note seems to indicate a rider could use an alias to board a bus to MC--that "known aliases" were  checked, such as "Hidell". What if LHO ID'ed himself as "Tom Jones" on a bus ride to MC? Would that somehow be found out in paperwork? 

In any event, I proposing that LHO in fact visited the Soviet Embassy.

How would you go about verifying, or disproving, that LHO visited the Russians? 

To be sure, the CIA never presented any photos of LHO near the Russian Embassy, or anywhere for that matter, in Mexico. 

What if LHO had given the thumb's up to the CIA camera? 

 

 

Ben...  help me understand then ... the FBI blows her off (since they say he was on a bus that day) the WC waits until July 1964 to even talk to her and take her testimony in which she correctly identifies Oswald in a variety of photos depicting a variety of locations...  Could she be lying? as well as her sister?  FBI wasn't interested in pushing the matter.

If this is Oswald at Odio...  or even if it's possible we must look very carefully at where the WC and FBI puts him and with what substantiation?  The closer one looks the more obvious he didn't go it becomes... (and then there is everything Tarasoff says that was suppressed for years)

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first become aware of the fact that this man who had been at your apartment was the man who had been arrested in connection with the assassination?
Mrs. ODIO. It was immediately.
Mr. LIEBELER. As soon as you saw his picture?
Mrs. ODIO. Immediately; I was so sure.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt about it?
Mrs. ODIO. I don't have any doubts.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any doubt about it then?
Mrs. ODIO. I kept saying it can't be to myself; it just can't be. I mean it couldn't be, but when my sister walked into the hospital and she said, "Sylvia, have you seen the man?" And I said, "Yes." And she said, "That was the man that was at the door of my house." So I had no doubts then.

[Guest]

On 1/6/2023 at 7:21 AM, David Josephs said:

Of the 4 pages in the HENCH MEMO I only have 1 page thanks to John Armstrong's daily visits to the Archives and his copying a treasure trove of documents not offered anywhere else.  Maybe send this to Russell to close the loop?

How does this change your humble opinion?

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Guest]

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Matt Allison]

"AGENT'S NOTES: It was obvious throughout both interviews with SUBJECT that HE was mentally disturbed. SUBJECT broke down and cried on numerous occasions, usually when the conversation concerned HIS attempts to locate HIS family."

 

fwiw, anyone that thinks a man shouldn't be disturbed about being unable to find his family, is more than likely a psychopath.

[Benjamin Cole]

2 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

Well, here ya go: Is this Document the Smoking Gun on the Richard Case Nagell Story? (onthetrailofdelusion.com)

Fred Litwin has the entire memo, and it does all come from Nagell!

Lance P--

Yes, this is what I have suspected. Everything about Nagell is dubious. 

Nagell was injured, and badly, in service of his country.  He deserves hats-off respect. But his track record regarding the JFKA is very iffy. 

However, I still think CIA-connected elements were responsible for the JFKA, and LHO was impersonated at the Cuban Embassy. 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

6 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Ben...  help me understand then ... the FBI blows her off (since they say he was on a bus that day) the WC waits until July 1964 to even talk to her and take her testimony in which she correctly identifies Oswald in a variety of photos depicting a variety of locations...  Could she be lying? as well as her sister?  FBI wasn't interested in pushing the matter.

If this is Oswald at Odio...  or even if it's possible we must look very carefully at where the WC and FBI puts him and with what substantiation?  The closer one looks the more obvious he didn't go it becomes... (and then there is everything Tarasoff says that was suppressed for years)

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first become aware of the fact that this man who had been at your apartment was the man who had been arrested in connection with the assassination?
Mrs. ODIO. It was immediately.
Mr. LIEBELER. As soon as you saw his picture?
Mrs. ODIO. Immediately; I was so sure.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt about it?
Mrs. ODIO. I don't have any doubts.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any doubt about it then?
Mrs. ODIO. I kept saying it can't be to myself; it just can't be. I mean it couldn't be, but when my sister walked into the hospital and she said, "Sylvia, have you seen the man?" And I said, "Yes." And she said, "That was the man that was at the door of my house." So I had no doubts then.

DJ--

Odio may be a perfectly good witness. So might be the two Australian women who say they met LHO on a bus headed toward MC. 

How do you know which witnesses are dead on, and which have made an error? 

Edited January 8, 2023 by Benjamin Cole

[Matt Allison]

The evidence demonstrates Nagell was investigating the FPCC; a member in California confirmed that. Additionally, collected FPCC literature was found in the trunk of Nagell's car when he was arrested.

It's pretty obvious he wasn't trying to rob that bank. He never claimed that he put himself out of commission because of an upcoming JFKA; IIRC, there was a Cuban that was tailing him that wanted to put him out of commission permanently, and that's what led to the bank incident.

After news of Oswald's arrest broke on 11/22/63, Nagell summoned the jail guard and requested to immediately speak with the Secret Service. Shortly thereafter, the SS questioned Marina about Nagell. Nagell also wrote a letter to the WC in early 1964.

Nagell didn't know upcoming details about Dallas; there was no way he could as he was in jail months before. But he very easily could have known about Oswald from New Orleans activities. His belief was that Oswald was involved in a plot to kill JFK in DC, an awfully accurate guess seeing as we later found out LHO had written letters claiming he was going to move to the DC/Baltimore area.

The possibility exists that he padded his story in order to gain leverage from the government in his disability requests from them. Indications are that it worked, as he cut a deal with them at some point, and began to ignore any requests for comment on the JFKA after the late 70s.

[Ron Bulman]

I wasn't aware of the Cuban tailing him to eliminate him causing the shooting of the bank ceiling.  Any suspects?

[Matt Allison]

4 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

I wasn't aware of the Cuban tailing him to eliminate him causing the shooting of the bank ceiling.  Any suspects?

I don't know if he ever gave any clues to that. The problem is that in 1963 it could conceivably have been any of a dozen different Cubans, all with different motivations.

[David Josephs]

9 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

DJ--

Odio may be a perfectly good witness. So might be the two Australian women who say they met LHO on a bus headed toward MC. 

How do you know which witnesses are dead on, and which have made an error? 

For me it comes down to how the evidence is authenticated...

FBI puts Oswald on a different bus than the Aussie girls and the MacFarland's and never makes the correction

Ben... I put a lot of work into those 5-6 chapters on that trip... Repeatedly we are offered trips that are impossible, witnesses that are obviously lying and physical evidence that has been either created on stolen on a country wide basis.

If you want to know why I think what I do about Mexico, you'd have to read the work.  There are scores of names, more documents and I honestly think I did a decent job of illustrating what the FBI did with OCHOA and the CIA with Echeverria.   Agree or not my friend... Oswald did not take a bus to Mexico, nor does the evidence establish he was actually in Mexico at any point in time.

E.G... the Aussie girls get back onto their DEL NORTE bus on Monterrey... FBI is still focused on their conclusion that Oswald was on Flecha Rojas...  CD1245 was especially helpful among many, many others.  Not only are they not on the bus manifest, but the bus leaves at 15:30 which makes it impossible to have gotten from Nuevo Laredo to Monterrey on any bus in time to leave on the next one.  The passport she talks about is the 1959 one not the one Harvey gets in June 1963 with no stamps whatsoever...  like she's been fed the info...

 

Mr. BALL. Well. you were shown pictures of a man later on by the Federal Bureau of Investigation agent, were you not?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And they showed you pictures of Oswald, didn't they; Lee Harvey Oswald?
Miss MUMFORD. No.
Mr. BALL. You didn't ever see a picture of Oswald?
Miss MUMFORD. No.

Even Oswald himself would not consider himself a "Texan".. he was from New Orleans...

Miss MUMFORD. There was a young English couple who were traveling down to the Yucatan to study the Indians and their way of life. There was an elderly English gentleman in his mid- or late-sixties, I should imagine. He told us during the journey that he had lived on and off in Mexico for 25 years.
Then there was the young Texan, Lee Harvey Oswald, and Patricia and myself.

This is the man BOWEN testifies is Spanish and older... that no one on the bus he was on spoke english...  The Aussies and the MacFarlands, despite being on a manifest were lying about who they were with on their buses....

One needs to dig a little deeper than you seem to want to go with this...  and then again, I can be 100% wrong as well... Just putting out there what I did and what I found it meant...  many, many are now finally coming around to see I may have been right.

[Benjamin Cole]

7 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

For me it comes down to how the evidence is authenticated...

FBI puts Oswald on a different bus than the Aussie girls and the MacFarland's and never makes the correction

Ben... I put a lot of work into those 5-6 chapters on that trip... Repeatedly we are offered trips that are impossible, witnesses that are obviously lying and physical evidence that has been either created on stolen on a country wide basis.

If you want to know why I think what I do about Mexico, you'd have to read the work.  There are scores of names, more documents and I honestly think I did a decent job of illustrating what the FBI did with OCHOA and the CIA with Echeverria.   Agree or not my friend... Oswald did not take a bus to Mexico, nor does the evidence establish he was actually in Mexico at any point in time.

E.G... the Aussie girls get back onto their DEL NORTE bus on Monterrey... FBI is still focused on their conclusion that Oswald was on Flecha Rojas...  CD1245 was especially helpful among many, many others.  Not only are they not on the bus manifest, but the bus leaves at 15:30 which makes it impossible to have gotten from Nuevo Laredo to Monterrey on any bus in time to leave on the next one.  The passport she talks about is the 1959 one not the one Harvey gets in June 1963 with no stamps whatsoever...  like she's been fed the info...

 

Mr. BALL. Well. you were shown pictures of a man later on by the Federal Bureau of Investigation agent, were you not?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And they showed you pictures of Oswald, didn't they; Lee Harvey Oswald?
Miss MUMFORD. No.
Mr. BALL. You didn't ever see a picture of Oswald?
Miss MUMFORD. No.

Even Oswald himself would not consider himself a "Texan".. he was from New Orleans...

Miss MUMFORD. There was a young English couple who were traveling down to the Yucatan to study the Indians and their way of life. There was an elderly English gentleman in his mid- or late-sixties, I should imagine. He told us during the journey that he had lived on and off in Mexico for 25 years.
Then there was the young Texan, Lee Harvey Oswald, and Patricia and myself.

This is the man BOWEN testifies is Spanish and older... that no one on the bus he was on spoke english...  The Aussies and the MacFarlands, despite being on a manifest were lying about who they were with on their buses....

One needs to dig a little deeper than you seem to want to go with this...  and then again, I can be 100% wrong as well... Just putting out there what I did and what I found it meant...  many, many are now finally coming around to see I may have been right.

DJ

Thanks for the explanations. 

I will continue to try to understand your excellent work.  

As stated, I wonder how LHO got to MC, possibly even by small plane. 

There is a strong argument that LHO was impersonated at the Cuban Embassy. I think he was. 

The Soviet Embassy?....there, the outlook (IMHO) is different. 

I wish I knew if there were any contemporary Russian cables, memos, etc. regarding the supposed LHO visit. I would happily accept a contemporary Russian cable that said, "We were never visited by LHO. That is a canard!" 

What the CIA may be trying to cover up is assistance they, or cut-outs-operatives, gave LHO in getting to MC. So they invented the phony story about busses.

LHO is supposed to be a lone nut, but if he got a ride....

I am not disagreeing with you. I am just keeping an open mind that LHO did in fact visit the Russians in MC.