Basic facts that seem like conspiracy-killers to me

[Steve Roe]

2 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Greg Parker posted a lengthy reply to this thread on ROKC.

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2679-sorry-lance-but-you-re-getting-another-dose-just-because#41237

For those not familiar with the bits about Frazier and the Randles, the lead on Bill Randle came from a couple diligent Irving Postal Inspectors who interviewed the neighbors on Nov. 22nd. 

https://digitalcollections-baylor.quartexcollections.com/Documents/Detail/dallas-texas-witnesses-police-district-attorney-and-postal-inspectors-harry-holmes/705263?item=705295

The part about TSBD employment might look like there was just a mix-up with Buell, but there’s reason to suspect there’s more to it than that. The Secret Service took the lead on Bill Randle very seriously - long after it was officially established that Buell was the driver. They investigated Bill as an Oswald associate and were still reporting that Bill took Oswald to work through at least November 26th, and included that detail in their official personal history report on Oswald. 

Randle’s whereabouts and actions on the day of the assassination are completely unaccounted for until 7pm, when a motel manager reported him to the FBI in Austin after overhearing him say he knew Oswald personally and had heard rumors that JFK would be assassinated if he came to Dallas. Bill denied everything. 

There’s a lot more to this angle - discussed in detail in the following thread. Pretty interesting stuff, IMO, that makes you wonder if some of the “basic facts” of the case are really facts at all:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1456-buell-wesley-frazier-wheres-your-rider-part-a

Tom, tell Greg Parker and his associates to try harder next time. There is nothing suspicious about Bill Randle. And when you're at it, ask Parker if he still believes that Oswald never lived at the Beckley Rooming house. I went round and round with him about that several years ago. 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10490#relPageId=187&search=Bill_Randle

[Steve Roe]

12 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

I agree that would be a heckuva coincidence, unless someone knew his fake name and made that happen. But even that stretches things a bit, IMO. It makes sense to me that that rifle was used because it was Oswald's rifle. IOW, I agree with you and Lance et al that it's likely the weapon was the weapon he'd ordered. 

Thanks Pat for the honest answer. 

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Lance Payette said:

This is one comical problem with Conspiracy World. Literally NOTHING - from Oswald’s school days ... to his defection to the USSR ... to his return to the U.S. ... to his purchase of the rifle ... to the Walker incident ... to his employment at the TSBD ... to his assassination of JFK ... to his escape ... to the Tippit killing and his arrest ... to Ruby's murder of him - is as it seems on its face. NOTHING the FBI, DPD, Postal Service or Bethesda autopsy team did was as it seems. Indeed, NOTHING about ANY aspect of the assassination was as it seems.

What you just said about "Conspiracy World" is oh so true, Lance. As far as I can recall, about the only piece of evidence connected to the whole case (including the Tippit murder) that most conspiracy theorists are willing to accept as real and legitimate evidence might be the Oswald fingerprints that were found on the boxes deep inside the Sniper's Nest.

And the only reason CTers accept those prints as being legit is because they will insist that those particular prints don't really indicate "guilt" on the part of Lee Oswald at all.

Whenever the subject of those box prints comes up, I'm always treated to the "Well, he worked there" excuse, with CTers forever ignoring the rather incriminating portions of the boxes where some of those fresh prints were found (such as the Oswald palmprint found on the box LHO probably utilized as a chair).

And speaking of the "Nothing Is Ever What It Seems To Be" Conspiracy Club, Lance's post above reminded me of this exchange from a few years back:

"James Gordon seems to want to come up with SOME type of excuse so that he won't have to call Governor Connally's movements what they really are -- "flinching", "arm-raising", and "grimacing". Conspiracy theorists do the exact same kind of crap with JFK's forward head movement between frames 312 and 313. They say it's merely a "blur", or some kind of "video anomaly". It can't REALLY be the President's head moving forward though, they'll say. But how many of these "It's not really what it seems to be" excuses is one excuse too many?" -- DVP; May 13, 2015
 

Edited January 20, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Tom Gram]

3 minutes ago, Steve Roe said:

Tom, tell Greg Parker and his associates to try harder next time. There is nothing suspicious about Bill Randle. And when you're at it, ask Parker if he still believes that Oswald never lived at the Beckley Rooming house. I went round and round with him about that several years ago. 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10490#relPageId=187&search=Bill_Randle

Randle’s statement to the Secret Service on the 28th directly contradicts basically everything that was reported to the FBI:

 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10422#relPageId=36

I’m not really seeing a great reason to believe Bill over the motel manager.

Also, does it really make sense that the Secret Service would wait until the 28th to interview Bill about an FBI report when: 1) the SS had their own information on the afternoon of the assassination that Bill drove Oswald to work - or at least claimed he did; and 2) they were investigating Bill as an Oswald associate and possible purchaser of the rifle scope on the 23rd? 

Bill’s whereabouts on the 22nd are a complete mystery until 7pm - and there seems to be a pretty major gap in the investigative record. Where are the SS documents discussing the information obtained from the Irving Postal inspectors? The Oswald change of address form those guys gave the SS vanished, along with anything discussing any sort of follow-up on the Randle lead. Was Schneider reinterviewed? Was Dorothy Roberts interviewed to corroborate Schneider? What about the Randles? 

Also, how could the SS be so clueless to write in an official report on Nov. 26th that Bill Randle was Oswald’s only known associate and that he drove Oswald to and from work? 

https://digitalcollections-baylor.quartexcollections.com/Documents/Detail/lho-arrested-at-texas-theater-nov.-22-24-1963.-c.w.-dhority/688545?item=688553

Maybe there’s nothing to it, but I think these are valid questions. 

[Guest]

On 1/20/2023 at 2:24 PM, Tom Gram said:

Randle’s statement to the Secret Service on the 28th directly contradicts basically everything that was reported to the FBI:

 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10422#relPageId=36

I’m not really seeing a great reason to believe Bill over the motel manager.

Also, does it really make sense that the Secret Service would wait until the 28th to interview Bill about an FBI report when: 1) the SS had their own information on the afternoon of the assassination that Bill drove Oswald to work - or at least claimed he did; and 2) they were investigating Bill as an Oswald associate and possible purchaser of the rifle scope on the 23rd? 

Bill’s whereabouts on the 22nd are a complete mystery until 7pm - and there seems to be a pretty major gap in the investigative record. Where are the SS documents discussing the information obtained from the Irving Postal inspectors? The Oswald change of address form those guys gave the SS vanished, along with anything discussing any sort of follow-up on the Randle lead. Was Schneider reinterviewed? Was Dorothy Roberts interviewed to corroborate Schneider? What about the Randles? 

Also, how could the SS be so clueless to write in an official report on Nov. 26th that Bill Randle was Oswald’s only known associate and that he drove Oswald to and from work? 

https://digitalcollections-baylor.quartexcollections.com/Documents/Detail/lho-arrested-at-texas-theater-nov.-22-24-1963.-c.w.-dhority/688545?item=688553

Maybe there’s nothing to it, but I think these are valid questions. 

Bye

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Charles Blackmon]

19 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

Yes, "more pieces to the puzzle" is pretty much the Conspiracy Game.

Incredible isn't it - no, maybe it's not - that not only poor old Ruth Paine but Michael, Linnie Mae Randle and even her husband Bill were involved in the conspiracy? I can scarcely think of a less-likely quartet of participants, but that's just how clever the conspirators were. Toss in CIA operative Roy Truly and you have a royal flush of unlikely conspirators.

This is one comical problem with Conspiracy World. Literally NOTHING - from Oswald’s school days ... to his defection to the USSR ... to his return to the U.S. ... to his purchase of the rifle ... to the Walker incident ... to his employment at the TSBD ... to his assassination of JFK ... to his escape ... to the Tippit killing and his arrest ... to Ruby's murder of him - is as it seems on its face. NOTHING the FBI, DPD, Postal Service or Bethesda autopsy team did was as it seems. Indeed, NOTHING about ANY aspect of the assassination was as it seems.

Literally EVERYTHING at EVERY stage is riddled with clues to a vast conspiracy in which misguided young punk Oswald emerges as the Most Mysterious Man Who Ever Lived. And, as I have said repeatedly, the Dark Forces responsible for this fantastically complex conspiracy conveniently happen to have been diabolical geniuses when the conspiracy demands them to have been but also fumbling fools who left umpteen screaming “clues” for CTers to drool over for decades.

The fact CTers never seem to see the absurdity and humor in all this only underscores that there is indeed a conspiracy-prone psychological type for whom this pretty obvious nonsense is Grim Truth.

I guess people like me just lack the conspiracy gene and are doomed to live in the real world. But, hey, dream on if it scratches your conspiracy itch.

Did the Randles have any children? What were they up to on November 21 and 22, anyway? I don't care if they were toddlers, they are potential pieces of the puzzle.

Rail on about the "conspiracy game" all you want, its just what you do. I would say if anybody loves games its you as you seem to have a need to stay ahead in the points column, and always have to have the last word.

I still prefer to think of the assassination as a puzzle in need of answers, and that why I come here hoping to find answers from the brain trust of researchers who contribute. Answers to puzzles like these below:

Of all the sworn witnesses inside the TSBD on 11/22/63 who say they saw Oswald arrive for work, none have testified he was carrying anything. How can this possibly be if the whole case against LHO is predicated on his bringing the rifle into the TSBD that morning?

Bonnie Ray Williams left his spot on the 6th floor at around 12:15 according to his WC testimony. He testified that there was no activity going on in the location of the so-called "snipers nest". The information provided to the public and law enforcement about the motorcade is that it was expected at the Trade Mart no later than 12:15. The motorcade was running delayed. How could Oswald have known that his Lone Nut "moment of opportunity" would end up being right around 12:30 and not much earlier so he could take his time getting up to the 6th floor?

At least 42 people who either witnessed the assassination or had important information unknown to the general public died within 3 years of the assassination. The odds of that happening are around 1 in a trillion. The number of unexplained, often violent deaths accelerated as important witnesses were subpoened by the HSCA (George de Morenschildt and Jim Rosselli, among others). 103 witnesses had died by 1978. Looks like somebody wanted to make dead sure somebody did not talk.

Why have CBS and NBC so far refused to donate its outtakes from its assassination-related TV specials to the JFK Collection. What are they hiding?

Speaking of hiding, what is the CIA hiding from the American people?

Why was Domingo Benavides description of the Tippit shooter as not looking like Oswald ignored by the WC, even though he got closer than other witnesses to the unfolding events? There were in addition ten witnesses would not identify Oswald as either the shooter or as someone who fled the scene of the shooting.

Why did American media decline to publish the results of an Italian team's efforts to recreate the shooting that Oswald pulled off (according to the WR, 3 shots in 6 seconds), a reinaction that was unsuccessful? Why was Dealey Plaza subsequently closed to any further such investigations?

What was a CIA-employed psychiatrist who worked on PSYOPS doing alone with Jack Ruby in his jail cell?

The evidence presented in Joseph McBride's book Into the Nightmare convincingly shows DPD officer J.D. Tippit was frantically looking for Oswald in the roughly 24 minutes before he was shot dead in Oak Cliff, a Dallas suburb at no later than 1:15 p.m. How would he have known about Oswald being the alleged assassin only minutes after the 12:30 assassination?

Why are there metal fragments all over the X-rays of JFKs head, yet CE 399 is only mildly warped after all the destruction it did to two men?

Why did the new president LBJ feel the need to telephone Capt. Fritz of the DPD and advise him to quit interogating Oswald since "you have your man"? The transcript of the police interviews with Oswald held after his arrest were destroyed. Is this common practice with homocide suspects?

Inquiring minds want to know. Closed minds, not so much.

 

Edited January 21, 2023 by Charles Blackmon
typo

[Michaleen Kilroy]

There’s a study in human perception here somewhere.

The LN side never seems to acknowledge that the JFKA is endlessly perplexing because the authorities decided on the result before they investigated - for various reasons both known and murky.

The LNers act like the authorities honestly wanted to solve the case. It’s obvious to me they never did. So it remains a never-ending mystery to this day because of the govt’s lack of interest in pursuing the whole truth and the aggressive cover up across agencies as well.

And 60 years later, here we are. Citizens still debating it.

Btw, I asked Buell directly at a conference whether he thought LHO had a gun in the bag and shot the president. He said no on both counts. Also, he said the shooting sequence was pow…… pow-pow. Like many witnesses, he said the last shot came right on top of the second one. Too fast for a bolt action Carcano. So there’s that.
 

Edited January 21, 2023 by Michaleen Kilroy

[Tom Gram]

17 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

I haven't looked at the ROKC thread and don't intend to, but I am familiar with the Bill Randle / Willy Randall issue. It all adds up to a big zero for me. I've seen all sorts of crazy speculation that Wesley was either the original patsy or a backup patsy, Bill was part of the plot, the entire Randle household was somehow involved, etc., etc. It strikes me of nonsense of the first magnitude.

Bill's obituary from 2014 (Linnie lived to 2012 and was a Licensed Vocational Nurse) indicates he had been a deacon of the First Baptist Church since 1955. He was a humble woodworker. This doesn't make him a saint, but the blithe willingness of CTers to impugn the integrity and besmirch the reputations of people like Ruth Paine and Bill and Linnie Randle is to me one of the most despicable aspects of the Conspiracy Game.

I've also previously pointed out how many of these people lived until 2012 or 2014, yet those who so willingly impugn their integrity on the basis of obscure references in obscure documents from 1963 or 1964 never seem to have made any effort to contact them. Conspiracy "research," indeed.

 

There were several efforts that I know of to contact Bill Randle. I don’t think he ever granted an interview, and I’m pretty sure he refused to answer any questions to anyone about the assassination. 

Attempting to transform the legitimate investigation of contradictory statements and evidence into “a blithe willingness by CTers to impugn the integrity and besmirch the reputations” of poor innocent people is just a lazy emotional appeal, Lance. Bill Randle told a completely different story than the two motel managers who reported him to the FBI. What about the Thompsons? Why should the reputations of this poor Austin couple be besmirched? 

Which do you think is more likely, a motel manager and his wife making up a story about overhearing Bill say, specifically, that he was personally acquainted with Oswald and that he’d heard rumors that JFK would be assassinated if he came do Dallas over the VA Offices being moved out of Dallas (that’s pretty damn specific) - and calling the FBI immediately to report it; or Bill denying he said those things to cover his own ass and distance himself from the accused assassin? 

You are reverting to the go-to lone assassin advocate tactic of ridiculing anything even remotely critical of the official story as some looney conspiracy theory to avoid having to deal with problematic evidence. If we had a full record of the Secret Service checking out the Willie Randle lead and determining it was B.S. that’d be one thing and I’d be fully on board here, but we don’t.

Instead, to accept that we’ve been told the full story about Mr. Randle, we must accept that: 1.) the Dallas Secret Service were so incompetent that they’d mix up Linnie Mae’s husband with her brother for almost a week after the assassination; 2.) they’d go so far as to investigate Bill as a potential accomplice and purchaser of part of the murder weapon, in California, without checking out the original hearsay lead and interviewing the sources of that lead in Irving; 3.) Bill was telling the whole truth when interviewed by the SS on the 28th, when there is nothing even close to a good reason to believe him over the motel manager and his wife; 4.) Bill and Berry Caster drove straight to an anonymous job in Austin on the 22nd - a three hour drive from Dallas - and subsequently checked into a motel at 7pm, but not a single investigator in the entire US government was interested in verifying or even asking Bill, Berry, or anyone else what he was doing or where he was prior to that time. 

If you were investigating the assassination of the President, would you really be so credulous to accept all of the above at face value, or would you think it might be wise to dig a just a little bit deeper into a guy who shared a home with two of the most important witnesses in the entire case? You have credible evidence from two corroborative witnesses that this guy lied to the Secret Service about knowing Oswald, amongst other things, and you have reports from the neighborhood that he may have driven Oswald to work. What would you do next? 

Edited January 21, 2023 by Tom Gram

[Joseph McBride]

There's a lot of intended time-wasting on

this forum now by trolls or hardcore Warren

Commission adherents (whether they are sincere or disinformation agents) who want to endlessly

rehash the old "so-called evidence" (as Oswald

called it) while ignoring subsequent research

that proves the official story false. I would

suggest people not getting bogged down

in pointless and tedious arguments of this kind. That's

what the lone-nut crowd want, to distract

us from serious ongoing research.

Edited January 21, 2023 by Joseph McBride

[Charles Blackmon]

1 hour ago, Joseph McBride said:

There's a lot of intended time-wasting on

this forum now by trolls or hardcore Warren

Commission adherents (whether they are sincere or disinformation agents) who want to endlessly

rehash the old "so-called evidence" (as Oswald

called it) while ignoring subsequent research

that proves the official story false. I would

suggest people not getting bogged down

in pointless and tedious arguments of this kind. That's

what the lone-nut crowd want, to distract

us from serious ongoing research.

I doubt most are sincere, which leaves the other possibility. If they were sincere, they would have better things to do with their lives.

[Guest]

On 1/20/2023 at 6:08 PM, Joseph McBride said:

disinformation agents

Bye

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Guest]

Bye

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Guest]

On 1/21/2023 at 5:49 AM, Lance Payette said:

 

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Gil Jesus]

The Paper "Gunsack" was made by the Dallas Police in the shipping room of the TSBD on the afternoon of November 22, 1963 after Oswald was in custody.

The markings on the tape were the same as the markings from the tape dispenser in the shipping room. If Oswald took the paper home with him, did he take the tape and dispenser as well ? How could he have done that without anyone knowing ?

The paper on the "gunsack" matched the paper that was on the shipping table on the afternoon of the 22nd.

The tape on the "gunsack" matched the tape that was in the tape dispenser in the shipping room on the afternoon of the 22nd.

The Paper "Gunsack" was made by the Dallas Police in the shipping room of the TSBD on the afternoon of November 22, 1963 after Oswald was in custody. They made the "gunsack" with the paper and tape that was available, then took samples from the same roll and tape.

By doing that they were trying to match the paper and tape from the "gunsack" to the paper and tape from the TSBD ( so they thought ). What they didn't know was that all of the rolls of paper were not the same and all of the rolls of tape were not the same so what they were actually doing was matching the paper and tape on the "gunsack" to the TSBD ON THE AFTERNOON OF THE ASSASSINATION.

https://gil-jesus.com/the-bag-job/

[Pete Mellor]

Basic facts seem like lone-nut theory killers to me!