When and Where Did the Training Take Place?

[Paul Cummings]

4 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Larry,

Like a bad penny.

haha *couldn't resist* 😄

I got to wondering last night if the training took place overseas, (Nicaragua or Guatemala maybe?), or if it was domestic (Florida or New Orleans?)

Steve Thomas

 

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, Larry Hancock said:

an infantry ambush...

the tactical team had a few weeks notice  in regard to a mission but that they were then isolated, transported and put under strict control in the Dallas area while all elements were finalized and rehearsed...

...its the small scale, special operations with highly trained people that actually work...

Larry,

I like your logic.

To any suggestion that they should have used automatic rifles, I'd only say that they tried that against DeGaulle at Petit-Clamart In August, 1962. What, something like 160 bullets fired and nobody got killed.  In photograrhy terms, they call that "spray and pray".

That's why I don't think any Petit-Clamart people were involved in JFK.

I was going to ask a secondary question and ask if the actual shooters were given advanced notice of who the precise target was.

They might not have known until the last minute, if even then.

Steve Thomas

 

[Adam Johnson]

Heres another thing to consider, what if the ambush plan had one overall coordinator,  but 3 or 4 teams of shooters that were told where they had to be, each team had no contact with the other shooting teams, didnt know any of the other team members and where only given a rough guideline as to where the other shooting teams would be so they could not wander from their allocated firing region. 

I would imagine each individual team would train for their assignment knowing only the distance they would have to target and the direction and angle the target would be travelling thru their teams field of fire. They could train anywhere, come to Dallas 24-36 hours prior to 12:30 Nov 22nd and reconnoitre the access and egress from the firing position chosen, but importantly also reconfirm the firing distance and angles they were told they had to the target and be able to make adjustments if necessary. 

Personally i wouldn't want my shooting team, sitting around in Dallas or even 100 miles away somewhere together for 3,4 or 5 days waiting to do the job. I would bring the teams together for practise for 24 hours together about 7 to 10 days before the event then disband them. They would each get the call and be told where to assemble no more than 36 hours prior to the assassination.

I would imagine teams would attempt to have all team members exit the scene together if possible and then disband from each other once it was clear they had gotten out of the immediate area successfully. Team sizes could range from 1 - 4/5 people. 

Unless the coordinator stipulated what weapon and calibre rifle to use, you would expect to see different impact effects of hits on the target.

Regards,

A.J

[Larry Hancock]

That seems perfectly reasonable to me, the only thing I can offer with any certainty is that team members were in Dallas doing assessments and collecting details for the attack a week to two in advance.  Exactly where and how they prepped the shooters on their positions and gave them ranges and markers is a separate question.  

As a side note I don't think there was any effort to disguise multiple weapons being in use since the whole MO was for it to be a multi-shooter, attack pointing towards Cuba.  The hoops that had to be jumped through to conceal what the planners would have assumed to be obvious are what keeps us all perpetually running in different directions.

[Adam Johnson]

I've always wondered why Elm St had several 1 yard yellow sections painted on the curb along the southern side of the street. In other photos around main, houston, commerce and east down Elm Street none are visible in photos i looked from that day.

A.J

[Ron Bulman]

If we give Hank Alberelli any credibility, maybe some practiced in Spain?  Coordinated via Harvey in Rhome, and others.  Someone cased the TSBD at least a week or month or two or more before, planted the rifle beforehand, had access.  Explored ingress and egress, then showed participants such a few days before, Sunday Morning?

[Sandy Larsen]

5 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

 

 

How do the shooters get inside buildings for practice? Without those who work there getting suspicious? How about when it's the real thing and they're holding rifles?

It seems like the plotters need to have some cooperation from building dwellers for the shooters who will be inside.

Even those on roofs have to to get in and out through the buildings.

 

 

[Gil Jesus]

22 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

When and Where did the training for the JFKA take place?

Certain things needed to be set up beforehand:

Staging and Logistics- food, transportation, lodging, maps

Sight lines - enfilade and triangulation of fire, wind and elevation, wind and elevation

Exfiltration - escape routes

Anybody have any ideas?

Steve Thomas

 

My guess is New Orleans in the summer of 63. I believe that the training camp was near Lake Ponchartrain and when the FBI broke up that camp, it moved to Mexico, out of the reach of the Bureau.

Hence, after trying unsuccessfully to infiltrate the training camp via Carlos Bringuier, Oswald decided to take a trip to Mexico, where he was poorly impersonated at the Cuban Consulate and Russian Embassy.

I believe that the assassination was being planned under the cover of a second invasion of Cuba. I believe this because there's NO WAY the Kennedys would have been planning to invade Cuba or allow others to do so in late '63. The diplomatic fallout from an invasion after Kennedy promised the Russians during the Missile Crisis he would not do so, not only would destroy the Test Ban Treaty, but once the Russians saw that Kennedy had lied to them, you'd never them to the bargaining table ever again.

Once given, I don't believe the Kennedys would have gone back on their word and supported an invasion.

I also find it interesting that once the President was dead, the second invasion of Cuba was dead as well.

The CIA would have no problem determining escape routes thanks to maps provided by the U.S. government, which designed and built Dealey Plaza in 1940 as a WPA project. My guess is that those maps would be available through the US Army Corps of Engineers.

That's all just a guess.

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, Gil Jesus said:

My guess is New Orleans in the summer of 63. I believe that the training camp was near Lake Ponchartrain and when the FBI broke up that camp, it moved to Mexico, out of the reach of the Bureau.

Hence, after trying unsuccessfully to infiltrate the training camp via Carlos Bringuier, Oswald decided to take a trip to Mexico, where he was poorly impersonated at the Cuban Consulate and Russian Embassy.

I believe that the assassination was being planned under the cover of a second invasion of Cuba. I believe this because there's NO WAY the Kennedys would have been planning to invade Cuba or allow others to do so in late '63. The diplomatic fallout from an invasion after Kennedy promised the Russians during the Missile Crisis he would not do so, not only would destroy the Test Ban Treaty, but once the Russians saw that Kennedy had lied to them, you'd never them to the bargaining table ever again.

Once given, I don't believe the Kennedys would have gone back on their word and supported an invasion.

I also find it interesting that once the President was dead, the second invasion of Cuba was dead as well.

The CIA would have no problem determining escape routes thanks to maps provided by the U.S. government, which designed and built Dealey Plaza in 1940 as a WPA project. My guess is that those maps would be available through the US Army Corps of Engineers.

That's all just a guess.

Gil,

That's not a bad guess. I can envision that when the FBI started cracking down on the exiles in July, training would have moved offshore, away from prying eyes.

You wrote, "I believe that the assassination was being planned under the cover of a second invasion of Cuba."

I'm reminded of Operation Northwoods. There's not too much difference between the terrorist act of blowing up a commercial airliner and blaming it on Cuba, and assassinating the American President and blaming it on Cuba.

Steve Thomas

[Ron Bulman]

On 9/7/2023 at 12:12 PM, Larry Hancock said:

Mike as I recall it, yes the report was an FBI report discussing something that had come from DPD but the actual DPD report never surfaced - sort of the same situation as the Frazier polygraph.  I don't know how it could have been debunked without the original report - which was supposedly just a call in to DPD from an unnamed citizen.  For all we know that could have been just a test, a hoax, a mistake etc.   

This is bugging me.  I remember a slightly different story.  But I can't remember from where.  I don't think it was on the internet but in a book, but which one?  I looked a little bit in Crossfire and Radical Right, as it's kind of a general subject, hard to pin down in an index, no luck.

I thought I'd read of a DPD officer on patrol 2-3-4 days (a week or two?) before the assassination cruising through Dealy Plaza one evening noticing men on the grassy knoll?  Leaning over the picket fence? Acting like they were holding/pointing a rifle(s)?

Suspicious enough he merged onto main, turned around and came back to investigate, but they were gone when he got there.

I guess no one else remembers anything like this?

[Gil Jesus]

4 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

This is bugging me.  I remember a slightly different story.  But I can't remember from where.  I don't think it was on the internet but in a book, but which one?  I looked a little bit in Crossfire and Radical Right, as it's kind of a general subject, hard to pin down in an index, no luck.

I thought I'd read of a DPD officer on patrol 2-3-4 days (a week or two?) before the assassination cruising through Dealy Plaza one evening noticing men on the grassy knoll?  Leaning over the picket fence? Acting like they were holding/pointing a rifle(s)?

Suspicious enough he merged onto main, turned around and came back to investigate, but they were gone when he got there.

I guess no one else remembers anything like this?

Wednesday, November 20th. A Dallas police patrol going through Dealey Plaza allegedly observed men on the grassy knoll with rifles and it looked like they were engaged in "target practice". By the time they turned around and came back, the men were gone.

Note that this is the same day that Warren Caster brought two rifles into the Texas School Book Depository to "show" to the employees there.

It was also the same day that Ralph Yates allegedly picked up a hitchhiker carrying what he said were "curtain rods" and dropped him at the intersection of Houston and Elm.

Seems to me that there were a lot of rifles in and around Dealey Plaza on Wednesday, the 20th.

[Steve Thomas]

8 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

I thought I'd read of a DPD officer on patrol 2-3-4 days (a week or two?) before the assassination cruising through Dealy Plaza one evening noticing men on the grassy knoll?  Leaning over the picket fence? Acting like they were holding/pointing a rifle(s)?

Suspicious enough he merged onto main, turned around and came back to investigate, but they were gone when he got there.

I guess no one else remembers anything like this?

Ron,

 

I was going to bring that up, but others did before I could, so I didn't mention it.

I thought I'd seen a Report in the old DPD Archives, but I don't know that ir made it over when the Archives were transferred to the Portal to Texas History at the University of North Texas Libraries.

Steve Thomas

[Greg Wagner]

Mrs Hernandez and Mrs Vargas may have witnessed related activity the day before: https://gregwagnersite.files.wordpress.com/2019/06/rifle-sighting-on-november-21-1963.pdf

One interesting aspect to ponder regarding the planning is the timing. The TSBD lunch break was from 12:00 to 12:45. The assassination occurred at 12:30 and I believe it was running a few minutes late by the time it reached Dealey Plaza. This means the plan was for JFK to pass by the TSBD near the midpoint of the lunch break; the exact time when the probability of encountering workers on the upper floors would be at its lowest. The planned timing conveniently offers a TSBD operation the best chance for success. Is this evidence of a "guiding hand" at work in the trip planning? Or just one more incredibly convenient coincidence?

[Michael Crane]

On 9/7/2023 at 7:13 PM, Adam Johnson said:

I've always wondered why Elm St had several 1 yard yellow sections painted on the curb along the southern side of the street. In other photos around main, houston, commerce and east down Elm Street none are visible in photos i looked from that day.

A.J

Turn coat Gary Mack told me that it was to help public transportation determine where the curb is at about 15 years ago when I asked.

When it clearly looks like a kill zone.

 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Michael Crane

[Joe Bauer]

1 hour ago, Greg Wagner said:

Mrs Hernandez and Mrs Vargas may have witnessed related activity the day before: https://gregwagnersite.files.wordpress.com/2019/06/rifle-sighting-on-november-21-1963.pdf

 

Highly recommend opening up the link above and reading this three person eyewitness account of a rifle exchange between two men just below and West of the Texas School Book Depository bldg. the day before 11,22,1963.

The three women were friends who worked together in the same sports wear business close by.

So, with this account we have " 4 " total reporting rifles seen and/or handed off in the area of the Grassy Knoll and right under and just West of the TXSBD the day before and even the day of the JFKA.

The men seen acting like they were target practicing account, the Hernandez, Vargas and Salinas account, the Julia Ann Mercer account and the Ed Hoffman account.

And add on the bringing in of rifles into the TXSBD building itself by a couple of Oswald's co-workers wanting to show them off to each other.

That's a lot of rifles seen in that one specific area in just a short time span right before and the day of JFK's murder.

You'd think there was a gun show going on there.