Jeff Carter Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 The results of the election are not officially finalized until January 6. All the legal machinations now occurring were telegraphed as a strategy months ago. Dennis is correct, the MSM is promoting hysteria and seriously mis-reporting the Constitutional framework through which presidential elections are resolved. Here is a sober, academic description of the legal strategies at play placed in context of a similar deadlock in 1876. The author determines Trump’s chances as about 20%. https://nationalinterest.org/feature/donald-trumps-stealthy-road-victory-172235 Again, the legal battles ensuing were anticipated months ago by both sides, and strategies gamed out through the summer. So hysterical MSM articles about Trump “clinging to power” or requiring US Marshalls to remove him are not only seriously premature, they seem designed to instill fearful confusion and further divide the populace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W. Niederhut Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Dennis Berube said: First, stop watching CNN. I have to agree with Robert about the reliance of this forum on the MSM. To me, it is a grave mistake in analysis to view the MSM narratives about major political events as anything other than propaganda. This stance has been vindicated time and time again and shouldn't require an explanation. Additionally, I believe it is a mistake to view Trump as the sole fascist. American fascism cannot work on the German/Italian model with a strong leader. Here, it would have to be a puppet ruling with oligarchical support because corporate power is too strong to allow a leader that isn't in their pocket. This is already close to what we have had for a long time. Trump will be gone in a short time regardless of this election, but the laws, rights, and legal precedents that are produced/reduced in this era could possibly go on for quite awhile, especially with the frightening censorship and constant propaganda that the "left" has seemingly embraced. It may be the Trump forces getting hit today, but the target is far more fluid than the precedent/capability if gone unchecked. To further the point, the Patriot Act... Dennis, The N-azi regime that subverted the Weimar Republic was, in fact, strongly supported by the military-industrial oligarchy. The military-industrial oligarchs viewed the Nazis as allies against socialism. And there are many other realistic parallels between Trumpism and Naziism. 1) A strong party alliance with the police and ex-military street militias. 2) A powerful propaganda establishment and relentless attack on the opposition "Lugenspresse." 3) Staged rallies in crowded venues. 4) Vilification of minority groups and foreigners. 5) An appeal to blood, soil, and Making Deutschland Great Again. Edited November 11, 2020 by W. Niederhut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bauer Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, W. Niederhut said: Dennis, The poopoo regime that subverted the Weimar Republic was, in fact, strongly supported by the military-industrial oligarchy. The military-industrial oligarchs viewed the Nazis as allies against socialism. And there are many other realistic parallels between Trumpism and Naziism. 1) A strong party alliance with the police and ex-military street militias. 2) A powerful propaganda establishment and relentless attack on the opposition "Lugenspresse." 3) Staged rallies in crowded venues. 4) Vilification of minority groups and foreigners. 5) An appeal to blood, soil, and Making Deutschland Great Again. The similarities are clearly real beyond debate. Edited November 11, 2020 by Joe Bauer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 Fox News now says ‘we’re just not sure’ if Joe Biden will be next president By David Edwards November 11, 2020 https://www.rawstory.com/2020/11/fox-news-now-says-were-just-not-sure-if-joe-biden-will-be-next-president/ “One thing is that if they do manage to prolong this process, we start to get into December,” (John) Roberts asserted. “There comes a time when these electors have to be seated to vote on who will become president of the United States. And I’m told that the anger out there in these red states is so deep and so palpable, the GOP legislators may have a difficult time seating Biden electors when it comes down to putting in place that process for the vote on December 14th.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Two_of_the_United_States_Constitution#Clause_4:_Election_day “In an indirect popular vote, it is the names of the candidates who are on the ballot to be elected. Most states do not put the names of the electors on the ballot.[6] It is generally understood by the voters and the electors themselves that they are the representative "stand-ins" for the candidates and are expected to cast their electoral college ballots for the president and vice president who appeared on the ballot. The actual electors being voted for are usually selected by the candidate's party. There have been a few cases where some electors have refused to vote for the designated candidate, termed a faithless elector. Many states have mandated in law that electors shall cast their electoral college ballot for the designated presidential candidate.[6] The constitutionality of such mandates was established on July 6, 2020 by the Supreme Court of the United States.” I don't see how a State Legislature could block the Electors in their State from meeting. It doesn't seem that the Legislature has any role in how and where the Electors meet. The Electors transmit their votes directly to the U.S. Congress. Picking a state at random. Indiana's Election Division sets out the procedure for how and when the State's Electors meet to cast their ballots. I imagine the other states have a similar process. The Electors meet in the House of Representatives, but the Legislature has no role to play. https://www.in.gov/sos/elections/files/Presidential_Elector_Listing_and_Statistics.pdf “What happens after the presidential election in November? How and when do the electors assemble and cast their ballots? After election day, each county sends its presidential vote totals to the Secretary of State in Indianapolis. It can take several weeks after the election for the final version of all these county returns to arrive. When all the county votes have been received (and any errors or omissions corrected), the Secretary of State certifies to the Governor the final, official returns for the presidential elector candidates. The Governor then signs a "Certificate of Ascertainment." This document officially appoints the winning presidential electors to serve as Indiana's members of the Electoral College. Three copies of this document are immediately sent to the National Archives in Washington. On the first Monday after the second Wednesday in December, Indiana's electors meet at 10 a.m., Indianapolis time, in the chamber of the House of Representatives in the State House. After an invocation, the Presentation of the Colors by the Indiana National Guard, the recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance, singing of the National Anthem,and any welcoming remarks by state officials, the Certificate of Ascertainment and the roll call of the electors are read. The electors who are present then take their oath of office. What would happen if the Governor refuses to sign the “Certificate of Ascertainment”? As required by federal law, copies of the Certificate of Ascertainment and the Certificate of Votes Cast are sent to the Vice-President (as President of the United States Senate), to the National Archives, to the Chief Judge of the Southern District Court of Indiana (the federal courts), and to the Indiana Secretary of State. Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk Gallaway Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 (edited) 12 hours ago, Jeff Carter said: The results of the election are not officially finalized until January 6. All the legal machinations now occurring were telegraphed as a strategy months ago. Dennis is correct, the MSM is promoting hysteria and seriously mis-reporting the Constitutional framework through which presidential elections are resolved. Here is a sober, academic description of the legal strategies at play placed in context of a similar deadlock in 1876. The author determines Trump’s chances as about 20%. https://nationalinterest.org/feature/donald-trumps-stealthy-road-victory-172235 Again, the legal battles ensuing were anticipated months ago by both sides, and strategies gamed out through the summer. So hysterical MSM articles about Trump “clinging to power” or requiring US Marshalls to remove him are not only seriously premature, they seem designed to instill fearful confusion and further divide the populace. Jeff, you can find this out in a number of sources, it's not sacred information, and as you said, it has been telegraphed for quite awhile. You yourself put out a similar article (one state, one vote). Remember? a couple of months ago. As far as the "MSM hysteria", you always see MSM hysteria. I think they're being pretty cool for now, just as I am. There's probably more hysteria here, from what I see. But the MSM is picking up the narrative that there is no precedent for a challenger winning by such a wide margin in both the popular and electoral votes and having an incumbent President contest the election. To give you an historic example, Bush Vs. Gore involved a vote count of 537 votes in Florida. The vote differential in Pennsylvania is 100 times that, and counting! Take Georgia, 30 times that and counting! Take Arizona 30 ties that! Take Michigan, where Trump's litigating , 300 times that! Even though it's commonly attempted here on the forum. You can't just pull something out of your ass, and make it stick, Jeff. Trump has to make a case that 1000's of votes were stolen. Where can he really begin to do that? Even if he could make a case somehow for Georgia and Arizona, and turn that around. It still doesn't matter. He still loses! I would say the reason Mitch Mc Connell isn't giving in can be attribute to one thing. Politics and his own self interest. He thinks Trump is an asset to carry into the Georgia Senate run offs on Jan 5th. He figures he still has time, and he'll put the nation through whatever. He may make a consolation to Biden, saying because we can't know for sure whose going to be President, he may favor Biden getting important briefings he would need as President to try to look even handed, but it's obvious what he's doing. Edited November 12, 2020 by Kirk Gallaway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Andrews Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 (edited) The Guardian on "various imagined dark scenarios, perhaps involving renegade state legislatures" in the red states: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/11/can-donald-trump-stay-in-office-second-term-president-coup Edited November 11, 2020 by David Andrews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Douglas Caddy Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 [I wish to associate myself with the opinions expressed in this article.] The US was lucky to get Trump – Biden may pave the way for a more competent autocrat By George Monbiot https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/nov/11/us-trump-biden-president-elect?fbclid=IwAR1Gs3qm-rEyPn271Zaw92XS00ocHC4BaiST0-fzeIOPW4CWgQwcraa8VIM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W. Niederhut Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, Jeff Carter said: The results of the election are not officially finalized until January 6. All the legal machinations now occurring were telegraphed as a strategy months ago. Dennis is correct, the MSM is promoting hysteria and seriously mis-reporting the Constitutional framework through which presidential elections are resolved. Here is a sober, academic description of the legal strategies at play placed in context of a similar deadlock in 1876. The author determines Trump’s chances as about 20%. https://nationalinterest.org/feature/donald-trumps-stealthy-road-victory-172235 Again, the legal battles ensuing were anticipated months ago by both sides, and strategies gamed out through the summer. So hysterical MSM articles about Trump “clinging to power” or requiring US Marshalls to remove him are not only seriously premature, they seem designed to instill fearful confusion and further divide the populace. The issue is that Trump's only technically "legal" path to an Electoral College "victory" is for Republican-controlled state legislators to appoint false electors to the EC-- i.e., in defiance of the actual votes of their states' constituents. Hence, the current, frantic efforts by Trump and his RNC goons to create an illusion of voter fraud, (which could be used as an ersatz justification for the selection of false electors.) So the focus in the M$M on the Trump/RNC disinformation about alleged election fraud is a good thing. It's not "hysterical," but entirely rational. We need to debunk the Trump/RNC nonsense that could be used by dishonest state legislators to justify their appointment of false electors. Edited November 12, 2020 by W. Niederhut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W. Niederhut Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 After Biden Win, Right-Wing Sites Continue to Push False Vote-Fraud ClaimsMany publications have refused to acknowledge the president-elect. Casting doubt on the integrity of the vote “has been a fundamental part of Trump’s election strategy,” said Whitney Phillips of Syracuse University. www.nytimes.com/2020/11/11/business/media/right-wing-sites-false-vote-fraud-claims.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Andrews Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Robert Wheeler said: Real renegade. “The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Places of chusing Senators.” U.S. Const. art. I, § 4, cl. 1. Variations are permitted, but when was the last time they were practiced? When Aaron Burr was alive? I should have been more clear: I posted that article to answer Steve Thomas's post on red state electoral seating problems. Edited November 12, 2020 by David Andrews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stevens Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 6 hours ago, Joe Bauer said: This election more than past presidential ones has piqued my interest in and awareness of the complexities of voter demographics including gender, ethnicity, age, income, education, religion, urban versus rural residency, geographical residency, feelings regards candidate morality, race, the economy etc. Seeing and contemplating the actual factual demographic numbers in this election presents an American political mind set reality that is quite different than even I thought I understood. Just one demographic aspect ( I will add more to this post later ) that has startled me in my perception of Trump's base of support was the recent list posted here showing the breakdown of the voting numbers based on gender ethnicity. White women in this country favored Trump over Biden by 12 percentage points! 55% to 43%. I am still shocked at this reality. Of course white males favored Trump equally. This dual female, male white vote fact reveals that if white Americans only had the singular power to elect our President, Donald Trump would be elected in a landslide and probably given more than two terms. It also means that a significant majority of white Americans believe that Trump has done a good job! And his moral character, obsessive lying, encouraging extremist right wing and racist view groups and/or his reported dealings with corrupt others throughout most of his adult life are not issues of concern for them. This is a head shaking, wake up call realization for me. I am trying to understand what this majority white America Trump support mind set is based on? How has it been shaped and so deeply imbedded. What is it born of? I have always felt that 50 years of 50 million listener audience right wing radio talk programming ( brainwashing ) with a dozen personalities promoting the angry white mind set 24/7 on the radio airways versus hardly any left wing influence has helped shape this deep left hating and fearing sentiment. Rush Limbaugh has spent the last 40 years demonizing the liberal mind set and linking the Democratic party to this boogie man fear mongering. Limbaugh has always loved to share his cynical comedic takes on this boogie man/left wing threat. He's always been a wanna be stand up comedian/ funny disc jockey at heart. Incessantly using scary and derogatory and humorously insulting words, labels and phrases in his anectodal tirades. Black welfare queens, commie sympathizers, California queer liberalism, unpatriotic flag burners, commie minded college professors brainwasing their students into hating America, illegal immigrant take overs, and on and on. I still think this massive 50 year long national radio right wing promoting, left wing demonizing brainwashing propaganda campaign has a lot to do with white American's left and liberal hating and fearing mind set. However, this election I honestly thought white female Americans had actually seen the disliking and disgusted light regards Trump especially in his insulting and demeaning sexual aggressiveness, attitude, comments ( "grab em by the pu$$y" ) and even predatory history towards women as documented by many victims ( E. Jean Carroll rape charge, Stormy Daniels, Karen McDougal, twenty others in the book "All The President's Women - The Making Of A Sexual Predator" ) who were actually brave enough to put their real names in widely published accounts of Trump's abhorrent behavior in this way. Topped by Trump's recent public pronouncement of sympathy towards jailed Jeffrey Epstein child sex predator victim procuror Ghislaine Maxwell. Apparently all this sexual immoral behavior history on Trump's part means nothing to the majority of white American women! What issue could be more important to white American women in shaping their favorable versus unfavorable views on Donald Trump than his well documented history of sexual predator behavior toward women ( them ?) The economy? Race? Illegal immigration? Anti-abortion? What? What do these Trump favoring white American women tell their daughters and granddaughters who may ask them - Mom (grandma) why would you support a proven sexual predator as our president? Again, the actual factual demographic numbers of this election have blown away my false logic perception in this realm of Trump support understanding. White American women love this guy more than hate or even dislike him! Roseanne Barr is truly and sadly the ideological Trump loving poster person of our white women majority! What a reality wake up call! Personally a very disturbing one imo. I'm honestly a little more disturbed that people just don't seem to get it or see it until afterwards. Just like the first election when a good portion of people sat around scratching their heads wondering how this could have happened when all the polls said something different....When general sentiment said something different...When logic, common sense and the basic human decency we all expect most others to have said something different...America still elected Donald Trump as President. While, without the exception of some extraordinary events, he will not go on to be President again, the same head scratching and general confusion over his support still exists this time around. I'm surprised that he lost. I expected him to win again and while I did think it would be closer than the last election I did expect him to win. I've mentioned it before, but I work in a large manufacturing plant and I live in the South (maybe being in the South creates a different perspective). On a daily basis I come into contact with literally hundreds of Trump supporters. I have heard literally every last one of these talking points and I literally hear at least one of your quoted items below mentioned on a daily basis. (I'm only emphasizing these words to drive home the point that I am not exaggerating or embellishing.) Quote Black welfare queens, commie sympathizers, California queer liberalism, unpatriotic flag burners, commie minded college professors brainwasing their students into hating America, illegal immigrant take overs, and on and on. The Trump supporters I've encountered truly believe Trump is sent by god to save America from ____(fill in the blank with one/all of your items above). Anything said about Trump by the godless left is just a product of the Deep State sent to attack Trump because he is shaking up their institutions, draining the swamp, and saving our children. Again, the above is not just some putdown, or colloquial talking point, this is literally what these people believe. They aren't explaining why they supported a sexual abuser to their children because he didn't do it, it's all lies invented by the left and the Deep State. Look at Trump's wives, look at his money. Do you really think he'd have to assault women for it? Jon Stewart best summarized why Trump was elected years ago and the exact sentiment holds true today... Quote I don't necessarily believe that a full-court press on his "untruthedness" would necessarily change it. I mean...he was voted for, but I do think he is generally the conclusion to years of...he makes sense if you view it through the prism of talk radio. I like to drive, and...so I listen to talk radio and it is 24-7 of "your country is being taken away from you." As far as I can tell the conservative side or on the right side, they feel an ownership over America. They are the stewards of America....Republicans, conservatives love America, they just hate like 50% of the people living in it..... ...In some ways it's a natural reaction to fear. Now, if you have that fear stoked on a daily basis and at an incredibly high pitch...and this is not "we really need to do something about this country, we're facing some difficult problems." This is "you are run by a tyrant, he is going to take away your rights, we are falling, there are rapists and murderers at the border coming to kill you." If that's what you've been fed and that's what you're buying into Donald Trump makes more sense than anybody else out there because he's going "great, let's build a wall...the Visigoths are at the gate let's build a xxxxing wall and not let..." It makes total sense. What wouldn't make sense, are the general Republican leadership going "there are Visigoths at the wall, they are here to kill you...let's try and not pass a new budget resolution." Their rhetoric has never matched their action. Donald Trump is saying "oh, that's your rhetoric? Then yeah, let's build a wall." While I waited to get the text from Stewart above, I saw an article titled "White People Will Believe Anything...Except Facts." It had a few nuggets... Quote The idiotic belief that tens of thousands of poll workers got on a Zoom call and came up with a plan that outsmarted all the disparate elections systems software programmers, poll workers, vote counters, legislative bodies and voters is just the latest asinine assumption of white people. Quote They refused to accept that Barack Obama was born in the United States even when they saw his birth certificate but—with no proof whatsoever—insist that Donald Trump actually pays taxes. They believe Obama was only elected because he was Black but Trump’s election had nothing to do with whiteness—it was “economic anxiety.” Quote There is only one thing that explains why white folks figure the news is fake; the coronavirus is the flu; the CDC is composed of science fiction writers and Donald Trump is a good, honest Christian man who overcame a hardscrabble life as a multimillionaire son to reach the presidency through hard work, intelligence with no help from Russia: White people are dumb. To be fair, there is one other possible explanation. Perhaps—and I know this will sound like a crazy conspiracy theory—they refuse to acknowledge the existence of math, science, facts and truth because it suits their goals. What if their collective, selective ignorance was all a ruse that allows them to align with white supremacy without openly admitting it? What if white people are just racist? Nah... Only an idiot would believe that. https://www.theroot.com/white-people-will-believe-anything-except-facts-1845635274 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Bulman Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 Mind boggling. The right doesn't want to count military votes? https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/military-wife-who-found-zip-codes-on-gop-s-voter-fraud-list-says-accusation-made-without-any-basis-in-fact/ar-BB1aVcct?li=BBorjTa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Brancato Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said: The issue is that Trump's only technically "legal" path to an Electoral College "victory" is for Republican-controlled state legislators to appoint false electors to the EC-- i.e., in defiance of the actual votes of their states' constituents. Hence, the current, frantic efforts by Trump and his RNC goons to create an illusion of voter fraud, (which could be used as an ersatz justification for the selection of false electors.) So the focus in the M$M on the Trump/RNC disinformation about alleged election fraud is a good thing. It's not "hysterical," but entirely rational. We need to debunk the Trump/RNC nonsense that could be used by dishonest state legislators to justify their appointment of false electors. The constitutional right for state legislators to decide on a slate of electors was not meant to substitute for the will of the voters of that state. It’s an emergency proviso in the absence of a popular vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Bulman Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said: After Biden Win, Right-Wing Sites Continue to Push False Vote-Fraud ClaimsMany publications have refused to acknowledge the president-elect. Casting doubt on the integrity of the vote “has been a fundamental part of Trump’s election strategy,” said Whitney Phillips of Syracuse University. www.nytimes.com/2020/11/11/business/media/right-wing-sites-false-vote-fraud-claims.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage Regarding the latter part of this article, is fox news abandoning the chump? If so is that the impetus needed for an implosion necessary to subvert this right wing fake news that's impeding progress? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bauer Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 1 hour ago, Mark Stevens said: I'm honestly a little more disturbed that people just don't seem to get it or see it until afterwards. Just like the first election when a good portion of people sat around scratching their heads wondering how this could have happened when all the polls said something different....When general sentiment said something different...When logic, common sense and the basic human decency we all expect most others to have said something different...America still elected Donald Trump as President. While, without the exception of some extraordinary events, he will not go on to be President again, the same head scratching and general confusion over his support still exists this time around. I'm surprised that he lost. I expected him to win again and while I did think it would be closer than the last election I did expect him to win. I've mentioned it before, but I work in a large manufacturing plant and I live in the South (maybe being in the South creates a different perspective). On a daily basis I come into contact with literally hundreds of Trump supporters. I have heard literally every last one of these talking points and I literally hear at least one of your quoted items below mentioned on a daily basis. (I'm only emphasizing these words to drive home the point that I am not exaggerating or embellishing.) The Trump supporters I've encountered truly believe Trump is sent by god to save America from ____(fill in the blank with one/all of your items above). Anything said about Trump by the godless left is just a product of the Deep State sent to attack Trump because he is shaking up their institutions, draining the swamp, and saving our children. Again, the above is not just some putdown, or colloquial talking point, this is literally what these people believe. They aren't explaining why they supported a sexual abuser to their children because he didn't do it, it's all lies invented by the left and the Deep State. Look at Trump's wives, look at his money. Do you really think he'd have to assault women for it? Jon Stewart best summarized why Trump was elected years ago and the exact sentiment holds true today... While I waited to get the text from Stewart above, I saw an article titled "White People Will Believe Anything...Except Facts." It had a few nuggets... https://www.theroot.com/white-people-will-believe-anything-except-facts-1845635274 So well expressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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