David Josephs

This thread was referenced related to the tramps - thanks as always for your great posts with links. 16 years past. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1136#relPageId=154 Thinking aloud, it looks to me like "PAUL" is what the man signed and we have a jail guard "Fred Paul" from 1st platoon. I'd doubt they'd use first names so to me it makes some sense... and possibly with "all hands on deck" some officers stayed on past their shifts?? Maybe?

I seem to remember it was proven Hunt lied about where he was that day... In one of the panorama images of DP looking South across Elm (with someone who looks alot like Pablo Neruda seen on the grass as well as appearing in a number of photos in DP) Of course I could be completely wrong here... having looking at many images of Hunt I am more likely to believe this was him than the old Tramp. Yet as usual, it's all up for discussion and subjectivity

Thanks Joe... there are literally no letters from little Marge to her beloved son from ANY point in time in the WCR exhibits, only letters from him to her with first one mail stamped Sept 19, 1959 and the next, Aug 3, 1961. The overwhelming top three addressees: Robert Oswald, Mom, the American Embassy in Moscow... one would expect the Embassy letters to make their way to the CIA... and a defector - fake or real - would still be of interest... the CIA just lied about it being the point, yes?

If he did know beforehand, and agreed to sit in front of Kennedy, as a soldier wouldn't you rather have someone shoot the man behind you from the front and reduce the chance of being hit, as opposed to from the rear with you virtually directly in front of him? Nobody seems to say it, wouldn't he have been a bit p issed about almost dying whether he knew before OR after. Supreme loyalty to the cause (or fear) to tow the company line even after that.

The link is the source for my article on Warren Comm Doc 298 - the FBI's explanation of the assassination so accurate one not need go to Dealey Plaza to comprehend what occurred... (para-phrased) So yes, the Z-film. So when alteration is laid bare, like so many other deceptions, I'm pretty confident we'll see your 2, if not 3, sources of shots, as Dino told us so eloquently and Kellerman put bluntly "6-8 shots from 3 directions" "a flurry of shots"

And what is the definitive source of information on the timing of the shots when the WCR comes out? As opposed to this from January 1964 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10699

If the bullet continues on a downward trajectory it cannot exit the throat and hits the back of the front seat if the bullet was deflected upward by hitting bone and exits the throat, it cannot hit Connally. on a 25 degree downward trajectory What people said or not, who was controlling the autopsy, or even what they did simply no longer matters. They dug their own graves the moment the reports were published. The Evidence proves the Conspiracy. "the WC and HSCA confirmed the SBT". (image reversed). Specter's pointer is resting on the man's shoulder when the proposed hole is 5+ inches below the collar. Our man Ryberg shows the bullet descending thru JFK.... the rest is self-evident Hope you and yours are well..

no arguments here Jim. The Silly Bullet Theory has gone the way of Kellerman's pistol and the AR-15. As I don't care to bother with whatever their responses were, viewing members can decide for themselves. The images i posted and unanswerable questions asked make their "arguing" a worthless endeavor

You've chosen to ignore content by Gerry Down. Options For those who may be unaware, ignoring a member relieves you from having to read or deal with any of their posts unless you choose to. There is no greater happiness available related to certain members... I'm sure I'm on many of those lists

@Charles Blackmon @Paul Cummings I'm reminded of what Joe DiMaggio is quoted as saying when asked why he tried so hard on every play... The reason I play so hard is that somewhere out there is some kid who has never seen me play before, and I don't want to disappoint him. I do it for the lurkers who don't engage because of people like him. Who might think just because he posts here he has something to say. And to those who never saw me play before... Pointless, support-less LNer posts have infected the forums since there were forums... sometimes you need the stick instead of the carrot.

@Leslie Sharp You probably have this yet if not... I ordered Coup and look forward to getting into it asap. Interesting how the FBI provided an image which makes the SBT impossible... The "E" used an image of the wrong car

Uh, yeah, not so much. Difficulty in recreating the SBT is that it never happened, the bullet would need to rise by 11 degrees as it goes back to front after being shot from what you claim to be a 6th story building on a heavily downward trajectory. Humes was specific in that it supposedly did not hit anything hard on the way thru. JC's wound, after the bullet needs to rise by 11 degrees, as well as move right to left by 10 degrees; now switches to a downward angle of 25 degrees. A 6.5mm bullet would leave a 1/4 inch hole from front to back as well as greatly disturb the tissues and organs it passes... none of that happened. Looking at this WCR evidence and frame 222, @Gerry Down - explain how shooting from this angle and hitting JFK where they showed... the bullet rises to exit the throat and does not exit his chest and hit the back of the front seat?

I have no doubt getting GW in as his VP almost sealed his fate. An ex Intelligence agency Director running a major world power? And of course there is Prescott Bush, his dad, which is where I'd bet these relationships began. Take care

Thanks Chris... I do need to ask, since we are talking about the knoll area... The black couple that was said to have been sitting on the bench behind the retaining wall and that threw down the pop bottle... why is it we do not see their heads above the retaining wall? There's the bench at the lower right... sitting there they both would have been obvious, no? Or is Sitzman fibbing? Sitzman: Some ran ... I mean ... I finally got back up to the alcove. There was bunches of people just swarming back there, and I think almost everybody on that hill ran back up that way. And another thing that I remember this day: there was a colored couple. I figure they were between 18 and 21, a boy and a girl, sitting on a bench, just almost, oh, parallel with me, on my right side, close to the fence. Thompson: In other words, between you and the fence, there's a tree right next to the ... Sitzman: There's a tree, and there's another part of the marble or concrete, whatever they call it, slab, fence, whatever they call it, between that and the wooden fence. Thompson: Which direction was the bench facing when you ... Sitzman: It was facing towards the street. Thompson: Towards the street. Parallel? Downstreet? Facing forward? Sitzman: And they were eating their lunch, 'cause they had little lunch sacks, and they were drinking coke. The main reason I remember 'em is, after the last shot I recall hearing and the car went down under the triple underpass there, I heard a crash of glass, and I looked over there, and the kids had thrown down their coke bottles, just threw them down and just started running towards the back and I ... Of course, I don't see anything unusual in that because everybody else was running that way, 'cause when I look over on my left side, the people on the hill were all running back the same way too.

Keyvan explains it very well here Larry. Knowing something is there and not being able to access it is possible yet as we discuss in the linked thread... and you have mentioned, the numbers are not only wrong but there is no 104-10500 series at all, nor a 104-10385 series in the released database. Furthermore, I can't see how the FBI would have a report on these men so fast unless the rabbit hole is even deeper related to the tramps than we know. Not a big stretch I'd be much more concerned if the numbers came back in the correct format and there were still no docs appearing. DJ

Incredibly interesting Keyvan, thanks. When either of the giants scans the database and the meta data - are they also converting the document pages into XML for search-ability by word? And who was it that generated the meta data within the databases to begin with? I mean wouldn't whoever or whatever did this also need to convert images to words? Thanks. edit: all the files are pdfs. Does that make extracting the individual words easier? harder?

In support of Chris D. The Z film is the end result of very sophisticated process to remove, among other things, the "flurry of shots" which arrived at the limo as it was paused on Elm. And no, I'm not getting into that here or at this time... both Kellerman, and the Connally's tell us that Hill basically gets to the limo between the 2nd and 3rd shots - or the 3 shots they were allowed to acknowledge. The black blob as we've called it in this thread, covers the gapping hole at the right rear of his head as it does in numerous frames prior. (Cue the theatrics) Suddenly, “a terrifying noise erupted behind us.” From her spot on a jump seat, she turned back to look at the president just in time to see his hands fly up to his throat. Then, Nellie turned back to meet her husband’s eyes. John Connally had fought in World War II and was a hunter; he knew that sound had come from a gun, but it was too late. A second shot rang out, and Connally uttered what has become one of the most remembered lines of that day. “My God,” he cried, his rich, stentorian drawl taut with fear, “They’re going to kill us all!” Then he collapsed. The second bullet had hit him in the back.

Even though the file numbers are incorrect? There is not a single document with a 104-10500 prefix. Are you able to get at this data by using page source views... or any other way? Thanks for the great answer btw... the breadth of backgrounds here is so impressive... Each adding their own specialities to the mix. I'm immediately reminded of David Healy... (who is not in the members list anymore? - I hope he's ok) Cheers DJ

Yes yes... I am aware of those names along with Whitmeyer. I do believe @Steve Thomas did an amazing job identifying these men and the Lt Colonels... I hope Robert is here too. Those are important documents

@Paul Brancato I have to second Paul's concerns over important evidence which seems to reside with those who for some reason guard it. Lifton was famous for not sharing any of his source materials, even with those who opened their collections to him. Yes, I'm annoyed at reading this Evan. I guess the community members do not owe anything to anyone else yet one would hope that something like the potential sniper who shot JFK, with authenticated evidence placing that person in DP that day, is something worth open sourcing to this community for examination. Are you convinced this was the shooter?

In the research I have been doing over the last 2 years I am finding there are those who managed the DPD aspect of the cover-up were in at least 2 camps... The "Will Fritz always gets his man" camp and a "Military intelligence" camp. The latter being controlled from outside the department as you say... letting Ruby in to kill Oswald was a Fritz/Westbrook/Croy thing. It is Croy who puts the Tippit/Hidell wallet into Westbrook's hands. On the other hand there was an entire Military Intel contingency within the DPD along with an FBI-backed one. I'd agree the tramps were somehow directed by this faction and not the Fritz one. But why so overtly parade them? Was there any other news coverage of these men? If not, it would suggest the timing was much later in the day than acknowledged and I believe suggested by the change in the shadows as someone posted. If they were outside assets (with Lansdale allowed to walk past an officer with a rifle and right next to 3 men supposedly suspected of the assassination) why allow them to be photographed? Harkness says more tramps were removed from the train(s) than just these 3 - yet again, when? Who do you see as the force behind the Military faction - The Lt Colonels @Steve Thomas has brought to light?

If they haven't been released and are not in that database... how can there be meta data related to it and where in the database would that be so BARD could have found it? I know quite a bit about databases but not anywhere near that regarding meta tags and how SEARCH finds them. Thanks

If we can believe Chambers. Understood... that's why I said No to #2, I didn't see how one would affect the other.

So says you... and once again you are terribly wrong on each count.... I get you WISH there wasn't a conspiracy to cover-up the assassination by your posts and your .2% doubt... but there was... Notice the FBI memo was written during the autopsy... you actually think an FBI SA would admit to more bullets than Hoover allows? Kinda naive given they lied about not being in the morgue for over an hour since they were told never to let JFK out of their sight. As for the photos - how pedantic is "the ones we've seen" - you want to play that game have at it... kinda transparent though. "Ebersole and Custer both signed off". PEDANTIC and kinda pathetic. The HSCA is 1977... 14 years, not 30, 40 or 50 years. Ebersole most definitely messed with the x-rays and lied about his activities that night... I'm sorry that's lost on you. Pat - I am at a loss for why you maintain this view that the evidence we have is indicative of the event and the activities which followed... That you believe the words of the very men involved in the cover-up as gospel when we've proven over and over what a charade the autopsy was. I'm terribly sorry you feel it necessary to interject this dribble in a discussion about the details of a specific part of this cover-up... the most important aspect of the covering up of evidence was what they did to the medical evidence and you post here as if it were an honest accounting of what happened to our president. Shame on you. Dr. BADEN. Do you recall when you took the X rays in the sequence of taking X rays and you took the X rays initially before any incision was made in the body? Dr. EBERSOLE. That is right. Dr. BADEN. You took the head, chest, abdomen, extremities? Dr. EBERSOLE. The order was skull first, then chest, the trunk. Dr. BADEN. I see. When Colonel Finck came in these had already been taken? Dr. EBERSOLE. Yes, and repeated once. Dr. BADEN. Now when you say repeated, were X rays repeated after the autopsy had started? Do you have an independent recollection of that? Dr. EBERSOLE. The second group of X rays were taken either before the incision was made or very shortly thereafter. Dr. BADEN. Why did you take the two X rays of the pelvis that are similar? Were these taken at the same time or one later? Dr. EBERSOLE. I believe that represents the second go around. Dr. BADEN. One represents the second go around because there does appear to be fecal in the large intestines on both. Dr. EBERSOLE. Right. Dr. BADEN. The second go around was after the autopsy had been done. Dr. EBERSOLE. No, certainly the autopsy was not completed at the time of the second one. It would have possibly been started but all X rays with the exception of fragments were taken fairly early in the evening. Dr. PETTY. Then as I understand it there was a quandry where was the bullet and somebody suggested taking a second set of X rays. Dr. EBERSOLE. Yes. That suggestion came from a non- medical person, a Secret Service agent. Dr. PETTY. All right. So a second set of X rays were taken. Dr. EBERSOLE. Yes. Dr. PETTY. And, Mike, you say there were three of these that were taken later? Dr. BADEN. Yes. We have three. I believe eight. I will name them knowing the body partially eviscerated. Dr. PETTY. All right. Did anybody suggest to you or ask you to X ray the viscera that was removed between the first set of X rays and the second? Dr. EBERSOLE. No, sir. Dr. PETTY. All right.