David Josephs

In the research I have been doing over the last 2 years I am finding there are those who managed the DPD aspect of the cover-up were in at least 2 camps... The "Will Fritz always gets his man" camp and a "Military intelligence" camp. The latter being controlled from outside the department as you say... letting Ruby in to kill Oswald was a Fritz/Westbrook/Croy thing. It is Croy who puts the Tippit/Hidell wallet into Westbrook's hands. On the other hand there was an entire Military Intel contingency within the DPD along with an FBI-backed one. I'd agree the tramps were somehow directed by this faction and not the Fritz one. But why so overtly parade them? Was there any other news coverage of these men? If not, it would suggest the timing was much later in the day than acknowledged and I believe suggested by the change in the shadows as someone posted. If they were outside assets (with Lansdale allowed to walk past an officer with a rifle and right next to 3 men supposedly suspected of the assassination) why allow them to be photographed? Harkness says more tramps were removed from the train(s) than just these 3 - yet again, when? Who do you see as the force behind the Military faction - The Lt Colonels @Steve Thomas has brought to light?

If they haven't been released and are not in that database... how can there be meta data related to it and where in the database would that be so BARD could have found it? I know quite a bit about databases but not anywhere near that regarding meta tags and how SEARCH finds them. Thanks

If we can believe Chambers. Understood... that's why I said No to #2, I didn't see how one would affect the other.

So says you... and once again you are terribly wrong on each count.... I get you WISH there wasn't a conspiracy to cover-up the assassination by your posts and your .2% doubt... but there was... Notice the FBI memo was written during the autopsy... you actually think an FBI SA would admit to more bullets than Hoover allows? Kinda naive given they lied about not being in the morgue for over an hour since they were told never to let JFK out of their sight. As for the photos - how pedantic is "the ones we've seen" - you want to play that game have at it... kinda transparent though. "Ebersole and Custer both signed off". PEDANTIC and kinda pathetic. The HSCA is 1977... 14 years, not 30, 40 or 50 years. Ebersole most definitely messed with the x-rays and lied about his activities that night... I'm sorry that's lost on you. Pat - I am at a loss for why you maintain this view that the evidence we have is indicative of the event and the activities which followed... That you believe the words of the very men involved in the cover-up as gospel when we've proven over and over what a charade the autopsy was. I'm terribly sorry you feel it necessary to interject this dribble in a discussion about the details of a specific part of this cover-up... the most important aspect of the covering up of evidence was what they did to the medical evidence and you post here as if it were an honest accounting of what happened to our president. Shame on you. Dr. BADEN. Do you recall when you took the X rays in the sequence of taking X rays and you took the X rays initially before any incision was made in the body? Dr. EBERSOLE. That is right. Dr. BADEN. You took the head, chest, abdomen, extremities? Dr. EBERSOLE. The order was skull first, then chest, the trunk. Dr. BADEN. I see. When Colonel Finck came in these had already been taken? Dr. EBERSOLE. Yes, and repeated once. Dr. BADEN. Now when you say repeated, were X rays repeated after the autopsy had started? Do you have an independent recollection of that? Dr. EBERSOLE. The second group of X rays were taken either before the incision was made or very shortly thereafter. Dr. BADEN. Why did you take the two X rays of the pelvis that are similar? Were these taken at the same time or one later? Dr. EBERSOLE. I believe that represents the second go around. Dr. BADEN. One represents the second go around because there does appear to be fecal in the large intestines on both. Dr. EBERSOLE. Right. Dr. BADEN. The second go around was after the autopsy had been done. Dr. EBERSOLE. No, certainly the autopsy was not completed at the time of the second one. It would have possibly been started but all X rays with the exception of fragments were taken fairly early in the evening. Dr. PETTY. Then as I understand it there was a quandry where was the bullet and somebody suggested taking a second set of X rays. Dr. EBERSOLE. Yes. That suggestion came from a non- medical person, a Secret Service agent. Dr. PETTY. All right. So a second set of X rays were taken. Dr. EBERSOLE. Yes. Dr. PETTY. And, Mike, you say there were three of these that were taken later? Dr. BADEN. Yes. We have three. I believe eight. I will name them knowing the body partially eviscerated. Dr. PETTY. All right. Did anybody suggest to you or ask you to X ray the viscera that was removed between the first set of X rays and the second? Dr. EBERSOLE. No, sir. Dr. PETTY. All right.

@Larry Hancock Thank you... "former" military though? As I read the docs he never left the military... Isn't that what Newman is looking to prove with Veciana?

{my bold emphasis} I'm sorry Steve... there is no record of the men being paraded thru DP other than the photos. There are no mug shots or fingerprint cards for these 3 arrested tramps? @Leslie Sharp "Capt Jones assigned to watch 3 hobos dirty" I don't see how your posts explains 2 arrests on the 22nd of the same tramps. Sorry

I can definitely accept there was something behind that parade... that it would have any bearing on the ballistics or forensics... I don't see how... can you help me understand?

63-10-23 CARACAS JMWAVE JOANNIDES IS WALTER NEWBY 104-10170-10002.pdf

I wrote you on another thread too... these are not real file #'s. The final series of numbers is always 5 digits and there are no 104-10385-#### docs or 104-10500-#### docs. btw - The man's name is George Joannides

Hi Leslie... these tramps were never arrested... they were just paraded thru DP for some odd reason... no one had a squad car to take them? when virtually every other person involved was transported in a car. Do you think any of those 3 men had a role in the assassination? note: just like manhole cover bullet guy and Mexico's Mystery Man, can we really say we have actually identified them correctly? So the answer to your 1st Q is yes... and No to the 2nd.. at this point

Hi Keyvan... I have all the links to all the released docs in a spreadsheet... the last part of the file #'s have 5 digits, not 4. My 104-10400-##### starts at 10000 and runs to 10316 I have no listing for 104-10385-#### with 4 or 5 numbers at the end I have no listing for 104-10500-#### with 4 or 5 numbers at the end Can you please provide the links to the pages for these File #'s. I do have the arrest reports on the 3 men and I posted Chambers' response to seeing them a number of posts ago but on this page I think. I just downloaded the excel file with the most recent 2023 releases and it too does not have the file #'s you list. https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/release2023?search=104-10385-1002# https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/release2023?search=104-10400-1003# https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/release2023?search=104-10500-1002# Am I looking in the wrong place?

Replica rifle and replica paper bag... the FBI acquired over a dozen FC 40" rifles yet not a single one from the 100 rifles supposedly sent to Kleins. In fact, not a single one of the other 99 rifles has ever been found. Kinda strange considering they were on ad special for almost a year.

Thanks so much for the response and the time Larry. As COS Saigon who would have been his direct superior? and then his direct superior? Wouldn't Prouty have been involved in the logistics of supplying "things" to the CIA requested from the Military? ...and why would he be communicating directly with the Generals if he wasn't in some way directly beholden to them? Am I wrong in saying that many CIA operatives were actually Military ranked personnel like Conein and may have had loyalties outside the CIA the entire time? 56-08-13 Conein to take leave of the CIA and go back to the Military DOC_0005355240.pdf

Hi Mark, I'd suggest searching this forum for "NYC SCHOOL RECORDS" as the duality here rears its head in the fall of 1952. The boy's permanent record is a mass of contradictions with the FBI simple counting days and filling blanks. At the bottom are 3 versions of the same boy's NYC school permanent record, none ofd them being the continuation of the other as Perm Records do. I fully understand the difficulty in accepting the conclusion... When we start to talk about the physical evidence available in support of this duality, we find a list that is extremely long and extremely detailed. Not just a "name" thing, or a "photo" thing or even the testimony of Pic. Children simply do not get smaller during puberty. I contacted the Bronx Zoo to find the heights of the railing he leans upon to approximate this boy's height. That boy is not yet 5' tall and weighs no where near his 6th grade weight, 18 months earlier. He also cannot attend school for more days than there available to even go to school. The FBI included every weekday thru June, July and August to arrive at their 200 days, when Ozzie did not attend summer school and was out for 3 week at YOUTH HOUSE during that period. Can you help me understand this with alternative explanations?

Steve, take note of MIDDLETON. Decided to just post the necessary docs to get a flavor of this duality... 2 sets of tramps. 1 photographed in DP and released by Decker, the other never photographed, potentially bogus arrest reports, and claim to be there up to 6 days. @Paul Cummings @Joe Bauer

Larry - who then would Conein ultimately be responsible to?

@Benjamin Cole 2 sets of x-rays Multiple sets of conflicting photos 2 Brain exams for 2 different brains Multiple bullets removed, 1 mentioned in FBI documents. Did Bobby make the ear bullet disappear with the intercostal bullet? How "innocent" and blissfully naive you are...

Mrs. CONNALLY. In fact the receptions had been. so good every place that I had showed much restraint by not mentioning something about it before.I could resist no longer. When we got past this area I did turn to the President and said, "Mr. President, you can't say Dallas doesn't love you."Then I don't know how soon, it seems to me it was very soon, that I heard a noise, and not being an expert rifleman, I was not aware that it was a rifle. It was just a frightening noise, and it came from the right.I turned over my right shoulder and looked back, and saw the President as he had both hands at his neck.

BTW - in support of Newman's contention (and a core feeling I have as well) that it was the Military and not the CIA which pulled the strings. Conein was ACSI on loan to the CIA

. Bush on a Zapata Oil rig

@Benjamin Cole @Michael Griffith Mostly for Ben who enjoys seeing the docs

I was quite surprised to have found this and reading thru the thread I don't think I missed this not being mentioned. Harkness tells us he took more than just these three men off the train Last sentence: @Steve Thomas you mention DEAN is one of the sergeants over WISE... and a sergeant usually gives the orders to the street cops... Dean was the man who ordered the 2 men in the basement parking lot to leave their posts for traffic duty opening an unguarded path for Ruby. Herbert Sawyer also had a very interest day as one looks closer. The tramps in the pictures were released while the three men with arrest sheets found decades later where supposedly in the jail over the weekend. Decker was instrumental in the release of these three men, at least according to this .

Joe, A Mauser uses a Stripper clip, not the type of clip associated with CE139. When no clip was present, Seymour Weitzman who had sold rifles and knew them pretty well said it was a Mauser and Boone/Craig backs him up. If DAY actually said out loud "6.5 cal, Made in Italy" it's hard to understand how the 2 sheriffs sign an affidavit for a 7.65 rifle. Most are not aware that FBI SA ODUM is the man who takes DAY back to his office, alone, with a rifle. One would have thought the DPD, that DAY would have photos taken. Mr. McCLOY. There was never any doubt in your mind what the rifle was from the minute you saw it?Mr. DAY. No, sir; It was stamped right on there, 6.5, and when en route to the office with Mr. Odum, the FBI agent who drove me in, he radioed it in, he radioed in what it was to the FBI over the air.

Steve... yeah, you can have a larger caliber rifle and smaller caliber bullets by using a sabot (see below) which is the size of the rifle's caliber yet is holding the smaller caliber bullet. Drop the 6.5 hulls by the window and just make sure the rifle in evidence matches that caliber. Image on left is the rifle DAY is carrying from the TSBD, on the right is the one and only image of the caliber stamp on what they claim to be the rifle in evidence. An actual 7.35 stamp compared to the 1 photo in evidence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabot_(firearms)

A Knoll shooter as seen in Moorman and described by Sam Holland Colored on the left, this spot on the photo is neither tree nor fence as shown on the right. as @Chris Bristow mentions: A gunman crouched a few inches above the fence could simultaneously pull the rifle back and step away and down in under two seconds. At that point he would be completely invisible to everyone. In Moorman the shooter looks closer to the tree due to the angle at which Moorman was taking her photo. The more to the west one moves the more realistic the distance visually becomes. FWIW .