John Butler

I can't swear to how accurate the Russian is in this letter to Marina. But, it is translated by some Russian expert who apparently had no problem translating it. Reading the English translation, there is a fairly sophisticated message there requiring a good knowledge of Russia. Another thing to indicate Harvey's knowledge is the use of the Cyrillic alphabet/written language. (Cyrillic- denoting the alphabet used by many Slavic peoples, chiefly those with a historical allegiance to the Orthodox Church. Ultimately derived from Greek uncials, it is now used for Russian, Bulgarian, Serbian, Ukrainian, and some other Slavic languages.) The Cyrillic alphabet is very alien when compared to the English alphabet.) One point to make here is that Harvey's Russian writing appears to be less strained then when he is writing in English.

At that distance and with the quality of the photo it would be hard to say Harvey or Lee. Lee is supposed to be there at Corregidor for a short time. Using David Josephs excellent Timeline, Lee Oswald was on Corregidor in Nov. 11, 1957. Anyone interested can check out John Wayne's visit to Corregidor and the date of that visit. That's probably what Epstein did. Wayne was supposedly there during the time he was filming the Barbarian and the Geisha. Can we prove that is Lee. Maybe so. We could look at photos of those times and notice that there is a difference between the hair patterns of Lee and Harvey. Harvey has a hair pattern with a more receding hairline. In later times he used a comb over to hide that recession. Compare these photos of Harvey and Lee during the period 1957-58. Harvey is the Oswald in the center photo. I didn't believe this for the longest time. Not until I looked closer at photos of Harvey in which he hides this recession pattern. The outside images of Lee Oswald does not have this pattern. If you look at the Corrregidor John Wayne/Oswald photo, the Oswald figure's hair pattern looks more like Lee. That's not much to work on and some would consider a bit far out, but may point out that this is an Oswald and from the record, Lee Oswald. Their appearance was close enough to fool a lot of people. IMO, the government tried to change every photo of Lee Oswald into Harvey Oswald, the man shot at the Dallas Police Station. This even goes back to baby photos. From their position, there can be only one Lee Harvey Oswald. They had a great deal of help from Robert Oswald who shows up later years later with these kinds of photos.

Thanks Jim, But, Sandy Larsen is the real deal here. His work is beyond a doubt kind of evidence. I provided a link sometime back in this thread so folks could review his work. What I did above was to try to explain to Ron in a simpler, graphic form the difference in the teeth of Harvey and Lee. The thing I can pat myself on the back for is finding a photo clear enough of the Civil Air Patrol scene (from Robert Groden's book) where a blow up of Lee Harvey Oswald can be seen clearly. And, that provides a second graphic evidence that he was missing at least two teeth in his upper set. It bolsters Sandy's work which with another example of missing teeth in teenage Lee Harvey Oswald.

Yep. Didn't see it. It looks like a Marrs mistake. That list I didn't add any names to. It is a copy into a word doc from an internet source. Jim Marrs had 103 people listed. I have something like 117 different kinds of deaths. There must be some kind of overlap somewhere. I went back and checked all of the categories twice and the numbers came out the same. I'm still trying to see where I went wrong or even if I did. Listing Guy Bannister twice could be some of the error in numbers. I went back and checked for categories mentioned in the general information as duplicates and found a couple, but after adjustment the numbers stayed the same. If someone spots where I went off the trail let me know and I will make adjustments. From what I see here I don't know if I went wrong, or actually went wrong.

Bill Shelly is lucky he didn't make the Jim Marr's death list early on. I'm sure the policemen shoving his shotgun into Shelly's face was a warning. Notice Shelly's reaction. The red typing an arrow looks like something I did, but could be any number of people. If me, it had to do with the underlined statement And, David's work showing that Bill Shelly was the person at the Trade Mart in NO with Oswald. Shelly was arrested that afternoon and was charged. This is disputed, so who knows? The point is Shelly's reaction which is caught on camera as the policeman directs his shotgun in line with Shelly's head. Some people believe the Dallas Police were a murderous bunch sometimes referred to as the "blue death".

Part of this list of heroic people are the ones who died under suspicious circumstances. I have updated Jim Marrs' list trying to list the cause of death if it was just listed as murder or natural causes without a cause of death. The results are: Jim Marrs list of suspicious deaths 1963 – 1976- Updated In Jim Marrs list of suspicious deaths there are basically 3 causes of death. These are violent deaths, deaths by natural causes, and unknown deaths. Violent deaths can be broken down into these deaths caused by external circumstances and their number: Violent Deaths- 57 Gunshot- 23 Deaths associated with a vehicle- bus, auto, plane etc. 14 Suicide- 8 Strangled- 2 Throat cut- 1 Blow to neck- 2 Fatal fall- 2 Drug overdose- 3 Electrocution- 1 Blow to head- 1 Heater explosion- 1 Natural Causes- 60 Natural causes- no listing of cause for death- 16 Heart attack- 27 Cancer- 12 Long illness- 2 Surgery- 2 Stroke- 1 The natural cause of death is complicated due to the belief that the categories Heart Attack and Cancer could be caused by external factors such as poison gas or darts to induce Heart Attacks which would be judged natural and Cancer due to an alleged fast acting cancer that could be delivered as an assassination agent. I'm sure there will be objections to this, but these beliefs are out there and should be mentioned. Unknowns- 5 Jim Marrs list of suspicious deaths 1963 1976 updated original.docx

Ron, The whole Harvey and Lee thing is confusing at first. See David Josephs wonderful timeline of Harvey and Lee. Sorting out whose who at the beginning takes some work and thinking. Once you do it is very clear that that Josephs has clearly documented the beginnings of Harvey and Lee in the late 1940s in Texas. John Armstrong and his supporters have provided tons and tons of information that back up their contention that there were two Oswalds. Sorting this out takes a while, but once you see the evidence there is no going back to a single lone nut Oswald. The first photo comparison is Harvey Oswald, the man shot at the Dallas Police station. He is not Lee Harvey Oswald. These photos show the teeth of an unknown individual who posed and died as Lee Harvey Oswald. He is known as Harvey Oswald from John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee presentation. Both were in the Marine Corps. This photo of Harvey was taken, most likely in Basic Training, in 1956. If you compare the upper teeth you will see they are the same. The left lateral incisor is smaller and identical in both photos. It is Lee Harvey Oswald who has missing teeth. Harvey Oswald is 17 years old in the Marine Corps photo above. Lee Harvey Oswald is a younger teenager here, about 14 or15 years in the classroom photo and the Air Patrol photo. When you put this evidence together as has been done by a number of people, it is indisputable there was a Harvey and Lee.

Altgens photo, Altgens 6, was taken at 12:30 CST. They first appearance of the photo to the American public is at 5:35 CST on the Walter Cronkite news program. Is that enough time to rearrange things in Altgens 6 by photo editors who spend there life doing such things? How long does it take to make a wire photo transmission? There was plenty of time to notice Doorway Man shouldn't be there. And, someone else needed to be seen there and not Doorway Man. I don't think that is Lee Oswald. I don't know who the face mask of Billy Lovelady is covering. How were photos changed in those days? Simple cut and paste operations. If you want to know more consult the work of David Healey on film editing processes. Or watch the movie Jason and the Argonauts that came out that same year, 1963. As you can see film alteration by cut and paste methods were fairly sophisticated in those days. If you want to know more about the process of film editing in the movie: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2003/dec/20/featuresreviews.guardianreview16 Sorry, I don't have an answer that you can accept.

Here is a simple comparison of Harvey and Lee's teeth: The top two photos show the teeth of the man shot at the Dallas Police station. We call him Harvey Oswald for lack of a real name which certainly isn't Lee Harvey Oswald. If you go back and review Larsen's evidence you will see that this man has 31 teeth, one less then what is pretty much normal for everyone, 32. He is missing the lower, right 3rd molar. This is either it didn't form or was extracted. Larsen provides very clear and detailed photos showing this. The bottom two photos show Lee Harvey Oswald has missing front teeth. There seems to be a difference in which front teeth are missing. I have no explanation for this. But, one is not needed. There are missing teeth. The photo on the right (screen left) shows what appears to be a missing left, upper central incisor and a left, upper lateral incisor. The photo on the right (screen left) seems to show two central incisors and a gap bigger than for one lateral incisor. This gap may represent the same space in both photos. The apparent difference may simply be due to camera angles. As I said earlier, it doesn't matter. There is a missing tooth or missing teeth for Lee Harvey Oswald and the man killed at the Dallas Police station has all of his upper front teeth. There is a great deal more evidence then this provided by Sandy Larsen in his post. Go back and review it.

Just as a matter of review of Sandy Larsen and Oswald's teeth.

Ditto! Wouldn't be my choice. Eddy needs to watch an old boy on the YouTube videos of Hitchok45 as he demonstrates various rife capabilities at Dealey Plaza ranges. This would be my choice or the rifle it replaced. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vqMIz9ZaMk If I am remembering correctly the late 50s and early 60s were a time of dumping WWII weapons from the US, England, Germany, and the Italian abominations. You could pick up a good hunting rifle for about 10 bucks.

I agree Andrej, I will not say anything else about Altgens 6. Except to explain why I thought your film imagery was bizarre: The image of the Doorway Man looks like a female. The Oswald figure with the Lovelady face mask is definitely male. What I found was bizarre is the female figure looks like Thug Rose, a female MMA fighter. Sorry.

I also think that Altgens 5, 6, and 7 have been altered. I'm not going to rehash what I have said earlier. Do some research and you will see what I have said and the responses of others to that.

Jeremy Bojczuk, Thanks for that list of names. I might add to your list Bob Yeargan who made the AMIPA film. This is a film on the motorcade traveling down Main Street. I have a copy of the Trask book, and have looked at the information available and have a few reservations here and there. These are KNOWN people. Who are the unknowns? How many were there? This was the question I was asking. I have forgotten the exact number of unknowns I counted, it is about a dozen or more. These folks would be making film on the passenger side of the vehicle.

And, don't forget earlobes. Harvey had them and Lee didn't.

I agree. But, we shouldn't forget many, many others who died under mysterious circumstances.

Can you name those? It is something I have been studying. The available films and photos show a dozen or more people filming that are unknown. It would be nice to know who these people were. Once the motorcade approaches Dealey Plaza on Main Street we only have 3 photographers filming the passenger side of the p. limo. Since you have some knowledge of this perhaps you can explain this. And, name those dozens, please. I might add here most of these unknown photographers were on the passenger side of the vehicle filming that side. This is observed from people who took photos or films from the driver's side.

I haven't heard anything said about The Murder of Marilyn Monroe: Case Closed by Jay Margolis and Richard Buskin. I suppose that is BS and discredited also.

All of the relevant photos can't be explained by camera angles, etc. There are questions that need to be asked. For instance, why have a double spy program if you don't use your double spies in the same locations? There would be periods where the double spies need not be together. Harvey in Russia and Lee in the US actively operating as Lee Oswald runs the risk of exposure of the double spy. John Armstrong and others picked up on that. Hoover's indication that there may have been two people using the Oswald birth certificate is the only reference I know of that Hoover did not know about the double spy. In Russia, Oswald No. 1 would be the main person. Oswald No. 2 would come into the country under clandestine cover and not named as Oswald No. 1. The CIA was very capable of doing this. There would be only two Oswalds at one time. That means that spy Oswald NO. 2 was replaced. It seems that the double spy activity centers around Marina Oswald. At least in the photos. Who knows what else Harvey and Lee would be doing in Russia. I'm sure part of that would be assessing what the people of Russia felt/thought about communism and their country in regards to overthrowing the Soviets. Harvey's entry into the Soviet Union was a planned affair. Intense interrogation would be assumed by the Russians. This would be the type of drugs/torture interrogation that no could resist. Harvey breaking under that assumed interrogation would be planned for at the beginning. Harvey as a trained agent was trained for this probably through MK-Ultra. There would be an alternative story behind Harvey's first expressed story, or even several fall back stories. This would be a believable fall back story. I'm with Mae Brussell on this. Harvey's defection to the Soviet Union has to do with the U2 and providing the Soviets with the info to shoot down a U2. Oswalds whole Marine career was about the U2 program. From what I have read there were few or no Americans in Minsk prior to Harvey being there. Perhaps tourists would wander through. This was typical of most Soviet cities. The Iron Curtain was a two way curtain. In the 1950s we knew very little about what was going on in the Soviet Union. Hence, the defector program as one tool to gather information. There were others. There always seems to be people willing to betray their government and people for various reasons they consider important. Take a good look at the Goros/Bentley networks of the 1930s and 1940s. Most of the American people involved volunteered to give information to the Soviets. Double spies and altered photos are really not that believable to people. This is what I see and catch it for that belief constantly. I've spent the last 35 years comparing the details of an object (any object whether it is a real object or one you see in your mind) and putting those details on canvas in an oil painting. I'm not a great artist, but I would say a good one. And, basically that means becoming proficient in comparing objects detail in their similarities and differences. That's basically what an artist does. The putting of those details on canvas is not as important as recognizing similarities and differences.

David, When are you going to ask an easy question? Mysterious Marge looks 70-ish, but could be 80-ish. The Keating lady looks 80-ish if not older. I don't think they look alike at all. But, that is mainly a factor of weight and wrinkles. A matter of wrinkles as you will see in the second photo collection in determining age. Here is a grouping of 80 year old women. Many look their age, but there are quite a few that look younger by up to 10 or more years: Not the greatest of evidences, but it shows that Mysterious Marge could be older than she looks in that photo of being 70-ish. I don't know what to make of Marg Oswald and Margaret Keating having the same address.

When looking at these photos of real and phony Oswalds, we need to remember the government diktat: There is only one Lee Harvey Oswald. That is the person that was killed at the Dallas Police station. By that they meant the person we call Harvey Oswald, one half of the Harvey and Lee duo. These photos are of Harvey Oswald and others mixed with Harvey Oswald. I see 3 perhaps four individuals. Definitely 3, 4 might be stretching it. Look at the 3rd row of photos. The most right one (screen left) is some one who reminds me of the person on the bridge with Marina sometimes called the short Oswald. That photo is the government card of Alex Hidell. Once again in the 3rd row the left most (screen right) photo I judge to be Lee Oswald. Chins in these photos are dead give-a-ways. Also narrow and broad noses, particularly in the photo I judge as Lee who has the broader nose, not Harvey. Chins vary from relatively narrow to broad. Narrower chins belong to Harvey and broader chins belong to Lee or someone else such as the James Alek Hidell character. It's a gnarly question because of the genius of the photo manipulators. Look at these one way now and perhaps a year later you might look at them differently. With that said, I hope I haven't wandered to far off from where we talked about this before.

I remembered the info, but not the source. Sorry. That was an acute observation. I have had trouble with the photos of the various Marges during their 50s or just prior. The teeth thing helped clarify things. Thanks. Margruerite C. and Margruerite M. A big slip up on someone's part. Who forgets there middle name or initial. I'm glad you decided to take that on to look at. I hope you get more out of it than I did. Best candidate and not any real provable connection was as far as I could go. There are so many things to keep up with its hard to do that. I don't remember the context, but I have seen this before, probably from David. Just guessing here, but it seems like the gimlet knife was a criminal or assassin weapon. This from a google search. They are also called push knives. The ones with a spike were used for pushing directly into the heart, ear, eye, or spine. This early Leon Voitier if memory serves is in the Voitier/Claverie family. Mistaken Identity by William Torbitt II Who Was Leon Voitier “Oswald? The name Leon Voitier existed as early 1938 when he was born in New Orleans, long before the Kennedy Assassination. In 1966, Dr. Richard Popkin theorized in his book, “The Second Oswald” that in 1963 two individuals used the same identity. According to FBI reports, two different “Lee Harvey Oswalds” were in different places at the same time. In 1963, Jim Garrison searched for a Leon “Oswald” as a Lee Harvey Oswald imposter in New Orleans. In the 1970s, Richard Case Nagell, a retired US Army Intelligence officer, exposed an “Oswald” look-alike named Leon Oswald. This book will identify who Leon Voitier was and why he ever existed in the first place. The 1964 Warren Commission’s “Marguerite Oswald” was presented as the mother of the accused assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald. She was not his biological mother, although she considered him as her “boy”. They lived together for longer periods then her biological son Leon “Oswald”. How this came about will be revealed when second generation French families played a pre-assassination game of deception in New Orleans for two decades and an ongoing family feud over the possession of the two “Oswald” boys. It caused a JFK nightmare of identity. Everyone connected with the murder of John Kennedy became compromised by a family secret of two second-cousins that looked alike." I'm not certain where William Torbitt II got his information. Supposedly Leon Voitier was the son of Aminthe Voitier, but I could find no information on a Leon Voitier born in 1938. I don't have a copy of Mistaken Identity. But, as with most things I work on someone has been there before. Torbitt II is close to what I was thinking and putting together, but not identical. “William Torbitt II”, unlike his 1970 predecessor, “William Torbitt”, is a composite of many JFK students who have touched on the truth without knowing it. In this research, the original “William Torbitt” will be identified. In addition, the identity of the Warren Commission’s “mother” of the acused assassin will be exposed. She was not the mother of the accused Lee Harvey Oswald, but closely related by marriage to the real Marguerite Claverie Oswald. Her biological son, Leon “Oswald” will be profiled and his role that paralleled his cousin, the accused assassin. In 1956, the two cousins enlisted in the US Marines a month and a half apart using the same birth certificate. With the recent release of the 1940 US Census, the two “Oswald” boys can now be identified. Related by marriage, the two dysfunctional New Orelans families that shaped the Kennedy Assassination can now be revealed. By 1944, Aminthe Jeanne Voitier, a first cousin to the real Marguerite Claverie Oswald, may have gained possession of the real Lee Harvey Oswald from his Orphan Home. Either she kidnapped him or an agreeable exchange was made. That is doubtful, since for the next twenty years Aminthe Jeanne Voitier seemed to be blackmailing the real Marguerite Claverie Oswald, or she may have given the real Lee Harvey Oswald to another family. It is possible that the real Oswald was later adopted by mistaken identity." I don't know where Torbitt II got this info in the last paragraph, but I have reservations on this. It wanders to far away from the central thesis of Harvey and Lee. As I said earlier in the 1940 Census Aminthe Voitier and Jeanne Carter, a sister one year younger, had no children. The 1940 Census lists Marguerite Oswald as Marguerite C. Oswald. I have been informed that this may not be a middle initial, but simply indicate Claverie. It is interesting to note that Torbill II has the two Oswald enlisting in the Marines 1 and 1/2 months apart using the same birth certificate. Be interesting to see where he got that info.

David, Does this letter sound like something Mysterious Marge would write? It reads as if a classier woman than M. Marge wrote it.

"Those are photos of the Marguerite imposter according to Armstrong. BTW, the one and only Marguerite reported her height on a passport from 1965 as 5' 2 and 1/2 inches. People shrink as they age but only about an inch or so. That means at her tallest she was 5' 4'' (being generous)." Tracy Parnell. The passport of Marguerite Claverie Oswald is Mysterious Marge not the one and only Marguerite: This is Mysterious Marge by age, height, glasses of a particular style, toothhless smile or expression, and mole under the right eye. The next set of photos clearly show their age differences. Another characteristic of Mysterious Marge is the mole under her right eve visible in the center photo. Real Marge at screen left does not have this mole. A third characteristic would be there age difference. The real Marguerite Claverie would be 53 in 1960. And, she appears to be in that age group. In 1963 Real marge would be 56 and the two photos for the imposter for this same year appears to show a much older woman. Mysterious Marge is still an unknown. The best candidate for M. Marge is Aminthe Voitier. Are there any photos available for Aminthe Voitier?

Somewhere I read that the teeth of the woman we call Real Marge (Marguerite Claverie) and the woman we call Mysterious Marge (unknown) were different. So, here is this research comparison: Mysterious Marge at the left (screen right) has a right upper central incisor(?) (screen left) that appears to be two teeth. Or, more realistically her upper right incisor is tiny and narrower than the left upper central incisor. The tooth next to the small narrow central incisor is the right lateral incisor. This gives the appearance of one split tooth. On the other hand Real Marge has two large upper central incisors that appear normal and the same size as other folk's teeth appear. So, when in doubt whether this Marge is that Marge or not one can use this tooth characteristic to help identify whose who. Real Marge seems to smile widely in photos. This characteristic can be useful when in doubt: This photo of Marguerite Claverie is readily identified as Marguerite Claverie by her teeth. As is the next: However, Mysterious Marge does not smile widely showing her teeth. Perhaps a habit to hide her abnormal incisors developed as a younger person. In a lot of photos I have trouble identifying whose who. This helps quite a bit with the real Marguerite Claverie and not so much with her doppleganger.