JFK Secret Service Agent: hole in windshield of limo!

[David Lifton]

On 8/4/2018 at 9:06 AM, Greg Wagner said:

By my count, we have 9 witnesses who claim they saw a bullet hole in windshield:

• Frank Cormier, St Louis Dispatch
• Richard Dudman, St Louis Dispatch
• Stavis Ellis, DPD 
• HR Freeman, DPD 
• Dr Evalea Glanges
• Bill Greer, SS (told to Nick Prencipe, US Parks Police)
• Joe Paolella, SS 
• Charles Taylor, Jr, SS 
• George Whitaker, Ford

Aside from Richard Dudman (St. Louis Post-Dispatch), who -- on 11/22/63 -- reported a hole in the windshield, the most impressive witness (for me) was SS Agent Charles Taylor.  On the evening of 11/22/63, Taylor drove the limo from Andrews AFB to the White House garage. He had plenty of time to observe the windshield, which was 12 to 18 inches from his eyes.   In his report -- first published in the Appendix to Josiah Thompson's ˆSix Seconds in Dallas"  (1967/68)--  Taylor specifically noted the "hole" in the windshield.  That was "the record," circa 1967/68.  But then came the "magic show" that transformed the issue into a game of "3card monty." 

First of all, in the early70's, I worked with the staff of the Senate Intelligence Committee, seeking to get Taylor's report into the format of a sworn affidavit.  The result was not what I had hoped for.  Taylor waffled and executed some kind of document which asserted  that, contrary to his 11/22/63 report, there was no hole (!).  Really?

Then I made arrangements for the windshield to be uncrated, and made available for my personal inspection.  What I found: no hole, just as Taylor now said.  Just a shallow scratch (or some imperfection) in (or "on") one side of the windshield.  Let me spell out what was not present: There definitely was no "hole" in the windshield.  And whatever damage was present was "none-penetrating" (my term).   

It seemed obvious to me that the "windshield damage" clearly visible in (or "on") the windshield as shown in the Altgens photograph (as the limo pulled away, and headed for the Triple Underpass, as published in Thompson's Six Seconds),  was not present in the windshield now stored at the U.S. National Archives,  and brought out for my personal inspection. 

My own reaction: What can be done when an ordinary citizen is confronted by the blatant falsification of evidence by his own government?  The same issue is presented by the lateral autopsy X-Ray.  Suddenly, the hole at the back of JFK's head, observed by some dozen doctors at Dallas, has disappeared. 

We're never going to get to the full truth about the JFK assassination until the matter of evidence falsification is properly analyzed and resolved.  You can't get to the truth about Dallas until the falsified evidence is recognized and impeached.  (DSL, 9/20/22_ 12:10 AM PDT).

Edited October 10, 2022 by David Lifton

[James DiEugenio]

Keyvan:

I doubt it.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

There are 2 photos of the JFK limo that show the cracks after Z313, & the 2 photos show no hole in that area.

The frangible last AR15 slug from Hickey's last shot of his accidental auto burst hit JFK in the head at Z313.

The remnant slug cracked the windshield, having veered say 6 deg inside the skull.

 

The frangible AR15 slug from Hickey's 2^nd last shot of his accidental auto burst made the dent in the chrome trim, at about Z310, the slug having almost grazed the underside of the rollbar/divider a few feet back from the windshield, the slug having almost grazed the top of the Queen Mary windshield say 25 ft back from the JFK windshield.

 

The first touch of that slug was on the underside of the chromed trim, ie on the bottom half of the chromed trim.

The chrome trim has a crease running along its face at close to the midpoint of the face, ie the bottom half angles downish, & the top half angles uppish.

Hence the first touch of the nose of the slug sends the initial spray of melted or fragmented lead down & forward in a say 180 deg arc, at which time that spray hits the rear vision mirror.

And once the dent in the chrome trim starts to develop & grow then the later spray of lead is sent backwards in a 360 deg arc/cone, ie away from the rear vision mirror.

 

And tests would i feel sure show that a stainless steel chromed strip lying loosely over a heavy tube of mild steel would not be penetrated by a frangible 223 AR15 slug at a range of 30 ft.

When i say loosely i mean that geometry tells us that there must be an air gap between the creased (non-flat) face of the trim & the flat face of the tube -- plus the air gap might be rather larger than that if the trim is not snug (ie if it is indeed loose).

 

A few members replying to this thread have good sense -- but some others should search ebay for a good BS meter.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Marjan Rynkiewicz

[Keyvan Shahrdar]

4 hours ago, David Lifton said:

Aside from Richard Dudman (St. Louis Post-Dispatch), who -- on 11/22/63 -- reported a hole in the windshield, the most impressive witness (for me) was SS Agent Charles Taylor.  On the evening of 11/22/63, Taylor drove the limo from Andrews AFB to the White House garage. He had plenty of time to observe the windshield, which was 12 to 18 inches from his eyes.   In his report -- published in the Appendix to Josiah Thompson's ˆSix Seconds in Dallas"  (1967/68)--  Taylor specifically noted the "hole" in the windshield.  That was "the record," circa 1967/68.  But then came the "magic show" that transformed the issue into a game of "3card monty." 

First of all, in the early70's, I worked with the staff of the Senate Intelligence Committee, seeking to get Taylor's report into the format of a sworn affidavit.  The result was not what I had hoped for.  Taylor executed some kind of document which asserted  that, contrary to his 11/22/63 report, there was no hole (!).  Really?

Then I made arrangements for the windshield to be uncrated, and made available for my personal inspection.  What I found: no hole, just as Taylor now said.  Just a shallow scratch (or something) in (or "on") one side of the windshield. There definitely was no "hole" in the windshield.  And whatever damage was present was "none-penetrating" (my term).   

It seemed obvious to me that the "windshield damage" clearly visible in (or "on") the windshield as shown in the Altgens photograph (as the limo pulled away, and headed for the Triple Underpass, as published in Thompson's Six Seconds),  was not present in the windshield at the U.S. National Archives,  brought out for my personal inspection. 

My own reaction: What can be done when an ordinary citizen is confronted by the blatant falsification of evidence by his own government?  The same issue is presented by the lateral autopsy X-Ray.  Suddenly, the hole at the back of JFK's head, observed by some dozen doctors at Dallas, has disappeared. 

We're never going to get to the full truth about the JFK assassination until the matter of evidence falsification is properly analyzed and resolved.  You can't get to the truth about Dallas until the falsified evidence is recognized and impeached.  (DSL, 9/20/22_ 12:10 AM PDT).

Hi David,

The Altgen Photo does not show any damage to the windshield.  What I see is a piece of Jackie's glove around JFK's neck.  I have not seen a single photograph that shows any damage to the windshield of the limo that has not been taken by the SS.  There is a picture at unt.edu that shows the limo, I tried to emboss the image but no significant anomaly shown.  There is an area by the steering wheel that has a slight anomaly, where the above photo shows a hole by the bottom of the windshield.

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth184729/m1/1/

 

[Pamela Brown]

Here is the 'Hole is a Hole' theory...

http://ss100x.com/hole1.html

[Pamela Brown]

2 hours ago, Marjan Rynkiewicz said:

There are 2 photos of the JFK limo that show the cracks after Z313, & the 2 photos show no hole in that area.

The frangible last AR15 slug from Hickey's last shot of his accidental auto burst hit JFK in the head at Z313.

The remnant slug cracked the windshield, having veered say 6 deg inside the skull.

 

The frangible AR15 slug from Hickey's 2^nd last shot of his accidental auto burst made the dent in the chrome trim, at about Z310, the slug having almost grazed the underside of the rollbar/divider a few feet back from the windshield, the slug having almost grazed the top of the Queen Mary windshield say 25 ft back from the JFK windshield.

 

The first touch of that slug was on the underside of the chromed trim, ie on the bottom half of the chromed trim.

The chrome trim has a crease running along its face at close to the midpoint of the face, ie the bottom half angles downish, & the top half angles uppish.

Hence the first touch of the nose of the slug sends the initial spray of melted or fragmented lead down & forward in a say 180 deg arc, at which time that spray hits the rear vision mirror.

And once the dent in the chrome trim starts to develop & grow then the later spray of lead is sent backwards in a 360 deg arc/cone, ie away from the rear vision mirror.

 

And tests would i feel sure show that a stainless steel chromed strip lying loosely over a heavy tube of mild steel would not be penetrated by a frangible 223 AR15 slug at a range of 30 ft.

When i say loosely i mean that geometry tells us that there must be an air gap between the creased (non-flat) face of the trim & the flat face of the tube -- plus the air gap might be rather larger than that if the trim is not snug (ie if it is indeed loose).

 

A few members replying to this thread have good sense -- but some others should search ebay for a good BS meter.

The t+t 'windshield hole' theory is a rabbit trail, tossed into the mix just to confuse newbies...

http://ss100x.com/hole1.html

Edited September 20, 2022 by Pamela Brown

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

On 9/20/2022 at 11:05 PM, Pamela Brown said:

Here is the 'Hole is a Hole' theory...

http://ss100x.com/hole1.html

Yes -- good wordage.

I enjoy reading Vince's stuff even tho he has a faulty BS meter.

Likewize Robin Unger has a keen eye -- but somehow is in love with the WC report. And, Robin refuses to include the photo of the hole in the floor of the JFKlimo on his jfkassassinationforum site.

Where is the carpet today (Ferguson probly did not destroy it) -- it has a bullet hole in it.

Will someone have a look under the JFKlimo at the museum -- they will see a bullet hole in the driveshaft hump.

Edited March 10 by Marjan Rynkiewicz

[Greg Wagner]

7 hours ago, David Lifton said:

It seemed obvious to me that the "windshield damage" clearly visible in (or "on") the windshield as shown in the Altgens photograph (as the limo pulled away, and headed for the Triple Underpass, as published in Thompson's Six Seconds),  was not present in the windshield at the U.S. National Archives,  brought out for my personal inspection.

Hey David. Thanks for the thoughtful reply. This is clear evidence the windshield at the National Archives is not the windshield that was on the car in Dealey Plaza. Add that to the long, long list of items that debunk the official story. 

It's difficult to untangle this mess and get to the truth when the evidence provably lacks integrity in so many instances. I think this is an important concept to embrace in this case. It is important to recognize this fact and meet the case where it is. Not where it should be. Not where we want it to be. The extant evidence is a mess and cannot be trusted. When working on any aspect of the assassination, a person must understand this and come up with research methodologies to deal with this reality. I agree that a critical step is to impeach the falsified record wherever we encounter it.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Greg Wagner

[Paul Cummings]

6 hours ago, Greg Wagner said:

Hey David. Thanks for the thoughtful reply. This is clear evidence the windshield at the National Archives is not the windshield that was on the car in Dealey Plaza. Add that to the long, long list of items that debunk the official story. 

It's difficult to untangle this mess and get to the truth when the evidence provably lacks integrity in so many instances. I think this is an important concept to embrace in this case. It is important to recognize this fact and meet the case where it is. Not where it should be. Not where we want it to be. The extant evidence is a mess and cannot be trusted. When working on any aspect of the assassination, a person must understand this and come up with research methodologies to deal with this reality. I agree that a critical step is to impeach the falsified record wherever we encounter it.

Outstanding post Greg. 

[Chris Bristow]

13 hours ago, Keyvan Shahrdar said:

Hi David,

The Altgen Photo does not show any damage to the windshield.  What I see is a piece of Jackie's glove around JFK's neck.  I have not seen a single photograph that shows any damage to the windshield of the limo that has not been taken by the SS.  There is a picture at unt.edu that shows the limo, I tried to emboss the image but no significant anomaly shown.  There is an area by the steering wheel that has a slight anomaly, where the above photo shows a hole by the bottom of the windshield.

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth184729/m1/1/

 

If the theorized bullet hole was Jackie's right hand glove then her arm should cover part of the right rear hand hold. If she was reaching from below her arm would cover part of JFK's coat. If she reached over the top of the hand hold image we would see her forearm block the clothing of the Croft lady in the background. None of those are present so I think it is impossible that the white patch could be her arm. I believe we can see her right hand on top of JFK's  left forearm and her left hand is obviously holding JFK's forearm from below.
 

[Chris Bristow]

THE WHITE PATCH IS NOT THE CLOTHING OF THE CROFT LADY BEHIND JFK:
The  Croft lady behind JFK is holding a handbag with white squares surrounded by darker colors. A sliver of the top and right side of it are visible above the white patch. you can see the pattern of checked light and dark squares on both slivers. The location is a perfect match to her handbag and the size of the dark and light squares also match. This tells me that the white patch is not in the correct place to be her clothing because the white patch overlaps her dark apron looking thing and obscures it. It has been theorized that the white patch IS her handbag. But her handbag is light squares surrounded by the brown stripes while the white patch is dark at the center with white all around it. The white patch is also far to large to have anything to do with her handbag even if it was in the right location which it is not. Because the white patch covers her dark apron it has to be something in front of it, but I can't find anything to explain it.
  The Altgens 7 image appears to be further to the side of the mirror than in A-6, but because the hole and mirror are not on the same plain(The mirror is several inches behind the windshield.) the A-7 angle should show more area between the mirror and the white patch.  The fact the white patch is in that different location in A-7 supports the idea that the white patch was located on the windshield.
Finally I think there is no dark hole visible in A-7 for two possible reasons. First a hole would be seen from more of an angle than A-6 and would be more oval. Second the Sun coming from the front/side in A-7 would create much more glare of the inside wall of the hole and the fractured area around it. In A-6 the Sun is coming from behind Altgens. I don't argue for it definitely being a hole but the proofs given that it is not a hole don't add up for me.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Chris Bristow

[Pamela Brown]

On 9/20/2022 at 9:09 AM, Marjan Rynkiewicz said:

Yes -- good wordage.

I enjoy reading Vince's stuff even tho he has a faulty BS meter.

Likewize Robyn Unger has a keen eye -- but somehow is in love with the WC report. And, Robyn refuses to include the photo of the hole in the floor of the JFKlimo on his jfkassassinationforum site.

Where is the carpet today (Ferguson probly did not destroy it) -- it has a bullet hole in it.

Will someone have a look under the JFKlimo at the museum -- they will see a bullet hole in the driveshaft hump.

There is no photo of. hole in the floor pan...

The rear carpeting had to be replaced. That was done by Dec. 3rd. Vaughn Ferguson kept some of the old bloody carpeting and sold pieces of it.

The Kennedy limousine at Dearborn hs been completely rebuilt...

These rabbit trails are intended to divert us from how little actual damage was done to the limo. Hence, LHO with his $12 rifle with a misalaigned sight could not have accomplished this...

[Pamela Brown]

On 9/20/2022 at 2:17 AM, David Lifton said:

Aside from Richard Dudman (St. Louis Post-Dispatch), who -- on 11/22/63 -- reported a hole in the windshield, the most impressive witness (for me) was SS Agent Charles Taylor.  On the evening of 11/22/63, Taylor drove the limo from Andrews AFB to the White House garage. He had plenty of time to observe the windshield, which was 12 to 18 inches from his eyes.   In his report -- published in the Appendix to Josiah Thompson's ˆSix Seconds in Dallas"  (1967/68)--  Taylor specifically noted the "hole" in the windshield.  That was "the record," circa 1967/68.  But then came the "magic show" that transformed the issue into a game of "3card monty." 

First of all, in the early70's, I worked with the staff of the Senate Intelligence Committee, seeking to get Taylor's report into the format of a sworn affidavit.  The result was not what I had hoped for.  Taylor executed some kind of document which asserted  that, contrary to his 11/22/63 report, there was no hole (!).  Really?

Then I made arrangements for the windshield to be uncrated, and made available for my personal inspection.  What I found: no hole, just as Taylor now said.  Just a shallow scratch (or something) in (or "on") one side of the windshield. There definitely was no "hole" in the windshield.  And whatever damage was present was "none-penetrating" (my term).   

It seemed obvious to me that the "windshield damage" clearly visible in (or "on") the windshield as shown in the Altgens photograph (as the limo pulled away, and headed for the Triple Underpass, as published in Thompson's Six Seconds),  was not present in the windshield at the U.S. National Archives,  brought out for my personal inspection. 

My own reaction: What can be done when an ordinary citizen is confronted by the blatant falsification of evidence by his own government?  The same issue is presented by the lateral autopsy X-Ray.  Suddenly, the hole at the back of JFK's head, observed by some dozen doctors at Dallas, has disappeared. 

We're never going to get to the full truth about the JFK assassination until the matter of evidence falsification is properly analyzed and resolved.  You can't get to the truth about Dallas until the falsified evidence is recognized and impeached.  (DSL, 9/20/22_ 12:10 AM PDT).

The windshield at NARA is the windshield in the limo at the time of the assassination. The long striations are a result of the Arlington Glass men kicking it out with their feet. There was no t+t hole. There was a defect which you can see in the Altgens 1-7. It increased a bit in size as a result of the flight back to DC and drive from AAFB to the WHG, which you see in CE350...

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

On 9/22/2022 at 9:07 PM, Pamela Brown said:

There is no photo of. hole in the floor pan...

The rear carpeting had to be replaced. That was done by Dec. 3rd. Vaughn Ferguson kept some of the old bloody carpeting and sold pieces of it.

The Kennedy limousine at Dearborn hs been completely rebuilt...

These rabbit trails are intended to divert us from how little actual damage was done to the limo. Hence, LHO with his $12 rifle with a misalaigned sight could not have accomplished this...

I have seen a photo showing a hole in the floor. Robin Unger has seen it too, but has not included it on his website.

I have seen an FBI internal letter re the hole in the floor.

There is a newspaper report re the hole in the floor, but i have not been able to find that snippet.

I suppose that Ferguson kept the piece of carpet with the hole, & kept it a secret.

The floor of the limo will still have the hole, but u would need to get under to see the hole, steel plate (i dont think that it was titanium) was installed on top of the floor hence u wont see the hole from above.

The hole was made by the remnant slug from Oswald's shot-1 at say Z113 that ricocheted offa the western side of the western guy rod of the overhead signals below his window.

Holland says it was at Z103 i think. I am happy to split the difference -- Z108.

The 2 broken half jackets (brass or copper) found in the limo are from shot-1.

Some of the lead splatter from shot-1 hit jfk in the back of the head -- vizible in Xrays.

That (Z103 108 113) is when jfk said my god i have been hit -- as per what Kellerman said.

But jfk apparently got over the shock in a few seconds & somehow for some reason carried on as if nothing had happened. Bad move.

Oswald fired shot-2 at about Z218 -- the magic bullet that went throo jfk & Connally.

Oswald did not use the telescopic sight. And he made 3 holes, 1 in jfk, 1 in Connally, & one in the limo.

Edited September 23, 2022 by Marjan Rynkiewicz

[Gil Jesus]

On 8/3/2018 at 10:44 PM, Vince Palamara said:

JFK Secret Service Agent Joe Paolella, who passed away in 2017, admits that he saw a bullet hole in the windshield of President Kennedy’s bloody limousine the night of the assassination AND that Gerald Blaine omitted this from his book The Kennedy Detail!!! Author William Law is coming out with the book they were working on--Paolella thought there was a conspiracy, questioned Oswald's abilities, and was no fan of Blaine's book.

 

When you put the windshields side-by-side, you can see the difference in the damage. I'm sorry, but these are NOT the same windshields.