EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

[Chuck Schwartz]

• The following is a Mae Brussell footnote on Otto O.:"Hon. John R. Rarick of Louisiana told Congress about a long-suppressed Government Employees Exchange report titled "Otto Otepka: Victim of the New Team", on the CIA to establish an underground government within our government (Congressional Record April 30, 1969 - pg. 10918)."

[John Butler]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Thanks for the Daily Beast excerpts.  According to John Simkin in this Spartacus-Education post, “In 1948 Frank Wisner was appointed director of the Office of Special Projects. Soon afterwards it was renamed the Office of Policy Coordination (OPC). This became the espionage and counter-intelligence branch of the Central Intelligence Agency.

Dulles and Wisner (and add Washington Post’s Bill Graham) would rather famously go on to direct Operation Mockingbird for the Agency starting around 1950. According to a Wikipedia article, referring to reporter Deborah Davis (author of a 1979 biography of the Post’s Katherine Graham):

Davis claimed that Frank Wisner, director of the Office of Policy Coordination (a covert operations unit created in 1948 by the United States National Security Council) had created Operation Mockingbird in response to the International Organization of Journalists, recruiting Phil Graham from The Washington Post to run the project within the industry. According to Davis, "By the early 1950s, Wisner 'owned' respected members of The New York Times, Newsweek, CBS and other communications vehicles."^[6] Davis claimed that after Cord Meyer joined the CIA in 1951, he became Operation Mockingbird's "principal operative."^[7]

One of my earliest memories involves looking at the tiny, black and white screen of an early television set and seeing the images of WWII war orphans on newsreel footage.  These sad images hardly prove Harvey Oswald was a war orphan, but his fluency in the Russian language strongly suggests early exposure to it.

I watched a video on Roosevelt and intelligence.  William "Wild Bill" Donovan created a plan and reported this plan for Roosevelt's approval.  Roosevelt was delighted.  This plan would have agents slip chemicals into Hitler's food which would cause his mustache to tall out and his breasts would grow like a woman's. 

Doesn't that sound familiar.  Why throw away a good idea if it didn't work the first time?  Obviously, Allen Dulles must have been involved in that and the Castro thing.

Frank Wisner is in charge in 1948.  The Oswald project is already in progress.  Remember David J. says that the first appearance of Harvey and Mysterious Marge in in July, 1947.  Allen Dulles is out for a year or two in politics, but Frank Wisner is still in the intelligence service in the surviving organizations that mutate into the CIA.  In 1948 Dulles is back in and Wisner's boss.     

There must be some time for the Gardos to have possession of Harvey for the Tippit Teletype unknown caller to know of that.  This FBI document, if true and I have no reason to think that it isn't, tells us that the Gardos, Weinstock, and Blair are government agents.  And, they are part of the Oswald Project if they are raising Harvey, the Lee Harvey Oswald that the unknown caller said was the son of Emil Gardos.  This limits the time for the Gardos to do that.  They must have done  this prior to July, 1947 going as far back as 1942 when Eleanor Roosevelt brought 52 orphan refugees to the US.  So, the time period stretches, in possibility, from 1942 to 1947.  1942 is the approximate time for toddler Harvey's studio photo.  Robert Oswald or the Oswald family must have gotten this photo from an intelligence agency.  There is no way the Oswalds could have this photo except through the government.  The photo is definitely Harvey, the man shot at the Dallas police station by Jack Ruby.

During this time there are many possibilities for speculation as to what really happened.  Like most things in the JFK story things are open to speculation and controversy.  There are facts that can be stated, but they don't give you the whole story, but simply outline what is going on and to figure out the rest can only be done by inference.  Inference is an inferior product to hand to people to explain the story.  But, at this time what else do we have?

The two photos of the Oswalds as toddlers about 3 years old could throw a spike in the wheels of progress.  They suggest Harvey may not be a war orphan refugee.  Or, on the other hand the photo of Harvey, a studio photo, may have been done in France, Italy, or Switzerland.  Or, it cold have been done at the time of the 52 orphans came to the US in 1942.  Or, Harvey may be a home grown product.  These photos might have been used to select the two Oswalds for the project.  Lack of facts leads to speculation that relates to distant facts such as the bringing of refugees to the US.

Harvey's proficiency in Russian may mean he was a descendant of Russians, or folks from countries like Poland or Lithuania.  Poland had in the east had a large Russian speaking population that was given to Poland from Russian territory after WW1.  The pack between Stalin and Hitler was to recover the territory taken from their countries by the establishment of Poland after WW1 by the Big Four.  What the Big Four in really did was set up WW2 and every major war since. 

Or, he could be a descendant of Russian Jewish communists.  Or, simply he could be from a family of Russian communists and not Hungarian at all.  I say this because the unknown caller in the Tippit doc did not know the whole story.

The whole story says the son of Emil Gardos, John Gardos, is not Harvey Oswald.  She did not know that.  The belief is that the unknown caller was a foreign woman or a person who had a foreign accent.  This may or may not be true.  A smart operative would be able to fake an accent and an old woman's voice.  This why Mr. Tippit heard one kind of accent and Mrs. Tippit heard another. 

The unknown caller must be someone involved in intelligence or the communist movement in the US in New York City during the years mentioned in order to have this info.  The Fuhrman's are out unless something or someone can come up with new information.  They need to be kept in the loop and researched further.  They wouldn't know the whole story involving the what was going on either. 

The idea that when Harvey was in New York about 1952-53 and some doctor says Harvey looks like a starved out refugee is not tenable.  Mysterious Marge had Harvey in her care for 5 years by this time.  Harvey's health and appearance would depend on Marge's care.  Harvey's weight and general appearance in 1952 or so could not be used to prove he was a refugee prior to July, 1947.  This thought has been there for some time.  I thought I would go ahead and express it and see what folks say.

Sorry, I was only going to mention the Roosevelt and Donovan story and got carried away.    

 

    

Edited March 26, 2020 by John Butler

[John Butler]

Jim,

Go to this net address for immigration facts during WW2.  It is a treasure house:

http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/archives/collections/franklin/?p=collections/findingaid&id=505

 

 

 

Edited March 26, 2020 by John Butler

[John Kowalski]

19 hours ago, John Butler said:

Harvey and Lee has this down fairly well as far as refugees go.

John B:

The issue here is CIA conducting spying operations in the US, which it had been prohibited from doing.  

[Jim Hargrove]

Exactly, but as releases over the last few decades have disclosed, the Agency appears to have been involved in all sorts of illegal domestic activities.  Here’s a page from the so-called “Family Jewels.” 

More than seven hundred other pages from the “Family Jewels” can be downloaded directly from a CIA website at this address:

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/collection/family-jewels

[John Butler]

Thanks John K,

I don't think anyone in intelligence or government agencies like the FBI ever took the prohibition on spying in the US seriously during any time period. It's like the FISA courts keeping anyone from spying on American citizens.  How did that work out?  

[John Butler]

Jim,

IMO, the intelligence agencies at all levels have never really let "spying on the public forbidden" get in their way.

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, John Butler said:

The idea that when Harvey was in New York about 1952-53 and some doctor says Harvey looks like a starved out refugee is not tenable.  Mysterious Marge had Harvey in her care for 5 years by this time.  Harvey's health and appearance would depend on Marge's care.  Harvey's weight and general appearance in 1952 or so could not be used to prove he was a refugee prior to July, 1947.  This thought has been there for some time.  I thought I would go ahead and express it and see what folks say.

Jim,

What did you think of this notion?

[Jim Hargrove]

John,

We could debate whether to trust Hartogs’ description of (Harvey) Oswald in The Two Assassins, but don’t forget that another psychiatrist at Youth House, Dr. Milton Kurian, said he was surprised to learn Harvey was 13 years and that “he appeared quite small for his age....”  Probation officer John Carro also described “LHO” as small. 

On a Public School 44 health card dated May, 1953, (LEE) Oswald’s height was listed at 5’ 4-1/2”, more than seven inches taller than the 4’ 8” (Harvey) Oswald measured at Youth House the previous month.  These appear to be two different kids.   The whole school truancy business that landed Harvey in Youth House is another clear example of the distinctions between the pair.

In 1953, real Marguerite and LEE were living in a basement apartment at 1455 Sheridan in the Bronx while LEE was attending PS 44. Starting in late 1952, HARVEY and “Mysterious Marge” (nice phrase!) were on 179th St.--just three blocks from the Bronx Zoo--while Harvey was supposed to be attending PS 117.  But was mostly truant.  Records for PS 117 show that (Harvey) Oswald attended only 15 of 62 days in school during late 1952 through March 23, 1953.  This is clearly serious truancy.

None other than NYC FBI SAC John Malone reviewed in court “LHO’s” original school records that Judge Florence Kelley refused, until ordered otherwise, to allow the FBI to confiscate.  In his report to Hoover, SAC Malone wrote, “"Oswald's attendance record at PS #44 from 3/23/53 to 1/12/54 was 171 and 11 half-days present and 18 and 11 half days absent.”  This is clearly NOT serious truancy, and is indicative of the school history of the two Oswalds.  Harvey was often truant, Lee was not.

The fact that the NYC court system was demanding the presence of (Harvey) Oswald and his “mother” in court was surely an absolute disaster for the nascent H&L program.  Can you imagine LEE Oswald somehow getting tangled up in this and accused of truancy?  He had pretty good attendance nearly everywhere in school.  What would he have said in court?

Mysterious Marge and Harvey apparently fled NYC to hide out, in of all places, Stanley, North Dakota.  Have you ever been to North Dakota?  It’s about as empty and rural as a Great Plains state can get, remarkably different from NYC. 

Sorry to talk so long.  I must have too much time on my hands.

[John Butler]

52 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Sorry to talk so long.  I must have too much time on my hands.

No worries.  Always glad to get your viewpoint.  Too much time on a fellow's hands is a blessing.  It gives one time to think. 

 

53 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

We could debate whether to trust Hartogs’ description of (Harvey) Oswald in The Two Assassins, but don’t forget that another psychiatrist at Youth House, Dr. Milton Kurian, said he was surprised to learn Harvey was 13 years and that “he appeared quite small for his age....”  Probation officer John Carro also described “LHO” as small

Very true.  But, the question remains on who was responsible for Harvey's appearance.  By 1952 Harvey had been under Mysterious Marge's care for 5 years.  It's probably a problem that can't be answered.

56 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Mysterious Marge and Harvey apparently fled NYC to hide out, in of all places, Stanley, North Dakota.  Have you ever been to North Dakota?  It’s about as empty and rural as a Great Plains state can get, remarkably different from NYC. 

Yep.  I totally agree.  What were they doing out there?  Your idea of hiding out there is a good one. 

I have been through North Dakota many times on the way to Wyoming and Montana.  I discovered in about the year 2000 that the western deserts of Wyoming are full of semi-precious rocks that jewelry can be made from and lots of fossils from several different geologic eras.  I just found the area around Rock Springs, Wy. very likable.  Summer and winter views of the area are totally different.  When the snow covers the ground you are reminded this area is up in the mountains at 7000 feet.

Yep.  North Dakota is a place to avoid except for hunting rocks and fossils.

[Jim Hargrove]

The surviving school records only make sense when you understand the two Oswalds and their differences.

After hiding out in North Dakota from the New York City courts, HARVEY Oswald and Mysterious Marge moved to New Orleans, where Harvey attended Beauregard School in the fall semester of 1953. During the very same term, LEE Oswald attended  PS 44 in the Bronx. This is very clear from documents published by the Warren Commission.

But many people have wondered why Harvey only had two courses—General Science and Phys Ed—in his first semester at Beauregard.  The answer that finally occurred to me is really quite simple.  

Just a short time earlier in New York City, Harvey had nearly endangered the entire H&L project because of his truancy and his increasing involvement with the NYC legal system. After the escape to North Dakota, Harvey had to be eased gently back into school, and so in New Orleans he was apparently given just the two classes to make the transition to regular school attendance more tolerable.  

The gradual re-introduction to school apparently worked, because HARVEY Oswald  attended Beauregard throughout the fall semester of 1953 with nearly perfect attendance of 89 days present and just one day absent.  During the very same semester in NYC, LEE Oswald attended PS 44 for 62 full days and 8 half days, absent for 3 full days and 8 half days.

The schooling of the two Oswalds can be easily traced at least through two more consecutive school terms.  For a pretty good but unfinished look at these terms, see:

Lee and Harvey in Three Consecutive School Semesters

[John Butler]

On ‎3‎/‎27‎/‎2020 at 4:11 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

Just a short time earlier in New York City, Harvey had nearly endangered the entire H&L project because of his truancy and his increasing involvement with the NYC legal system. After the escape to North Dakota, Harvey had to be eased gently back into school, and so in New Orleans he was apparently given just the two classes to make the transition to regular school attendance more tolerable.  

Think about it for a minute.

Would you want a crew such as Allen Dulles, David Atlee Phillips, E. Howard Hunt, Frank Wisner, Richard Bissell, Tracy Barnes, Ann Goodpasture on your back telling you that you should be doing what they want you to do rather than what you want to do.

This is 1953 and this cast of regime changers and assassins are in charge of the Oswald Project.  There is not much these fellows wouldn't do to advance their agenda.

 

[John Kowalski]

Does anyone recall reading that one or some of Harvey's payroll checks were signed by someone other than the people he worked for? Apparently the check(s) were signed by a president of another company while he was working at: Leslie Welding, Jaggers-Chiles-Stovall or Reilly's.

[Jim Hargrove]

John,

That doesn’t ring a bell for me; maybe DJ remembers something.  But it does point to how weird the Official Story® of these three employers is.  For one thing, both Reily Coffee and JCS seemed to have clear intel connections.  What was a so-called commie defector, who told a U.S. official in Moscow he would tell the enemy everything he knew about his time in the Marine Corps, doing working for these companies?  According to John A., JCS particularly did sensitive work for the Navy and the Army Mapping Service.  “Oswald” started working there during the Cuban Missile Crisis!

Second, why did the U.S. Social Security Administration (SSA) on two different occasions include only “Oswald’s” work at these three companies, plus the Book Depository, in his lifetime earnings report; first in it’s report to Marina after Harvey’s death, and second in answer to a direct request from the HSCA?

-------------------

-----------------

“Copies of three pages of the Warren Commission Report” offered as SSA employment evidence?  Hah-hah!  Someone at the SSA knew that the Official Story of “Oswald’s” pre-Marine Corps employment was bogus, as was “Oswald’s” alleged 1956 IRS tax return:

It’s easy to prove the above “document” is phony.  For one thing, “Oswald” was employed by the Marine Corps during part of 1956 and, therefore, his Marine income should have been included, but it wasn’t.

Why?

Probably because whoever fabricated the document and supporting documents didn’t know how much “Oswald” earned in the military at the time.  His Marine income wasn’t certified until September 15, 1964, long after the 1956 Form 1040 was fabricated.

[John Butler]

38 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

For one thing, both Reily Coffee and JCS seemed to have clear intel connections.  What was a so-called commie defector, who told a U.S. official in Moscow he would tell the enemy everything he knew about his time in the Marine Corps, doing working for these companies?

I, like most believed that Lee Harvey Oswald killed JFK.  That is until in 1975 when CBS aired, with Dan Rather, a 4 part documentary titled CBS Inquiry:  The American Assassins.  The first 2 hours were devoted to Lee Harvey Oswald and the Kennedy assassination.  It's the part that told the story of Lee Harvey Oswald at the Jaggers-Child-Stovall company that made me sit up and pay attention.  It was exactly as you said, what was a defector to Russia, dishonorably discharged Marine, Castro supporter, and communist activist doing working at a place such as JCS? 

Even if he had nothing to do with the secret activities at JCS, he should have had nothing to do with the company and not been hired.  It rang false and still does.  Particularly, the part about JCS doing aerial photography on Cuba there.  The fiction in those days was that the aerial photography was done by U2 planes.  It was actually done by satellite photography.  This was ultra top secret in 1963.  This was a secret in classroom history books up until the mid 1990s showing Cuban missile sites photographed by U2s.

The story of Oswald at JCS, the backyard photos, and the idea that nobody can without a reasonable doubt say that a rifle was fired from the Sniper's Nest, convinced me that Oswald was a government agent and framed for the assassination of JFK.        

Edited March 30, 2020 by John Butler