EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

[Jim Hargrove]

H. Louis Nichols, who at the time of the assassination was the President of the Dallas Bar Association, testified to the WC that Oswald told him when he visited him in jail that he (Oswald) wanted to contact Abt.  

Mr. NICHOLS [....] I informed him that I was there to see whether or not he had a lawyer, or wanted a lawyer, and he said--he asked me first did I know a lawyer in New York named John Abt, and I don't know if it is A-b-t, or A-p-t.
Mr. STERN. I believe it is A-b-t.
Mr. NICHOLS. I believe it is. In New York City, I said I didn't know him, and he said, "Well, I would like to have him to represent me," and at some period I believe prior to that, either in talking to the police, or talking to--must have been talking to either Captain King or the chief---I had been told that some effort had been made to get hold of Mr. Abt, and that he was in Connecticut at his home, and maybe, and I have forgotten who said who was trying to get ahold of him. At least, I did vaguely know that someone was trying to get ahold of him, but I told Mr. Oswald I didn't know him. He said, "Well, that is the man he would like to have represent him." Then he asked me if I knew any lawyers who were members of the American Civil Liberties Union, and he said, "Well, I am a member of that organization, and I would like to have somebody who is a member of that organization represent me." And I said, "I'm sorry, I don't know anybody who is a member of that organization."
Although, as it turned out later, a number of lawyers I know are members. Two or three of them called me later. He said, "Well, if I can't get either one of those, and if I can----"
Mr. STERN. That is either----
Mr. NICHOLS. "Either Mr. Abt or someone who is a member of the American Civil Liberties Union, and if I can find a lawyer here who believes in anything I believe in, and believes as I believe, and believes in my innocence"-then paused a little bit, and went on a little bit and said, "as much as he can, I might let him represent me."

John K -- John A. didn't mention anything about researching Eckdahl on his recent trip to Asia. 

[Jim Hargrove]

11 hours ago, John Butler said:

From Kennedy and Oswald:  The Big Picture

Here is an excerpt from this book:

It would be interesting to know whose telephone for the office and residential address Oswald gave to Paine.  One would assume that this was information to contact John Abt.

If so, then why did Oswald have this information?  Why did he have this telephone numbers of an office and residence in New York memorized?   Did he have this information memorized or did he have someone look it up?  Is there no evidence to say someone looked this up for him?  

Does this mean Oswald had some plan if caught in some nefarious business to have legal protection?  Does this mean Oswald was uncertain of his place in the scheme of things in Dallas?

And, is this request from Abt real as questioned in the last paragraph here?

Sure...

But Thomas Kelley, Captain Fritz, Chief Curry, “Marguerite Oswald,” and Ruth Paine, in addition to Dallas Atty. H. Louis Nichols, all said Oswald asked for Abt.  Of all the usual suspects, I’m inclined to believe the WC reports about H. Louis Nichols.  We're all guessing here, but my guess is that noted commie Harvey Oswald asked for noted commie defender John Abt. Why not?

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Sure...

But Thomas Kelley, Captain Fritz, Chief Curry, “Marguerite Oswald,” and Ruth Paine, in addition to Dallas Atty. H. Louis Nichols, all said Oswald asked for Abt.  Of all the usual suspects, I’m inclined to believe the WC reports about H. Louis Nichols.  We're all guessing here, but my guess is that noted commie Harvey Oswald asked for noted commie defender John Abt. Why not?

So, we can be sure that Harvey asked for Abt as his lawyer and had his home and office phone numbers memorized or the Dallas PD helped him with the numbers.  Harvey had other numbers in his head.  He called to North Carolina for help if I'm remembering right.   

If so what was the deal with Ruth Paine and others?  Why did he ask so many different people?  I think it is more that commie helps commie here.  Was this a signal to his handlers that he could give the game away by connecting to Abt in New York and by connecting to Abt as someone who already knew what the game was?  

Was this a ploy by Harvey that he was not going down quietly and he was not going to take the blame?  Was this an attempt by him to save his life in this situation?  He probably figured that they were going to kill him eventually.  When he looked and saw Jack Ruby on Sunday morning did he realize this was the end?   

 

Edited April 3, 2020 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

14 hours ago, John Butler said:

Was this a signal to his handlers that he could give the game away by connecting to Abt in New York and by connecting to Abt as someone who already knew what the game was?  

Was this a ploy by Harvey that he was not going down quietly and he was not going to take the blame?  Was this an attempt by him to save his life in this situation?  He probably figured that they were going to kill him eventually.  When he looked and saw Jack Ruby on Sunday morning did he realize this was the end?   

These are the million dollar questions that I’ve wondered about for years.  Captain Fritz, George Butler, Chief Curry, and ADA William Alexander ALL said it was obvious that Oswald had been trained to resist interrogation.  They, and probably many others, surely knew there was far more to this suspect than met the eye.

By the time he publicly declared himself a patsy, Oswald apparently recognized he was being framed, and, at some point, he was surely going to sing like a canary. My guess is he would have wanted a private meeting, and an attorney representing him would be perhaps his best opportunity, to tell his story and determine the best course of action.  Allowing him to live long enough to do this was unthinkable for some. 

I've also wondered if he didn't confide in someone before his death.  If he did, my guess is he would have chosen the highest-level official he was able to speak with privately, but I don't know if such a circumstance existed.

[David Andrews]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

 

By the time he publicly declared himself a patsy, Oswald apparently recognized he was being framed, and, at some point, he was surely going to sing like a canary. My guess is he would have wanted a private meeting, and an attorney representing him would be perhaps his best opportunity, to tell his story and determine the best course of action.  Allowing him to live long enough to do this was unthinkable for some. 

 

The "i'm a patsy" bit was a serious misstep, made out of emotional stress when "I didn't kill anybody" would have sufficed.  He couldn't quite walk that back by later claiming the stigma of defecting to Russia.  Otherwise, from all we know and can rely on, the Dallas Oswald did a fairly good job of straddling the hard line between "I'm Lefty Lee, keeping up my cover" and "None of your business until I get an attorney."  Of course, we don't know what he might have let slip about his associations that went unreported.

Do you put any faith in the John Hurt phone call legend?

Edited April 3, 2020 by David Andrews

[Jim Hargrove]

David,

I don’t think it’s a legend at all.  Citing a 4/11/78 HSCA interview with Hurt, John A. wrote (emphasis added by me):

In 1978 the HSCA contacted John David Hurt at 201 Hillsborough St. Apt 4 in
Raleigh, NC (phone# 919-834-7430). Hurt received a law degree from the University
of Georgia, but never practiced. He was formerly with the Army Counterintelligence
corps in Europe and Japan (1942-1946) and was recently in the insurance business. Hurt
was a short, middle-aged man who, as a result of severe arthritis, was missing most of
his fingers from both hands. He was disabled in 1955 and received full government
disability. John Hurt told HSCA investigators that he had phone number 919-834-7430
for the last 20 years. 249 [H&L, p. 931]

[John Butler]

Jim,

Here's something interesting and amusing that came up while working on pics in another thread.

This bit of camera legerdemain may take a bit of explaining:

First off, I have a frame from the Tina Towner film at the left (screen right).  This frame shows reflections on the side of the p. limo that represents the crowds on the southwest corner of Houston and Elm Street since the vehicle is making the turn from Houston onto Elm.  If possible magnify this.  (This is where Toni Glover said she saw Kennedy's head explode.  I include this also as an example of the weirdness of Dealey Plaza that afternoon.) 

The reflections on the side of the p. Limo has been mirrored and this is at the right (screen left) side.  This shows a better view of Houston and Elm Streets.  The reflections on the side of the p. limo shows a considerably reduced crowd on the southwest corner of Elm and Houston than the ones shown in the Zapruder frame and the Elsie Dorman Frame.

This matches something else I have done with Zapruder and Dorman films.  The number of people shown in the two films on Houston and Elm Street's southwest corner do not match.

 

Edited April 5, 2020 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

While he lived as a child in New York City, Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald clearly liked going to the Bronx Zoo more than going to school.  John Pic, half-brother of American-born LEE Oswald, told the Warren Commission he did not recognize the person in this famous Bronx Zoo photo, supposedly of the one and only “Lee Harvey Oswald.”

Some 67 years later, in April 2020, a tiger in the same Bronx Zoo that HARVEY Oswald loved became the first animal in the United States to test positive for COVID-19. 

 

CLICK HERE for full New York Daily News article.

Edited April 5, 2020 by Jim Hargrove

[John Butler]

19 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Some 67 years later, in April 2020, a tiger in the same Bronx Zoo that HARVEY Oswald loved became the first animal in the United States to test positive for COVID-19. 

You know, (said with my best Central Ky voice from back in the hills) the thing about them there tigers is that they always look hungry.

[John Butler]

I have been thinking about this tiger and I have decided that it should be fairly easy to social distance without feeling any moral issues.

[Jim Hargrove]

John,

Lol!  I'd keep my distance too.

EDIT: But getting too close to that tiger would almost certainly mean we wouldn't die from COVID-19.  Always look on the bright side, eh?

Edited April 7, 2020 by Jim Hargrove

[Jim Hargrove]

Here is an update on the Office of Security document we were discussing a week or two ago.  John A. doesn't have access to his documents right now, but Malcolm Blunt has the page in his collection and recently sent two notes to John A about it.  Mr. Blunt just now gave me an OK to post his notes here:

From April 5:

Quote

John, it's so dark you cannot reproduce it......I can just make out Oswald Marguerite(or Margaret)...".old Nazi information 1941" is written by hand ...there is a typewritten line on the card which is illegible...….best, Malcolm

From April 6:

Quote

John, when I checked the doc it says,Oswald,Mrs...so no forename......when I put the doc under ultra violet,the type written line seems to be something like HCUA Index ...January 19th 1953......it gives two reference numbers 1048,1049....and handwritten is 1940 info on Nazis ….I do not think this relates to Marguerite or LHO....the CIA file search is 12th October 1961.....and is on Marina Oswald...so I guess they just punched in the Oswald name,all traces and that's what came up.....this is an Office of Security (SRS) search by Margaret Stevens(her name is redacted but I know her handwriting)…..interestingly she did one search on Rosa Kuznetsova which turned up Augustin Trueba as her ex husband,Trueba was a CIA agent.....eventually the OS/SRS decided that it was a different Rosa Kuznetsova,it would have been a little embarrassing if one of the Intourist guides met by Oswald was previously married to a CIA agent.....best, Malcolm.....the RIF number fort= the document is 104-10300-10086

 

[John Kowalski]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Here is an update on the Office of Security document we were discussing a week or two ago.  John A. doesn't have access to his documents right now, but Malcolm Blunt has the page in his collection and recently sent two notes to John A about it.  Mr. Blunt just now gave me an OK to post his notes here:

From April 5:

Quote

John, it's so dark you cannot reproduce it......I can just make out Oswald Marguerite(or Margaret)...".old Nazi information 1941" is written by hand ...there is a typewritten line on the card which is illegible...….best, Malcolm

From April 6:

Quote

John, when I checked the doc it says,Oswald,Mrs...so no forename......when I put the doc under ultra violet,the type written line seems to be something like HCUA Index ...January 19th 1953......it gives two reference numbers 1048,1049....and handwritten is 1940 info on Nazis ….I do not think this relates to Marguerite or LHO....the CIA file search is 12th October 1961.....and is on Marina Oswald...so I guess they just punched in the Oswald name,all traces and that's what came up.....this is an Office of Security (SRS) search by Margaret Stevens(her name is redacted but I know her handwriting)…..interestingly she did one search on Rosa Kuznetsova which turned up Augustin Trueba as her ex husband,Trueba was a CIA agent.....eventually the OS/SRS decided that it was a different Rosa Kuznetsova,it would have been a little embarrassing if one of the Intourist guides met by Oswald was previously married to a CIA agent.....best, Malcolm.....the RIF number fort= the document is 104-10300-10086

Jim:

Can you clarify something for me. John A. mentioned M.Oswald 1941 Nazis but Malcolm can't verify that, are they quoting different documents?

Checked Mary Ferrell for 104-10300-10086 and could not find it.

 

[David Josephs]

On 4/5/2020 at 7:43 AM, John Butler said:

Jim,

Here's something interesting and amusing that came up while working on pics in another thread.

This bit of camera legerdemain may take a bit of explaining:

First off, I have a frame from the Tina Towner film at the left (screen right).  This frame shows reflections on the side of the p. limo that represents the crowds on the southwest corner of Houston and Elm Street since the vehicle is making the turn from Houston onto Elm.  If possible magnify this.  (This is where Toni Glover said she saw Kennedy's head explode.  I include this also as an example of the weirdness of Dealey Plaza that afternoon.) 

The reflections on the side of the p. Limo has been mirrored and this is at the right (screen left) side.  This shows a better view of Houston and Elm Streets.  The reflections on the side of the p. limo shows a considerably reduced crowd on the southwest corner of Elm and Houston than the ones shown in the Zapruder frame and the Elsie Dorman Frame.

This matches something else I have done with Zapruder and Dorman films.  The number of people shown in the two films on Houston and Elm Street's southwest corner do not match.

 

Hey John,

Take another close look at the actual towner image.  Now look at an overhead of Dealey Plaza...

Dal-Tex is in the background of the Towner image so the reflection would be back down Houston..  Elm would not be in that reflection
(Use the blue arrow thru the "=" sign and the white image of the limo under the "x".. that reflect to Towner's right... Elm should not be visible if the reflection is to the South...

Can we ID the things reflected with greater accuracy using images of Dealey?

[Jim Hargrove]

6 hours ago, John Kowalski said:

Jim:

Can you clarify something for me. John A. mentioned M.Oswald 1941 Nazis but Malcolm can't verify that, are they quoting different documents?

Checked Mary Ferrell for 104-10300-10086 and could not find it.

John,

I think I found it on MF's JFK database.  It's a needle in a haystack, but clicking on the link below will take you to a group of three pages.  The actual document, remarkably dark and blurry, appears to be page 2 in this set.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=54631#relPageId=1&tab=page

P.S. I'm reasonably sure this is the page Malcolm Blunt is referencing.  I'll send it to John A. and see if it matches anything in his memory.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Jim Hargrove