Ruth Paine on "The Assassination & Mrs. Paine" film: "Well done, but powerfully awful"

[Matt Allison]

8 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

And please do not tell me you have no questions at all about poor Ruth's Stanislavski style perofrmance about Oswald actually using her typewriter to type a letter.  And her three different stories about how she noticed what was in the letter? 

Of course I have questions. But the idea that Ruth Paine was one of the primary plotters to kill JFK makes no sense to me at all.

It is easy to create suspicions about people; really easy. But we're talking about a woman that got in trouble with the IRS because she withheld money from them on the grounds she disagreed with the amount the government spends on weapons and war lol

[Matt Allison]

I believe the Ruth Paine story is about Marina.

LHO (or killing JFK) wasn't her interest.

[Joe Bauer]

Greg D.

You didn't mention Ruth publicly stating under oath how she was "greatly offended" that Lee O. would dare to use her typewriter without asking.

In the trial of Lee Harvey Oswald, Lee's defense attorney Gerry Spence got Ruth to admit not just her dislike of Lee but her real anger about Lee using her typewriter without asking. Ruth's facial expression when she said she was offended by Lee's use of her typewriter said it all. She was jaw dropped appalled! The gall of that bum!

This Oswald anger issue and other negative feelings Ruth harbored toward Lee could have very well played a part of her draft letter copying motivation and her decisions as to when to reveal the draft letter and to whom imo.

The draft letter itself and it's contents gave Ruth even more reason to dislike Lee and even wonder if he may be something of a spy!

Marina revealed more personal things to Ruth than she or Marina ever shared imo.

Things involving her and Lee. We know this because Ruth stated she and Marina talked.

My guess is there was even more negative things shared by Marina regards Lee and Ruth grew to more than dislike him. And just another reason to dislike Lee...did Lee ever offer Ruth any monies to help with her added expenses in housing and feeding Marina, Junie and sometime Lee himself...diapers included and time and gas in driving Marina to stores and doctors?

I once heard Ruth mention having to spend a noticeable amount of extra funds for those expenses...which means it was an issue with her.

I would think the opposite regards your take on Michael Paine.

I would think he would be much more concerned about the Lee Oswald draft letter than you believe.

I am sure Ruth showed it to him soon after she found it.

Lee shows too much interest in Russian affairs and help that I think Michael Paine would have been suspiciously concerned about.

This strange guy was living in the same home with his wife and children.

Could you imagine how Ruth and Michael would have reacted toward Lee if they had seen the backyard photos? Holding rifle and gun and Russian propaganda newspapers?

Looking like an ominous assassin in his all black attire?

I think Ruth would have been like Mrs. Kravitz in the TV show "Bewitched!"

Wide eyed paranoid whenever Lee showed up. Nervously watching his every move and sleeping with one eye and ear open until he left with Buell Frazier on Monday morning.

And lastly, what are your thoughts on Ruth's personal feelings when Marina was taken away by the authorities right after 11,22,1963 and especially being told that Marina chose not to return to Ruth's home at all even when she wasn't being held against her wishes?

I can picture Ruth at some point when she heard Marina wasn't returning...asking whether this was Marina's own decision. If I were Ruth, I would be hurt by this. Feeling I had done so much for Marina, Lee and their child and feeling Marina didn't appreciate my extraordinarily generous efforts to help her.

 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Jeff Carter]

3 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

According to Ruth's testimony Lee left his draft letter all day just lying out in the open on that desk secretary on Sun Nov 10. If that testimony is true, and I do not doubt that it is, that just looks intentional on Lee's part. Ruth reads it, makes the copy, with consideration of reporting it to the FBI, wonders if Lee could be some sort of spy (i.e. for the Soviets).  

 

Sunday November 10 was also the day that Oswald, according to Ruth Paine's timeline, "spent the entire day...watching television." Michael Paine also complained to the Warren Commission: “ I think that weekend I remember stepping over him as he sat in front of the TV..."   (WCH II, p. 412)

The Dallas Cowboys played in San Francisco that afternoon, in one of the better remembered games of the early years of the franchise. With the west coast starting time, the game continued into the very late afternoon in Texas, which may have influenced the Paines' annoyance. 

That behaviour needs to be factored into a consideration of this letter - presumably left out all day. Also that it was Oswald in front of the television - not the letter - which is the focus of attention at the time.

[Greg Doudna]

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Are you aware of the whole Hootkins affair, which happened before the assassination?

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/28181-the-coveralls-wearing-customer-in-shasteens-barbershop-in-irving-was-that-oswald-or-a-mistaken-identification/

[James DiEugenio]

2 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

Of course I have questions. But the idea that Ruth Paine was one of the primary plotters to kill JFK makes no sense to me at all.

It is easy to create suspicions about people; really easy. But we're talking about a woman that got in trouble with the IRS because she withheld money from them on the grounds she disagreed with the amount the government spends on weapons and war lol

And Clay Shaw was a simon pure international trader who;

1. Never worked for the CIA

2. Voted for JFK since he was a Roosevelt/Wilson/ Kennedy liberal.

Both were complete BS.

[Ron Bulman]

2 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

But the idea that Ruth Paine was one of the primary plotters to kill JFK makes no sense to me at all.

Matt, I and I think many on here don't believe Ruth was a primary plotter.  But, from the reading I've done, trying to use logic to interpret it, the preponderance of circumstantial evidence is overwhelming that at a minimum she was used.  Personally, I believe she was advised to take in and observe Marina, for potential Russian contacts.  Lee, when he was around.  Given her and Michaels family ties.

When the assassination happened, and Lee's name came up she and Michael knew who was behind it.  When it came to the cover up, they knew which side their bread was buttered on.

[Kirk Gallaway]

3 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Matt, this is nonsense.  And i think it comes from the attempts by people like Kirk and Jonathan to polarize the issue.

Are you aware of the whole Hootkins affair, which happened before the assassination?

Are you aware of the whole Paine/Odum Minox camera charade, which was done at Hoover's request to disguise the fact that Oswald had a Minox?

And please do not tell me you have no questions at all about poor Ruth's Stanislavski style perofrmance about Oswald actually using her typewriter to type a letter.  And her three different stories about how she noticed what was in the letter? 

Let us try and be a bit objective and open.

People like me Jim? You still haven't answered one question I've posed to you.

Speaking just for myself. I'm not trying to polarize anybody. There are a lot of very legitimate, unanswered questions with the Paines. A positive development  is that we definitely haven't delved as much into this in all of 7 years I've been here as we have now.  For example, a lot of people just assumed that Ruth was the sole source who put  LHO in the TSBD up to now.

One thing I have noticed is that this plot, and the nature of the relationships hasn't been thought out much in any detail, that anybody who holds it, is willing to commit to. I expected better answers to questions I've had. But there have been no real answers.

And that's ok, but we haven't all but sewed this up, on suspicion alone, which at least I've thought was the prevailing attitude for 7 years. We're in a place, where we have very sketchy material and have to build a case, and there's legitimate disagreement about a how  good a case it is, and  the burden to those who think it's a potentially good case is to pursue leads to make it a better case. 

[Matt Allison]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

And Clay Shaw was a simon pure international trader who;

1. Never worked for the CIA

2. Voted for JFK since he was a Roosevelt/Wilson/ Kennedy liberal.

IMO, no way can you lump RP in with Clay Shaw.

We have plenty of evidence tying Clay Shaw directly to nefarious dealings w LHO, the fascist right, and intelligence work.

We have only theoretical familial ties in that regard with RP. And we have no evidence whatsoever that she was a fascist sympathizer.

These two people are not the same.

[Allen Lowe]

47 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

IMO, no way can you lump RP in with Clay Shaw.

We have plenty of evidence tying Clay Shaw directly to nefarious dealings w LHO, the fascist right, and intelligence work.

We have only theoretical familial ties in that regard with RP. And we have no evidence whatsoever that she was a fascist sympathizer.

These two people are not the same.

Wrong, we have her direct  ties to Lee Harvey Oswald, who we know was a CIA asset as part of a false defector  program, and who came back to the USA to help destabilize the Fairplay for Cuba committee. So she had CIA ties right there and that’s not speculative.
 

Gotcha on this one.

[Jonathan Cohen]

35 minutes ago, Allen Lowe said:

Wrong, we have her direct  ties to Lee Harvey Oswald, who we know was a CIA asset as part of a false defector  program, and who came back to the USA to help destabilize the Fairplay for Cuba committee. So she had CIA ties right there and that’s not speculative.
 

Gotcha on this one.

"Who we know was a CIA asset as part of a false defector program" ? You have absolutely ZERO hard evidence that this is true. Oswald's behavior in Russia also shows no evidence of him being complicit in such a thing.

[Matt Allison]

40 minutes ago, Allen Lowe said:

Wrong, we have her direct  ties to Lee Harvey Oswald.. So she had CIA ties right there

So everyone connected to LHO automatically had CIA ties? That's a lot of people there lol.

This is the brilliant analysis you choose to share with the world. Ok...

[John Cotter]

7 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

Of course I have questions. But the idea that Ruth Paine was one of the primary plotters to kill JFK makes no sense to me at all.

It is easy to create suspicions about people; really easy. But we're talking about a woman that got in trouble with the IRS because she withheld money from them on the grounds she disagreed with the amount the government spends on weapons and war lol

Yes indeed, Matt, the conspirators were just so lucky that the building from where JFK was purportedly shot was the same building in which the man they’d been sheep-dipping for seven months worked.

[David Von Pein]

11 minutes ago, John Cotter said:

...the conspirators were just so lucky...

What "conspirators"?

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by David Von Pein

[John Cotter]

12 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

What "conspirators"?

 

The conspirators who, for example, accompanied and/or chaperoned Oswald on at least some of the sheep-dipping capers or at least organised those capers on which Oswald was accompanied.

Are you denying that those capers ever occurred?