Jefferson Morley on A Major Break Coming in the JFK Assassination Story

[Bob Ness]

17 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

 I don't find it surprising that the name of an actual defector who had been in the Marines a week or two before would appear in all sorts of files.

 

I think you're missing the point Lance. The fact that a detector's file was routed around CIA'S Soviet Russia department IS the problem. A 201 wasn't created for Oswald for a year after his defection and the directive to bypass SR to the Office of Security was initiated prior to his defection. No other defector was treated that way. Any internal search for information on Oswald would illuminate a mole trying to find details of the defector for his Russian handler. Oswald would not have to actually be aware of this and in fact it would be better if he wasn't. He only had to be marginally interesting to the Soviets so they would inquire with their sources in the US. The 60's version of Aldrich Ames.

Standard routing of 201s would allow for routine access and wouldn't pinpoint anyone. OS files are closely watched with limited access so as soon as somebody rang and said "Hey you got a 201 on Oswald?" the cat's out of the bag. That's why Bagley and other's antennae went up. They dangled him to see who would report beforehand. Doesn't mean he didn't shoot JFK. But just because he doesn't look like James Bond saving the world or whoever people are trying to say he would be like if he was a CIA asset doesn't mean he wasn't. It's suspicious to say the least.

[James DiEugenio]

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Well maybe Lance doesn't have to worry. But people who grow up poor learn to hold on tight with what little money they have. They're not gonna needlessly waste a hundred bucks for a brighter room with thicker carpeting.

(Think of all the great burger upgrades you could buy for $100. Mmm... burgers. )

 

Another nice one Sandy. 😃

[Ron Bulman]

5 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Why would cheapskate Oswald pay $200 and $120 for four star hotels when he could have stayed at a cheap hotel for $60, or hostel for $6? (Today's dollars all.)

 

I'd think a cheap hotel itself in 1963 would have been $5 or so.

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Why would cheapskate Oswald pay $200 and $120 for four star hotels when he could have stayed at a cheap hotel for $60, or hostel for $6? (Today's dollars all.)

I'd think a cheap hotel itself in 1963 would have been $5 or so.

 

Ron,

All the amounts I show are in 2022 dollars. The $60 hotel would have cost $5.86 in 1959,  and the hostel 59 cents. If you google inflation calculator you will find a bunch of calculators that will show what things cost in any given year. Though not perfect because the inflation rate is different for each product or service.

 

[Gerry Down]

6 hours ago, Bob Ness said:

I think you're missing the point Lance. The fact that a detector's file was routed around CIA'S Soviet Russia department IS the problem. A 201 wasn't created for Oswald for a year after his defection and the directive to bypass SR to the Office of Security was initiated prior to his defection.

I'm not sure that's accurate. The CIA had no file at all on Oswald prior to his defection to Russia. It was the defection itself that caused any file at all to be set up at the CIA. Therefore no file at CIA was "initiated prior to his defection". 

[Gerry Down]

7 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

Tom, some great points there and one thing jumped out at me:

"One of the reports was written on 8/7/63, two days before Oswald’s arrest. The only difference in this report is that instead of “no information” they wrote “no corroborative information” had been received on the FPCC in New Orleans"

If Oswald did ask for someone specific at the FBI following his arrest, it would imply he had already had some contact with the NO Office...it that were the case Oswald might have given them some info about the FPCC - which as of the 8th they might still be trying to corroborate.  It would not be at all unusual not to mention a source name in a summary report, especially if it was a new source for them.   There may be a simpler explanation for the use of the word but it certainly is interesting.

Given the restrictions on DeBureys testimony its pretty evident they were shielding something about Oswald and what would have been really embarrassing is not just his being on file but the actual destruction of file documents on him - I tend to see the FBI destroying documents rather than faking them, especially if other agencies had not been copied (not unusual since they tended to poach each ours sources). 

Well spotted Larry.

This fits in with my theory that Oswald was a "potential" informant but not risen up to the level of "provisional" informant in New Orleans by Warren DeBrueys. I think DeBrueys felt Oswalds FPCC chapter was fake and was playing along with Oswald sending him to Tulane with leaflets etc to see where it led. I think DeBrueys was more investigating who the hell Oswald was rather than considering him for any serious role as an informant. And in order to achieve this, DeBrueys played Oswald along making him think he was considering Oswald as a possible informant. This also had the side benefit that he might actually root out some pro-Castro individuals at Tulane along the way using those leaflets, which would be a nice bonus. 

The statement “no corroborative information” is potentially proof of DeBrueys mindset in this timeframe demonstrating that DeBrueys might have considered Oswald to just be an attention seeker of some sort with his fake FPCC chapter. 

[Larry Hancock]

I do think its significant but I also think Oswald may well have been running his own game, positioning himself to pass on information on the anti-Castro Cubans and their local supporters.  Of course since several of them were also sources for the FBI and even CIA that could only last so long. Still, if  you accept the Clinton incident, which would occurred relatively late in his time in NO then Oswald was really walking a tightrope, playing multiple roles.

[Gerry Down]

18 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

I do think its significant but I also think Oswald may well have been running his own game, positioning himself to pass on information on the anti-Castro Cubans and their local supporters.  Of course since several of them were also sources for the FBI and even CIA that could only last so long. Still, if  you accept the Clinton incident, which would occurred relatively late in his time in NO then Oswald was really walking a tightrope, playing multiple roles.

One angle I have difficulty understanding is the lake Pontchartrain training camp. Orest Pena seemed convinced LHO was connected to it, but to the best of my knowledge didn't elaborate on this. I find it difficult to believe LHO was at this camp as LHO was building a public profile with the FPCC at this time so I'm not sure how he could expect to become part of the gang at the training camp. And I can't see DeBrueys sending LHO to the camp to spy on the anti-castro Cubans there as I don't think DeBrueys trusted LHO enough to send him to the camp. So I can't quiet figure out why Pena was tying LHO to the camp.

What did you have in mind when you say LHO might have been informing on anti-castro Cubans while in New Orleans?

[Larry Hancock]

As far as the "camp" is concerned its important to keep in mind that it was a very small, very ill equipped place, basically a house...set up for the MDC and largely a scam (with talk of big donors but no money ever surfacing) so with very little money actually around it.  Some of the local Cubans did take food out there but it only lasted a few weeks until the raid on the abortive bombing mission from the McClaney property scared them off and the volunteers were returned to Miami on a bus. That camp was never raided, the McClaney place was but that was from a tip out of Miami.

Its also important to remember that several of the AC Cubans were already sources for the FBI, CIA or both so who said what for what purpose is murky at best. 

My view is that Oswald was a Cuban revolution supporter and would have possibly reported to the FBI on any gossip he heard about their military activities to the FBI, do obstruct their military activities.

Why Pena or Arnesto Rodriquez - who also mentioned Oswald knowing about a "camp" - would have thought that is unclear to me but we have to remember Oswald was also reported associating with Cubans from outside Miami who the locals did not know.  If David and I are right, that might well have included either Carlos or Victor Hernandez, who were both in the area in conjunction with the McClaney mission. What they might have passed in an approach to Oswald would be pure speculation.

 

[Bob Ness]

2 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

I'm not sure that's accurate. The CIA had no file at all on Oswald prior to his defection to Russia. It was the defection itself that caused any file at all to be set up at the CIA. Therefore no file at CIA was "initiated prior to his defection". 

Uh yeah, my details may be foggy on that, but it was the lack of a report to SR that raised eyebrows. I think the routing was changed prior to not necessarily the documents. But I believe the routing may have hidden any that did get created as it went to Angleton's little folder that never has been seen. Something like that. I'm traveling so it isn't easy to check at the moment.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Bob Ness

[Bob Ness]

deleted

Edited December 14, 2022 by Bob Ness

[Gerry Down]

1 hour ago, Larry Hancock said:

As far as the "camp" is concerned its important to keep in mind that it was a very small, very ill equipped place, basically a house...set up for the MDC and largely a scam (with talk of big donors but no money ever surfacing) so with very little money actually around it.  Some of the local Cubans did take food out there but it only lasted a few weeks until the raid on the abortive bombing mission from the McClaney property scared them off and the volunteers were returned to Miami on a bus. That camp was never raided, the McClaney place was but that was from a tip out of Miami.

Its also important to remember that several of the AC Cubans were already sources for the FBI, CIA or both so who said what for what purpose is murky at best. 

My view is that Oswald was a Cuban revolution supporter and would have possibly reported to the FBI on any gossip he heard about their military activities to the FBI, do obstruct their military activities.

Why Pena or Arnesto Rodriquez - who also mentioned Oswald knowing about a "camp" - would have thought that is unclear to me but we have to remember Oswald was also reported associating with Cubans from outside Miami who the locals did not know.  If David and I are right, that might well have included either Carlos or Victor Hernandez, who were both in the area in conjunction with the McClaney mission. What they might have passed in an approach to Oswald would be pure speculation.

 

Let me throw out this possibility to you...

When Oswald tried to infiltrate Bringuier at his shop, I don't think DeBrueys had anything to do with this. This is because when Oswald got arrested and asked for an FBI agent, it was DeBrueys day off and Quigley had to go down to him who didn't know Oswald. And so Oswald was stuck having to talk to an FBI agent he didn't know. I think if the Bringuier incident had been done with the planning of DeBrueys, then they would have arranged the leafleting incident on a day that DeBrueys was actually working.

Back in Aug 1962, DeBrueys told Bringuier he could infiltrate his organization if he wanted to. Now in Aug 1963, it appeared someone was trying to infiltrate the DRE just like DeBrueys threatened. If Bringuier told Pena, or even if word got around, that Oswald had tried to infiltrate Bringuier and had offered to train anti-castro rebels for him, Pena might have thought that DeBrueys was using Oswald (remember Pena had seen DeBrueys together a few times at this stage) to infiltrate the two training camps. Like you said, the McClaney training camp was exposed by a tip-off from Miami but I don't think Pena knew this. Pena might have thought DeBrueys used Oswald to infiltrate the McClaney camp and was now using Oswald again to infiltrate the remaining training camp. 

This is why Pena developed such a bad opinion of DeBrueys. At one stage, I think he even called DeBrueys a communist. Pena thought DeBrueys had used Oswald to infiltrate the two training camps. After the assassination it would have become clear to Pena that was Oswald was indeed a communist, and from Penas perspective DeBrueys had been using him to infiltrate the training camps in New Orleans. 

I'm not sure about Arnesto Rodriguez. Maybe he thought the same as Pena. 

[Joe Bauer]

Kudos to those here who have so well researched Oswald in New Orleans, the NO FBI and the anti-Castro groups and individuals there and all their activities leading up to late 1963. 

Amazing and appreciated how much time and work these members have put into this Oswald truth seeking effort.

But what a crazy, crazy mix of "Casablanca" type intrigue and characters. Only a Cuban version and 100X more involved.

Even with it's own "Ricks Place" the Habana Bar And Lounge.

All running around with double and even triple layer secret identities and agendas. 

Hot headed anti-Castroites, Castro spies and counter spies, worked up Intel agencies, secret training camps, gun running, Oswald running around working up everyone, other odd intrigue characters like David Ferrie, Clay Shaw, Guy Bannister, Mafia big shot Marcello, Dr. Alton Oschner ... even big Jim Garrison trying to figure out who the heck was who and what the heck was going on.

What a circus!

Can't decide whether all this revealing research helps provide a clearer picture of what the heck was really going on down there in 1963 New Orleans ... or muddles it even more.

Personally, if I were there myself in the summer of 1963 I probably would have hung out with jive/hip/ beat talking, gay boy bailing out, city court case level N.O. attorney Dean Andrews.

Dancing by ourselves with a glass of bourbon in one hand and a miniature umbrella in the other to Dixieland music in night life jazz clubs. 

"Pipe the bimbo in red" ... "Pluckin me like a chicken, shuckin me like corn" " you dancin with a gorilla Jimbo."

Seriously, the idea of a JFK conspiracy being cooked up in that caldron of crazy hot headed JFK hating nefarious agenda extreme political view eccentric behavior characters in that drunkenly sinful, jazz blaring, mafia corrupted, shrimp gumbo obsessed and even voodoo cursed feeling mess of confused humanity city is a very plausible proposition...imo anyways.

 

 

 

 

[Bob Ness]

28 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Kudos to those here who have so well researched Oswald in New Orleans, the NO FBI and the anti-Castro groups and individuals there and all their activities leading up to late 1963. 

Amazing and appreciated how much time and work these members have put into this Oswald truth seeking effort.

But what a crazy, crazy mix of "Casablanca" type intrigue and characters. Only a Cuban version and 100X more involved.

Even with it's own "Ricks Place" the Habana Bar And Lounge.

All running around with double and even triple layer secret identities and agendas. 

Hot headed anti-Castroites, Castro spies and counter spies, worked up Intel agencies, secret training camps, gun running, Oswald running around working up everyone, other odd intrigue characters like David Ferrie, Clay Shaw, Guy Bannister, Mafia big shot Marcello, Dr. Alton Oschner ... even big Jim Garrison trying to figure out who the heck was who and what the heck was going on.

What a circus!

Can't decide whether all this revealing research helps provide a clearer picture of what the heck was really going on down there in 1963 New Orleans ... or muddles it even more.

Personally, if I were there myself in the summer of 1963 I probably would have hung out with jive/hip/ beat talking, gay boy bailing out, city court case level N.O. attorney Dean Andrews.

Dancing by ourselves with a glass of bourbon in one hand and a miniature umbrella in the other to Dixieland music in night life jazz clubs. 

"Pipe the bimbo in red" ... "Pluckin me like a chicken, shuckin me like corn" " you dancin with a gorilla Jimbo."

Seriously, the idea of a JFK conspiracy being cooked up in that caldron of crazy hot headed JFK hating nefarious agenda extreme political view eccentric behavior characters in that drunkenly sinful, jazz blaring, mafia corrupted, shrimp gumbo obsessed and even voodoo cursed feeling mess of confused humanity city is a very plausible proposition...imo anyways.

You're completely leaving out the Klan crazed, gun-toting, right wing, cross burning, Birch Society, Minutemen who made up the NO police department and other civic institutions. Just like Dallas.

[Tom Gram]

5 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

Well spotted Larry.

This fits in with my theory that Oswald was a "potential" informant but not risen up to the level of "provisional" informant in New Orleans by Warren DeBrueys. I think DeBrueys felt Oswalds FPCC chapter was fake and was playing along with Oswald sending him to Tulane with leaflets etc to see where it led. I think DeBrueys was more investigating who the hell Oswald was rather than considering him for any serious role as an informant. And in order to achieve this, DeBrueys played Oswald along making him think he was considering Oswald as a possible informant. This also had the side benefit that he might actually root out some pro-Castro individuals at Tulane along the way using those leaflets, which would be a nice bonus. 

The statement “no corroborative information” is potentially proof of DeBrueys mindset in this timeframe demonstrating that DeBrueys might have considered Oswald to just be an attention seeker of some sort with his fake FPCC chapter. 

Oswald flushing out subversives at Tulane is exactly what future Garrison investigator and CIA informant William Martin did for Guy Banister, and it’s something that Banister told the FBI he was interested in: 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=81057#relPageId=20

So I think it’s a bit more likely that Oswald was sent to Tulane by Banister/Ferrie than DeBrueys. Also, if we believe Orestes Pena that Oswald was meeting with DeBrueys, he was also meeting INS/Customs people like Wendell Roache and David Smith, which Roache basically admitted to in his first phone call with the Church Committee.

This is speculation, but if Oswald was just trying to spin some version of the A.J. Hidell story he told SA Quigley and snitch on himself regarding the FPCC I feel like we would have heard about it by now. 

Edited December 14, 2022 by Tom Gram