David Atlee Phillips: Oswald never went to Mexico!

[Benjamin Cole]

2 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

There's this HSCA testimony provided by Marina Oswald, which lends support to the idea that LHO did, indeed, on multiple occasions in 1963, go somewhere to "target practice" with his rifle:


 

 

DVP---

Did LHO have ammo to practice with? 

Even in Texas in 1963, can people just practice shooting a gun anywhere? Would he not have to go to a range (sans car)? Was there a secluded undeveloped stretch of land walking distance from LHO's home? 

Could these sessions with a raincoat-rifle get up been a practice run for the Walker shooting? 

How much faith do you have in Marina's testimony?  

[Tom Gram]

6 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Were some of Lee's answers for the purpose of protecting Marina in his answers in the interrogations?

Steve Thomas, I read the thread you cited, https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/23156-lets-get-our-story-straight/ (Oct. 25, 2916) and although I am not sure what point you meant specifically, one thing came through to me there from you that was a stunner: your suggestion to compare CE 788, the Hidell money order for the rifle of March 12, 1963; and CE 796 the signature of Alek Hidell on the fake Selective Service card with Lee's photo, that Alek Hidell signature admitted by Marina to have been written by her (both found at https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=1&tab=toc); and HSCA 8, 54, samples of Marina handwriting "Alek Hidell" (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=961#relPageId=378).  

I couldn't believe my eyes! That Hidell money order of March 12 for $21.45 purchased from the downtown Post Office at 10:30 am to pay Klein's in Chicago for the rifle which has always been cited as impossible to have been bought by Oswald since he was at work at Jaggers starting at 8 a.m. that morning . . . the handwriting on that money order is Marina's handwriting--Marina bought that money order! The problem of logistics of Lee buying it is gone. 

And, slow learner here, I realized you have been on to this a long time, as here further from you: https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/24667-did-marina-order-the-rifle/ (Feb 26, 2018). This then ties in to Tom Gram's more recent solid work on the post office forwardings documentation and Marina.

Am I missing something? The objection that Lee could not have purchased that March 12 Klein's money order based on the 10:30 am time is gone, because it was not Lee but Marina's handwriting indicating her as the purchaser of that money order.

It means, if Marina bought that money order, that it supports the rifle was ordered and did come to Lee and Marina, though by a slightly different mechanism than in the Warren Commission reconstruction.

It also raises this possibility for a method in the madness of the whole issue of Lee's lies under interrogation, so puzzling because Lee was truthful on many matters in those interrogations, then would lie, then revert to being truthful again: is it possible that every time Lee lied in those interrogations he was doing so to protect and cover up for Marina, who had become the true love of his life? For whom he would do anything rather than throw her under a bus? Is that a viable possible narrative?

A little digression from the Mexico City and Holmes Nov 24 subject I realize, but I couldn't tell what your point was directly and then I saw this other thing. How interesting what you showed of the match in handwriting of the Marina Alek Hidell signatures and the March 12 Klein's money order, Steve Thomas! (How could the FBI, Warren Commission, and conspiracy researchers have missed that? It looks just obvious. Why does there continue to be talk that that March 12 money order must be forged because Lee could not have bought it at the time and place the Post Office sold it?)

 

As you know, I agree with Steve and think Marina is the most likely candidate for both mailing the money order and picking the rifle up from the post office. Her testimony and statements on the rifle and the Hidell alias are sketchy as all hell, and the WC did not ask her a single question about P.O. Box 2915, how Oswald acquired the rifle, or even just how Oswald received his mail in Dallas, which is just insane.

Marina obviously didn’t have a car, but on March 12th she did have access to a ride to the Post Office because she was hanging out with Ruth Paine that day. 

One troubling implication of Marina ordering the rifle - if she really did - is the Walker note. The Walker note implies that as of the first week of April, Oswald thought that Marina had never been to the Post Office. The WC never followed up on this and avoided the topic of the Dallas Post Office with Marina like the plague, which considering the Walker note, Harry Holmes’ 12/17/63 report which stated that Oswald admitted he’d given Marina one of the keys to the box on occasion to pick up the mail, and the fact that Marina filed her own CoA from Box 2915 (that was never entered into evidence), is pretty telling, IMO. 

Both WC questioned document examiners did give the opinion that the handwriting on the money order was Oswald’s - except for the Hidell signature. A rarely discussed yet very interesting fact IMO is that neither Alwyn Cole nor James Cadigan gave any testimony whatsoever on the money order Hidell signature under oath. 

To tie this in to your question about Holmes, I think it’s very possible that Kelley and Holmes wanted to interrogate Oswald separately from the FBI and DPD. The cooperation between the SS and Postal Inspection Service in the first few days of the assassination is remarkably suspicious - all the missing postal records on Oswald and Marina that were provably discovered by Holmes and other Postal Inspectors look to have disappeared in Secret Service custody. 

That said, the evidence suggests that Holmes was perfectly willing to perjure himself to the point of turning over an almost certainly altered document to the WC - so I don’t think it’s that much of a stretch to think that he’d make up the bit about Oswald admitting to being in MC.

Again, I have no problem with Oswald being in MC, or even with Oswald admitting to it. I just don’t think Holmes is credible enough of a sole source to use as evidence on this without some sort of corroboration. 

I’ll end with a bit of self-indulgence. If Marina had a hand in ordering the rifle, how should we interpret her first-day affidavit? What does the affidavit actually say? 

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338563/m1/1/

Of course, Marina later claimed that she initially lied, and, through a clusterf$!?* of contradictory statements, that Oswald owned a rifle throughout 1963. She even let slip in a Feb ‘64 FBI report that Oswald received the rifle through the mail - but there was no follow-up whatsoever on how she knew that by the FBI or WC. 

[David Von Pein]

7 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Did LHO have ammo to practice with? 

I would think so. But even if he didn't, he could have gotten some ammo at a rifle range someplace, couldn't he? I don't see that as a problem. Except for the fact that LHO, by all accounts, was an el-cheapo penny-pincher.

 

7 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Even in Texas in 1963, can people just practice shooting a gun anywhere? Would he not have to go to a range (sans car)? Was there a secluded undeveloped stretch of land walking distance from LHO's home? 

I have no idea where the closest rifle range would have been to LHO's Neely St. apartment. Anybody know?

 

7 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Could these sessions with a raincoat-rifle get up been a practice run for the Walker shooting? 

Could be.

 

7 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

How much faith do you have in Marina's testimony?  

Quite a bit. I don't see any reason to just toss Marina's testimony out the window.

 

[Matt Allison]

9 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

One troubling implication of Marina ordering the rifle - if she really did - is the Walker note. The Walker note implies that as of the first week of April, Oswald thought that Marina had never been to the Post Office.

This is an outstanding catch. Kudos, Tom.

[Matt Allison]

10 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

But even if he didn't, he could have gotten some ammo at a rifle range someplace, couldn't he?

Getting MC ammo wasn't as breezy a notion as you imply here.

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Matt Allison said:

Getting MC ammo wasn't as breezy a notion as you imply here.

Yes, If I recall correctly, there were only one or two shops in the Dallas area that sold MC ammo. Neither remembered LHO, although that is hardly conclusive. 

Marina also once testified that LHO went out to practice shooting at "leaves" and other items.

Marina's testimony to the WC (even that which we know of) was wildly inconsistent, and also to the HSCA. Unfortunately, she is not a reliable witness. 

WC lawyers despaired of using Marina as a witness, even without a strong cross by a defense attorney. 

Marina's final conclusions are that her first husband was not the assassin of JFK. Conclusive? No. Just the way Marina is. 

[Bob Ness]

2 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

Getting MC ammo wasn't as breezy a notion as you imply here.

Correct. Not at all. And the cost of enough ammo to get up to speed for a poor person like LHO is substantial.

Edited January 2, 2023 by Bob Ness

[Joseph McBride]

https://www.nytimes.com/1977/12/02/archives/fbirecords-trace-oswald-and-bullets-newlyreleased-files-describe.html

 

The ammunition the Warren Commission claimed

was used in the assassination was soon traced

back to the CIA. But then quickly a CYA memo

appeared claiming half of the lot was sold

to the public. See the NY Times article on

that above. 

Edited January 3, 2023 by Joseph McBride

[Greg Doudna]

6 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

As you know, I agree with Steve and think Marina is the most likely candidate for both mailing the money order and picking the rifle up from the post office. Her testimony and statements on the rifle and the Hidell alias are sketchy as all hell, and the WC did not ask her a single question about P.O. Box 2915, how Oswald acquired the rifle, or even just how Oswald received his mail in Dallas, which is just insane.

Marina obviously didn’t have a car, but on March 12th she did have access to a ride to the Post Office because she was hanging out with Ruth Paine that day. 

One troubling implication of Marina ordering the rifle - if she really did - is the Walker note. The Walker note implies that as of the first week of April, Oswald thought that Marina had never been to the Post Office. The WC never followed up on this and avoided the topic of the Dallas Post Office with Marina like the plague, which considering the Walker note, Harry Holmes’ 12/17/63 report which stated that Oswald admitted he’d given Marina one of the keys to the box on occasion to pick up the mail, and the fact that Marina filed her own CoA from Box 2915 (that was never entered into evidence), is pretty telling, IMO. 

Both WC questioned document examiners did give the opinion that the handwriting on the money order was Oswald’s - except for the Hidell signature. A rarely discussed yet very interesting fact IMO is that neither Alwyn Cole nor James Cadigan gave any testimony whatsoever on the money order Hidell signature under oath. 

To tie this in to your question about Holmes, I think it’s very possible that Kelley and Holmes wanted to interrogate Oswald separately from the FBI and DPD. The cooperation between the SS and Postal Inspection Service in the first few days of the assassination is remarkably suspicious - all the missing postal records on Oswald and Marina that were provably discovered by Holmes and other Postal Inspectors look to have disappeared in Secret Service custody. 

That said, the evidence suggests that Holmes was perfectly willing to perjure himself to the point of turning over an almost certainly altered document to the WC - so I don’t think it’s that much of a stretch to think that he’d make up the bit about Oswald admitting to being in MC.

Again, I have no problem with Oswald being in MC, or even with Oswald admitting to it. I just don’t think Holmes is credible enough of a sole source to use as evidence on this without some sort of corroboration. 

I’ll end with a bit of self-indulgence. If Marina had a hand in ordering the rifle, how should we interpret her first-day affidavit? What does the affidavit actually say? 

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338563/m1/1/

Of course, Marina later claimed that she initially lied, and, through a clusterf$!?* of contradictory statements, that Oswald owned a rifle throughout 1963. She even let slip in a Feb ‘64 FBI report that Oswald received the rifle through the mail - but there was no follow-up whatsoever on how she knew that by the FBI or WC. 

Tom, thanks for the state of the art on these issues, some good points, not all I had duly considered. Thanks to you I'm returning to being baffled about that March 12, 1963 money order, thanks a lot 🙂. 

[Joe Bauer]

14 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

I would think so. But even if he didn't, he could have gotten some ammo at a rifle range someplace, couldn't he? I don't see that as a problem. Except for the fact that LHO, by all accounts, was an el-cheapo penny-pincher.

People forget that Oswald did tip at least one service provider.

His taxi fare from the bus stop near Dealey to his N. Beckley room was 95 cents.

Lee gave the driver a dollar bill and told him to keep the nickel change.

Seriously, Marina did state in her WC testimony ( or later testimony or interviews? ) that Lee would go to the park with his rifle and shoot leaves.

And that Lee once went somewhere near "Lop Field" to practice shooting also.

Clearly Marina was all over the map in her WC testimony and during the relentless questioning of her previously.

Contradicting herself endlessly.

However, I think most everyone completely miss a starkly obvious reality truth regards Marina.

Truly, honestly, try to put yourself into her traumatized reality shoes during all this time.

I don't think anyone can imagine the incredible stress circumstances she was under.

Feeling terrified for herself and her children's well being. Feeling she may be hated for being married to JFK's anointed killer? Maybe deported?

Maybe she herself would be charged with crimes like not reporting her husband's Walker shooting incident?

Shuffled to and fro. Questioned relentlessly. Baby just months old?

Monstrously over-bearing mother-in-law trying to control her.

Just 22 years old? Completely poverty stricken. No family here to support her?

Marina had to go through all that with no make up, unkempt hair and saddest of all facing everyone with a glaring missing tooth in her front teeth? 

She was very self-conscious of her bad teeth. Would not smile because of them.

How humiliating for her in that regards alone.

Marina was also self-conscious/embarrassed about her poor English speaking skills.

Jackie Kennedy had a nervous breakdown immediately after JFK had his head blown apart inches from her eyes. She was in traumatizing shock. Had to take sedatives. Had tons of support.

Marina had nothing and no one to help her get through her own living nightmare.

Her and Lee's supposed mother and father figure caring friends Jeanne and George De Mohrenchildst got the hell out of Dodge and ran off to Haiti leaving Marina to face her nightmare all alone.

The fact she did as well as she did showed incredible inner strength and courage imo.

Her conflicting testimony was justified under all those circumstances imo.

Most 22 year old barely English speaking women and with two babies and under unimaginable fear stress ( my husband killed a President? ) shoes would have collapsed emotionally at some point imo.

 

Edited January 2, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Guest]

On 1/1/2023 at 5:26 PM, David Von Pein said:

There's this HSCA testimony provided by Marina Oswald, which lends support to the idea that LHO did, indeed, on multiple occasions in 1963, go somewhere to "target practice" with his rifle:


 

 

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Mart Hall]

On 12/31/2022 at 8:28 PM, Steve Roe said:

His Cuban Visa application. Mirabal (Cuban Consulate in MXC) testified to the HSCA that he saw the application and it was legit. It was Oswald, no doubt. 

Thanks for your response. It motivated me to study Mirabal's HSCA testimony and there's no way I'd believe it was Oswald based on that.  

Mirabal did state that he saw the application but he did not verify that the photograph on the application matched the individual who submitted the application. 

Mirabal believes that the Oswald who applied was from the first moment trying to cause a provocation but despite being only 4 metres from Oswald he claims not to have observed him with any great deal of interest. 

 

The final comment in the paragraph above sounds to have been too carefully crafted in my opinion.

Lopez said it was not Oswald and he dealt with the applicant on each occasion. 

I also read back through David Josephs' detailed work on Oswald and Mexico.

I fail to see how anyone can be certain that it was LHO who attended the USSR and Cuban consulate. There is a lack of credible evidence for me. In this particular incidence if LHO was there I believe that there should be solid, high quality and incontrovertible evidence to support that. 

[Gene Kelly]

12 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

Fidel Castro is dead and the country of Cuba is a non-entity politically. If Russo says he has evidence Castro effected the JFKA, then let's f*cking see it.

Matt

For the record, I don't believe any of this. Gus Russo is not a credible source or researcher.   He has been involved in a number of prominent disinformation projects, and ranks up there with Gerald Posner, Phillip Shenon and other purveyors of bad information ... defenders of the Warren Commission and proponents of the ludicrous Castro-did-it theme. 

Gene  

[David Von Pein]

5 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Marina did state in her WC testimony that Lee would go to the park with his rifle and shoot leaves.

And that Lee once went somewhere near "Lop Field" to practice shooting also.

Clearly Marina was all over the map in her WC testimony and during the relentless questioning of her previously.

Contradicting herself endlessly.

However, I think most everyone completely miss a starkly obvious reality truth regards Marina.

Truly, honestly, try to put yourself into her traumatized reality shoes during all this time.

I don't think anyone can imagine the incredible stress circumstances she was under.

Feeling terrified for herself and her children's well being. Feeling she may be hated for being married to JFK's anointed killer? Maybe deported?

Maybe she herself would be charged with crimes like not reporting her husband's Walker shooting incident?

Shuffled to and fro. Questioned relentlessly. Baby just months old?

Monstrously over-bearing mother-in-law trying to control her.

22 years old? Completely poverty stricken. No family here to support her?

Marina had to go through all that with no make up, unkempt hair and saddest of all facing everyone with a glaring missing tooth in her front teeth? 

She was very self-conscious of her bad teeth. Would not smile because of them.

How humiliating for her in that regards alone.

Marina was also self-conscious/embarrassed about her poor English speaking skills.

Jackie Kennedy had a nervous breakdown immediately after JFK had his head blown apart inches from her eyes. She was in traumatizing shock. Had to take sedatives. Had tons of support.

Marina had nothing and no one to help her get through her own living nightmare.

Her and Lee's supposed mother and father figure caring friends Jeanne and George De Mohrenchildst got the hell out of Dodge and ran off to Haiti leaving Marina to face her nightmare all alone.

The fact she did as well as she did showed incredible inner strength and courage imo.

Her conflicting testimony was justified under all those circumstances imo.

Most 22 year old barely English speaking women and with two babies in her ( my husband killed a President? ) shoes would have collapsed mentally.

 

Thanks, Joe, for that very well-thought-out post. I agree with just about everything you said here. Except for one thing: your criticism of the DeMohrenschildts. They didn't move to Haiti after  the assassination. They moved there in May of '63, IIRC, which was months before Marina's "nightmare" began. Isn't that right? Correct me on the timeline if I'm mistaken.

Bonus Marina Video From 1964 (with Marina being very self-conscious about that missing front tooth):

 

Edited January 2, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Guest]

Bye

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette