Allen Dulles and his Nazi Pals in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[Matthew Koch]

12 minutes ago, Bob Ness said:

Best you could do? What a joke.

Bob is Okay with NATO bombing Libya, and violating their borders TIL.. 

[W. Niederhut]

4 hours ago, Bob Ness said:

And this has what to do with Ukraine? Perhaps a geography lesson is needed. If you for a minute think I supported those efforts you're mistaken.

Speaking of cheerleading... what makes you cheer on the annihilation of an innocent population in Ukraine?

Chris needs more than a geography lesson.  He needs a lesson in the history of Russia during the past century.  Based on his comments, I don't believe that Chris has really studied or understood Solzhenitsyn's work, including the Gulag Archipelago and the Red Wheel trilogy.

One of Solzhenitsyn's observations was that Stalin normalized sociopathy and criminality while criminalizing dissent.  Putin is a product of that sociopathic political culture.  His father was an NKVD Destruction Brigade member.

Our local Putin apologists seem naive and poorly informed about;

1) the horrific, genocidal history of Stalinism before, during, and after WWII, and

2) the 21st century transformation of the former Soviet Union into Putin's neo-Stalinist police state.

I was told (by a Russian bishop) that our late Russian Orthodox Archbishop Anthony of San Francisco, and other Russian Orthodox Christians, actually hoped during WWII that the N-a-z-i Wehrmacht would liberate Russia from the bloody Stalinist yoke!

Strange but true.  And most Ukrainians did not want to be re-subjected to the horrors of Stalinism after 1942.  Neither did the Estonians, Latvians, and Lithuanians.

Does that make them Yahtzees?

Who could blame them?

In addition to the Gulag Archipelago, I would highly recommend I.M. Andreyev's carefully documented history of the Bolshevik persecution of the Russian Orthodox Church after 1917-- Russia's Catacomb Saints.

(BTW, where are the Hollywood movies about the 20th century Soviet genocide of its own citizens?)

As for the 21st century history of Putin's KGB-backed fascist police state, I'll reference, again, Catherine Belton's book, Putin's People.

Putin is no enlightened autocrat.  He's a neo-Stalinist graduate of the Yuri Andropov Institute.

 

 

[Lori Spencer]

There seem to be a lot of CIA defenders in our ranks — a rather surprising revelation in a community of Kennedy Assassination researchers! 
 

so, let me get this straight: 

CIA assassinating world leaders (including JFK, many of us believe) and doing regime changes around the world: BAD.

 

CIA arming and funding actual Yahtzee collaborators and terrorists in Ukraine for 75 years: GOOD. 
 

20th Century Cold War: BAD.

21st Century Cold War: GOOD? 
 

I suppose Arthur Schlesinger Jr. said it best when he opined that, “historians, like everyone else, are prisoners of their own experience.” 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Lori Spencer
Fixed typo

[Guest]

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

Chris needs more than a geography lesson.  He needs a lesson in the history of Russia during the past century.  Based on his comments, I don't believe that Chris has really studied or understood Solzhenitsyn's work, including the Gulag Archipelago and the Red Wheel trilogy.

One of Solzhenitsyn's observations was that Stalin normalized sociopathy and criminality while criminalizing dissent.  Putin is a product of that sociopathic political culture.  His father was an NKVD Destruction Brigade member.

Our local Putin apologists seem naive and poorly informed about;

1) the horrific, genocidal history of Stalinism before, during, and after WWII, and

2) the 21st century transformation of the former Soviet Union into Putin's neo-Stalinist police state.

I was told (by a Russian bishop) that our late Russian Orthodox Archbishop Anthony of San Francisco, and other Russian Orthodox Christians, actually hoped during WWII that the N-a-z-i Wehrmacht would liberate Russia from the bloody Stalinist yoke!

Strange but true.  And most Ukrainians did not want to be re-subjected to the horrors of Stalinism after 1942.  Neither did the Estonians, Latvians, and Lithuanians.

Does that make them Yahtzees?

Who could blame them?

In addition to the Gulag Archipelago, I would highly recommend I.M. Andreyev's carefully documented history of the Bolshevik persecution of the Russian Orthodox Church after 1917-- Russia's Catacomb Saints.

(BTW, where are the Hollywood movies about the 20th century Soviet genocide of its own citizens?)

As for the 21st century history of Putin's KGB-backed fascist police state, I'll reference, again, Catherine Belton's book, Putin's People.

Putin is no enlightened autocrat.  He's a neo-Stalinist graduate of the Yuri Andropov Institute.

 

 

As for Bob, if a man of retirement age can’t understand a West Point educated, preeminent, respected geopolitics / international affairs expert like Mearsheimer, what hope do I have making him see the wood through the trees. 🙂 

William, this is always the sad part about discussion with some of you guys. You just mis-represent the position of your opponents, some deliberately and some accidentally, because your own brains function in this paradigm where they can only be for or against, winner or losers, heroes and villains, red or blue, black or white, etc. This flawed logic of; if you don’t support Zelenski or NATO expansionism with every molecule in your body, then you are a Russian agent or apologist, is so absurd. I don’t think there is a person on the forum who supports Russia or thinks that Putin is a good guy. 
 

There are a few of us who understand that there can be positions occupied other than the far end of each extreme. It’s amazing that there is this lack of nuance in your thinking. You have read and understood the Cuban Missile Crisis and seen where it takes us. You have seen western governments lie to us time and time again about foreign policy, gladio, coup d’etats, funding factions to destabilise a region or elected governments. You have seen war being a racket time and time again. Having seen all of that in detail, here you are defaulting to a position that what is being propagated by the MSM and governments is virtuous, truthful, and just. The reason you think that way is compassion is attached to the cause, with skews your logical critical thinking, and supplants it with emotional thinking.

There are a bunch of us that recognise that an eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind. McCarthyism isn’t a good thing. We need a detente, rapprochement, and peace. Having watched this thing unfold, its tremendous tragedy seeing these lives lost and a country being turned into rubble. 

 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Chris Barnard
Typos

[Steven Kossor]

I think the perspective that Chris Bernard is advocating (nuanced, sticking to logical critical thinking and eschewing emotional thinking) is the one most likely to illuminate the events of the day.  Unfortunately, it is a perspective that is anathema to the mainstream that clamors for a simple two-dimensional explanation that they think holds the potential for predicting the future.  At least that perspective energizes the base motivations of people and turns out the crowds; rallies are not attended by people who can see how they're being manipulated by others.  I am so thankful to have access to the incredible depth of thinking that exists on the Education Forum and hope to enjoy that resource for many years to come.  If you haven't sent the Forum a donation to support its work, please consider that.  Best wishes always!

[Matthew Koch]

1 minute ago, Lori Spencer said:

There seem to be a lot of CIA defenders in our ranks — a rather surprising revelation in a community of Kennedy Assassination researchers! 
 

so, let me get this straight: 

CIA assassinating world leaders (including JFK, mangy of us believe) and doing regime changes around the world: BAD.

 

CIA arming and funding actual Yahtzee collaborators and terrorists in Ukraine for 75 years: GOOD. 
 

20th Century Cold War: BAD.

21st Century Cold War: GOOD? 

 

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

Chris needs more than a geography lesson.  He needs a lesson in the history of Russia during the past century.  Based on his comments, I don't believe that Chris has really studied or understood Solzhenitsyn's work, including the Gulag Archipelago and the Red Wheel trilogy.

One of Solzhenitsyn's observations was that Stalin normalized sociopathy and criminality while criminalizing dissent.  Putin is a product of that sociopathic political culture.  His father was an NKVD Destruction Brigade member.

Our local Putin apologists seem naive and poorly informed about;

1) the horrific, genocidal history of Stalinism before, during, and after WWII, and

2) the 21st century transformation of the former Soviet Union into Putin's neo-Stalinist police state.

I was told (by a Russian bishop) that our late Russian Orthodox Archbishop Anthony of San Francisco, and other Russian Orthodox Christians, actually hoped during WWII that the N-a-z-i Wehrmacht would liberate Russia from the bloody Stalinist yoke!

Strange but true.  And most Ukrainians did not want to be re-subjected to the horrors of Stalinism after 1942.  Neither did the Estonians, Latvians, and Lithuanians.

Does that make them Yahtzees?

Who could blame them?

In addition to the Gulag Archipelago, I would highly recommend I.M. Andreyev's carefully documented history of the Bolshevik persecution of the Russian Orthodox Church after 1917-- Russia's Catacomb Saints.

(BTW, where are the Hollywood movies about the 20th century Soviet genocide of its own citizens?)

As for the 21st century history of Putin's KGB-backed fascist police state, I'll reference, again, Catherine Belton's book, Putin's People.

Putin is no enlightened autocrat.  He's a neo-Stalinist graduate of the Yuri Andropov Institute.

William, I have a 2nd cousin who worked for AID International and worked in the Kremlin under Yeltsin.

Putin exists like he does because the Commodities market was used to tank the Russian Economy and a Coup was performed against Gorbachov when he was in Crimea. After the Soviet Union fell, Boris Yeltsin worked with AID International to destroy the Russian economy and sell most of it off to the Oligarchs. Very similar to what is detailed in 'Confessions of an Economic Hit Man' by John Perkins When Yeltsin left office his approval rate was like less than 10%.  Putin comes up in this vacuum and comes to power and stays in power as a reaction to the damage done to Russia, by the West. So interestingly you leave that aspect of Russia and Putin out.

It is this lack of control why globalists have used the Coup in Ukraine to create this proxy crisis where if Russia doesn't act they will be targeted with missiles that they won't be able to respond to. (Something America had a similar problem with) Or be branded the bad guy when you remove the problem. Zelensky could have negotiated instead  he's held out believing that the West will someday supply troops. So I fail to see how it is Russia fault when Zelensky or Biden could have negotiated.. Don't join NATO don't militarize and stop attacking ethnic Russians in Donbas region. But apparently that was too much. 

I believe that this coup in Ukraine by Obama State department was done as a reaction to Russia preventing CIA's Jihadi Al Queda Rebels from overthrowing Assad. Which was the other parts of the Clean Break Strategy our country got suckered into by Zionist Neo Cons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Clean_Break:_A_New_Strategy_for_Securing_the_Realm So, Putin's army along with Iran's Solemoni countered the; CIA, Saudi Arabia, and misc Gulf Arab states backed Isis"rebels" in Toyotas. Who America were supposed to be in a War on Terror with since 911, but since it wasn't a Republican in power Neo Liberals went along Neo Conservatives. Just like they are going along with Azov (N)azis because: "Trump and his MAGAt supporters are the real Fascists and Putin can't be ANTIFA because he collusion rigged the election with Cheeto Benito!" (Sarcasm added)

[Guest]

17 hours ago, John Cotter said:

The usual ad hominem insults from soi disant compassionate liberals.

It’s tragic seeing things go full circle. People become what they hate.
 

“By intensity of hatred, nations create in themselves the character that they imagine in their enemies. Hence it comes that all passionate conflicts result in an interchange of characteristics.’

George William Russell 

[John Cotter]

3 hours ago, Lori Spencer said:

There seem to be a lot of CIA defenders in our ranks — a rather surprising revelation in a community of Kennedy Assassination researchers! 
 

so, let me get this straight: 

CIA assassinating world leaders (including JFK, many of us believe) and doing regime changes around the world: BAD.

 

CIA arming and funding actual Yahtzee collaborators and terrorists in Ukraine for 75 years: GOOD. 
 

20th Century Cold War: BAD.

21st Century Cold War: GOOD? 
 

I suppose Arthur Schlesinger Jr. said it best when he opined that, “historians, like everyone else, are prisoners of their own experience.” 

Well said, Lori.

[W. Niederhut]

11 hours ago, Steven Kossor said:

I think the perspective that Chris Bernard is advocating (nuanced, sticking to logical critical thinking and eschewing emotional thinking) is the one most likely to illuminate the events of the day.  Unfortunately, it is a perspective that is anathema to the mainstream that clamors for a simple two-dimensional explanation that they think holds the potential for predicting the future.  At least that perspective energizes the base motivations of people and turns out the crowds; rallies are not attended by people who can see how they're being manipulated by others.  I am so thankful to have access to the incredible depth of thinking that exists on the Education Forum and hope to enjoy that resource for many years to come.  If you haven't sent the Forum a donation to support its work, please consider that.  Best wishes always!

What bunk.  The simplistic, two-dimensional thinking about Russian history on this thread is coming from those who mistakenly believe that, because Hitler's reign of terror was evil-- and the CIA's post-WWII track record is evil-- Stalin's reign of terror (and Putin's neo-Stalinist reign of terror) wasn't/isn't.

History is far more complex.  Anyone has studied the horrors of Stalinism (and Putin-ism) in any depth will understand precisely what I'm talking about-- but much of that history has been relatively unknown in the West.  Many Westerners have a concept of Soviet history based largely on 20th century Bolshevik propaganda.

I have tried to direct Chris to some references on true Soviet and neo-Soviet history, without success.

As for Chris, his modus operandi here is to falsely accuse those who rebut his erroneous posts of being "emotional."

[Paul Brancato]

27 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

What bunk.  The simplistic, two-dimensional thinking about Russian history on this thread is coming from those who mistakenly believe that, because Hitler's reign of terror was evil-- and the CIA's post-WWII track record is evil-- Stalin's reign of terror (and Putin's neo-Stalinist reign of terror) wasn't/isn't.

History is far more complex.  Anyone has studied the horrors of Stalinism (and Putin-ism) in any depth will understand precisely what I'm talking about-- but much of that history has been relatively unknown in the West.  Many Westerners have a concept of Soviet history based largely on 20th century Bolshevik propaganda.

I have tried to direct Chris to some references on true Soviet and neo-Soviet history, without success.

As for Chris, his modus operandi here is to falsely accuse those who rebut his erroneous posts of being "emotional."

True about Stalin and Putin, but the question is how do we get to live in a more peaceful world? War isn’t the answer. War is a racket. I think jfk saw that. He got the same kind of criticism for his willingness to engage with Castro and Krushchev. I have never received a response to the question I’ve posed several times - couldn’t this war have been averted? Do Putin’s evil ways explain everything? Certainly not. If the west wanted to save Ukraine they missed the moment. Now it’s too late.  

[Matt Allison]

2 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

War isn’t the answer. War is a racket.

I haven't seen anyone say otherwise.

2 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

If the west wanted to save Ukraine they missed the moment.

Prior to Putin's invasion, how exactly would that have worked?

btw, the West is currently in the process of saving Ukraine and its democracy.

4 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

Do Putin’s evil ways explain everything?

Yes, quite easily, and it isn't particularly complicated either.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

I have tried to direct Chris to some references on true Soviet and neo-Soviet history, without success.

As for Chris, his modus operandi here is to falsely accuse those who rebut his erroneous posts of being "emotional."

Hi William, I repeat that I have read The Gulag Archipelago, I am very familiar of the horrors of the 50-100m dead during the twentieth century at the hands of communism. You disparage me by saying I must not understand it, which does me a disservice. 
This attempted rebuttal from you is a straw man argument. It doesn’t have any bearing on my position in this debate. If anything Mearsheimer is basing his position on there being more complexity both historically and presently. I don’t know whether this is a misunderstanding on your part or an attempt to misunderstand and misrepresent my position. Either way it doesn’t matter in the debate, its irrelivant.
 

As for the second paragraph. Are you denying that human beings behave differently when subjected to fear, or a threat? Are you rejecting the idea that people have a rational thinking part of the brain (neo-cortex) and an older part of the brain which is the emotional part (amygdala), which houses the fight, flight, freeze, feed, fornicate, instincts? You have repeatedly cited your credentials in this field, so I must assume that you understand that. Steven Kossor also has a considerable understanding in this field too. Let me ask you, not for the first time, do you think that your fortress of a mind is impervious to biases, or reacting less logically when faced with a threat, that causes emotions within you? 
 

There is no trickery here, it’s a very straightforward response from me. 

[W. Niederhut]

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

Hi William, I repeat that I have read The Gulag Archipelago, I am very familiar of the horrors of the 50-100m dead during the twentieth century at the hands of communism. You disparage me by saying I must not understand it, which does me a disservice. 
This attempted rebuttal from you is a straw man argument. It doesn’t have any bearing on my position in this debate. If anything Mearsheimer is basing his position on there being more complexity both historically and presently. I don’t know whether this is a misunderstanding on your part or an attempt to misunderstand and misrepresent my position. Either way it doesn’t matter in the debate, its irrelivant.
 

As for the second paragraph. Are you denying that human beings behave differently when subjected to fear, or a threat? Are you rejecting the idea that people have a rational thinking part of the brain (neo-cortex) and an older part of the brain which is the emotional part (amygdala), which houses the fight, flight, freeze, feed, fornicate, instincts? You have repeatedly cited your credentials in this field, so I must assume that you understand that. Steven Kossor also has a considerable understanding in this field too. Let me ask you, not for the first time, do you think that your fortress of a mind is impervious to biases, or reacting less logically when faced with a threat, that causes emotions within you? 
 

There is no trickery here, it’s a very straightforward response from me. 

Chris,

     I was psychoanalyzed 40 years ago so, yes, I'm fully aware of the multi-faceted dimensions of my own mind.  And I learned early in my psychiatric training to be mindful of my emotional reactions to my patients, (and associates) and to use counter-transference as data about others.

     As for the Gulag Archipelago, one of Solzhenitsyn's most compelling observations, IMO, was that Stalin had, essentially, normalized sociopathy in the U.S.S.R., while criminalizing conscientious dissent.  As you will recall, decorated artillery Captain Solzhenitsyn, himself, was arrested at the German front and sent to the Gulag for eight years for posting a joke about Stalin in a private letter!  Meanwhile, thieves, murders, and various psychopaths were regarded as victims of class warfare, and often ascended to positions of authority in Stalin's police terror state.

     (Speaking of class warfare, the Russian kulaks were murdered on a grand scale in Stalin's Soviet Union, for the crime of being slightly more prosperous than their fellow peasants-- perhaps owning an extra cow or two, etc.  Russian Orthodox priests were also systematically murdered and/or shipped to the Gulag, as were Baptists.  Monasteries like Solovki were turned into forced labor concentration camps.)

      Soviet POWs in WWII were shipped directly to the Gulag from N-a-z-i prison camps, as were Estonians, Latvians, and any who had been in contact with the non-Soviet world.  Ex-filtration of populations is an old Soviet practice.

    And Vladimir Spiridonovich Putin was one of the NKVD Destruction brigade officers implementing Stalin's reign of terror on the front.     So, it should come as no surprise that his son, Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin, is currently bombing apartment buildings in Ukraine, executing Russian conscripts in Ukraine who disobey orders, and shipping Ukrainian civilians to Russian prisons.

   

Edited January 23, 2023 by W. Niederhut

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Chris,

     I was psychoanalyzed 40 years ago so, yes, I'm fully aware of the multi-faceted dimensions of my own mind.  And I learned early in my psychiatric training to be mindful of my emotional reactions to my patients, (and associates) and to use counter-transference as data about others.

William,

Thanks for your response. Let me ask this question again; is it possible that emotions can and are affecting your own judgment when it comes to Putin, Russia or any other topic here? Could you be succeptible to a fear-psychosis? As you know, they are real phenomenon’s that Jung, Meerloo, Nietzsche and Dostoevsky. 

42 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

As for the Gulag Archipelago, one of Solzhenitsyn's most compelling observations, IMO, was that Stalin had, essentially, normalized sociopathy in the U.S.S.R., while criminalizing conscientious dissent.  As you will recall, decorated artillery Captain Solzhenitsyn, himself, was arrested at the German front and sent to the Gulag for eight years for posting a joke about Stalin in a private letter!  Meanwhile, thieves, murders, and various psychopaths were regarded as victims of class warfare, and often ascended to positions of authority in Stalin's Police terror state.

I don’t think we are going to disagree on the horrors of communism or totalitarian states in general. I have a stack of the finest materials on totalitarianism on my desk, it’s of great interest. 
 

42 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

(Speaking of class warfare, the Russian kulaks were murdered on a grand scale in Stalin's Soviet Union, for the crime of being slightly more prosperous than their fellow peasants-- perhaps owning an extra cow or two, etc.  Russian Orthodox priests were also systematically murdered and/or shipped to the Gulag, as were Baptists.  Monasteries like Solovki were turned into forced labor concentration camps.)

Jordan Peterson has lectured on this particular point many times, it’s what inspired me to listen to the audiobook. Likewise with Christopher R. Browning’s “Ordinary Men” about National Socialist Germany and its horrors. 
 

42 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Soviet POWs in WWII were shipped directly to the Gulag from N-a-z-i prison camps, as were Estonians, Latvians, and any who had been in contact with the non-Soviet world.  Ex-filtration of populations is an old Soviet practice.

    And Vladimir Spiridonovich Putin was one of the NKVD Destruction brigade officers implementing Stalin's reign of terror on the front.     So, it should come as no surprise that his son, Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin, is currently bombing apartment buildings in Ukraine, executing Russian conscripts in Ukraine who disobey orders, and shipping Ukrainian civilians to Russian prisons.

On one hand I am glad you are relaying these horrors for everyone else to read, as what we need in society us more education on this horrific period of the twentieth century, as it serves to keep our minds, eyes and ears open today.

Do you see that nobody here is playing down the horrors in any of the totalitarian systems of this period? That is not what people are arguing. 
 

Nobody here is stating Putin is a good guy with honourable intentions. I have been quite clear that all of the super powers do malevolent things. They are all vying for territory and wishing to keep as tighter grip on power as possible. IMO there are no innocents in the power structures of the three super powers. The victims are the ordinary people, as always it is them that have suffered and continue to.

Nobody is saying the west and Russia are equivalent. Nobody is saying that they are equally virtuous, or even that they are virtuous at all. 
 

What is being made clear is that many of the people chipping in here believe that this conflict could have been avoided and that the west shares some blame, due to it’s NATO expansion past the Elbe River. And due to it’s stance on diplomacy. Even when this Russian invasion began, there was an opportunity to save many lives and stop a country being turned into rubble. Instead another course was taken and the only people willing are those with shares in munitions and oil companies, as usual, as well as perhaps western countries now exploiting Ukrainian labour in terms of displaced peoples who have lost everything. 
 

I’ll say it again. We need (needed) a detente, rapprochement, and a platform for a long standing peace, not a new cold war. 
 

https://youtu.be/6w3037nq23o

Like Sting, we all want this to end. Its clear to me that the course of action and public consent dictates whether we make that thing worse, or better. that starts here on forums, social media, in social situations. 
 

[W. Niederhut]

Chris,

      I, certainly, wish that more could have been done to prevent this terrible tragedy in Ukraine.

      No argument from me on that account.

      As for Putin, it is true that I have harbored a personal grudge against the man since his FSB goons seized the ROCOR in 2007, (including my own local parish.)

      He confiscated the last remnant of the Russian Orthodox Church that had not been corrupted and controlled by the KGB, and told ITASS at the time that, "religion is one of Russia's most important weapons of self defense."

      In other words, like his KGB predecessors, he cynically viewed the Church as a mere tool of the state.