Allen Dulles and his Nazi Pals in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[Matthew Koch]

 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Matthew Koch said:

 

Never gets old. 🙂 

[Matthew Koch]

New video with Scott Ritter discussing Ukrainian corruption. 

 

[W. Niederhut]

Ouch... Jeff Carter takes another one on the chin... 🤥

Jeff has been denying for the past five years that Putin, his oligarchs, and the GRU interfered in our 2016 election to install their compromised Kremlin puppet, Donald Trump, in the White House-- two years after Putin had abruptly seized and annexed the Crimea.

We Putin critics were, obviously, being "childish," and "emotional" at the time -- falsely depicting Jeff's enlightened autocrat, Vlad Putin, as a silly "caricature of a comic book villain."  (Such notions of geopolitical good and evil are irrelevant in the world of Realpolitik, as Henry Kissinger clearly proved.)

Then, one year ago, Jeff-the-Realist assured us that his Realpolitik-al hero, Putin, did not really intend to invade Ukraine (as part of an apparent long-term goal of stamping out untenable Western-style democracy and re-establishing the totalitarian Soviet empire.)

But Putin's invasion of Ukraine shocked everyone in March of 2022-- including Jeff Carter, Glenn Greenwald, and Matt Taibbi-- and his apologists had to undertake the awkward task of convincing us that Putin's adversaries were Yahtzees-- unlike Orban, Le Pen, Trump, and other right wing, Kremlin-backed politicians in Europe and the U.S.-- and that his invasion of Ukraine was really the U.S. and NATO's fault.

 

[Bob Ness]

17 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

American backed coup in Ukraine

That's a neat way of setting the boundary of an argument. Who said the Maidan revolt was a "coup?" You? Maybe it was a rejection of the Russian backed interference in the affairs of a sovereign country? After all it's their country and if they want to remove a Putin puppet and replace him why shouldn't they?

 What has clearly failed here is you and Carter's defense of Putin's invasion of their neighbor under false pretenses and pretexts which was clearly pointed out to you at the time. The horrific violence IS NOT UKRAINE'S FAULT and you and Carter's defense of Putin's actions are deplorable.

RUSSIA CAN JUST STOP SHOOTING AND LEAVE, RIGHT? VIOLENCE OVER!! The only action they have to take is do NOTHING!

Why does that escape you? Do you favor the violence? Do you think they should just surrender? I doubt it but that's what the message is. Appalling.

Edited January 24, 2023 by Bob Ness

[Jeff Carter]

Obviously a nuanced informed dialogue is not to be countenanced here on this Forum, at least on certain topics. Important contextual information derived from primary documentation is rather dismissed in favour of a “madman dictator” theory which is itself a signature Neoconservative concept.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Jeff Carter said:

Obviously a nuanced informed dialogue is not to be countenanced here on this Forum, at least on certain topics. Important contextual information derived from primary documentation is rather dismissed in favour of a “madman dictator” theory which is itself a signature Neoconservative concept.

Exactly right, Jeff, and it’s sad really. We are all funnelled into the archetypal pantomime hero vs villain script, framed in the true style of the black and white fallacy (false dilemma). Hollywood and the MSM do a great job of brain training the masses in this limited scope of thinking. It walks nations into conflict time and time again, justifies the passing  of tax payers monies into the hands of private corporations and renders the masses so easily manipulable. As always, its a lot easier to fool someone that it is to convince them that they have been fooled. 

[W. Niederhut]

1 hour ago, Jeff Carter said:

Obviously a nuanced informed dialogue is not to be countenanced here on this Forum, at least on certain topics. Important contextual information derived from primary documentation is rather dismissed in favour of a “madman dictator” theory which is itself a signature Neoconservative concept.

"Nuanced," and "informed" dialogue, Jeff?

"Contextual information?" 

Sounds pretty high-falutin'-- like most of your misleading pettifoggery.

Didn't you tell us last year that Putin was not going to invade Ukraine, before later arguing that his decision was NATO's fault?

Have you not consistently downplayed the efforts of Putin and his FSB-aligned oligarchs to interfere in our 2016 U.S. election on behalf of Trump?

What do you make of Oleg Deripaska's 2016 relationship with FBI agent Charles McGonigal?

Do you understand the context of that information?

Can you engage in an informed dialogue about the nuances? 🤥

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by W. Niederhut

[James DiEugenio]

Did you know that Putin and Zelensky were negotiating in Istanbul last spring?

If you did, why did you not mention it when I said that Zelensky started out as a decent guy but then was made a pawn of the Neocons who did not want any truce?

DId you then know that Johnson flew in and nixed that deal?

If you did, then you ignored that also.  Why? Because it proved my point?

So when you throw around that slur "intellectually dishonest" it means very little when you ignore facts like the above.

And BTW, I was wrong.  The Russians now have 550,000 troops in the Donbass not 300,000.

This is why I was trying to propose a truce last year.  Why anyone would oppose such a thing, except maybe a Neocon like Johnson, truly escapes me.

[John Cotter]

14 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

I spent last June in East Europe, I rented a car and went through Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia Herzegovina, and Montenegro. Everyone was friendly. I would engage people in conversation about the War in Ukraine and people were opinionated and quite willing to talk about it. The overwhelming response expressed was solidarity with Ukraine, a complete distrust of Putin, and an expression of relief that at least it wasn't there country being invaded by Putin.   In a couple of small Balkan mountain towns, the word would quickly get around that an American was in town. And everyone was very friendly to me. But I had that same experience with people throughout the Western  Mediterranean earlier on my trip. Interestingly,I just happen to be in Cannes on the opening day of the festival!

 

After the fall of the Soviet Union, there were 10 previous Soviet satellites that joined Nato from 1999-2004. Probably to the West's surprise and delight, there was not the slightest mention of disapproval by Putin until 2007! Since then, in the last 19 years, there have been only 3 new previous Soviet satellites countries admitted to Nato.

Where were the protest when the bulk of previous satellites defected? Clinton and Bush said they  never heard a word of protest from Putin until 2007.

Obviously a great opportunity for World peace was missed. This could have been handled much better. It's obvious on the ground where the hearts of the people of the region I visited lies, with all their divisions. But I can also understand people not wanting to continue indefinitely  to write checks to just further the war as well.

Presumably we can take it, Kirk, that you didn't visit Russia or Ukraine on your travels and that you didn't ask Russians or Ukrainians - and particularly Russian speaking or pro-Russian Ukrainians - what their thinking was on such matters as NATO's east European expansion since 1997.

Edited January 24, 2023 by John Cotter

[Matt Allison]

6 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

DId you then know that Johnson flew in and nixed that deal?

If you did, then you ignored that also.  Why? Because it proved my point?

I wasn't calling you intellectually dishonest, Jim. I was referring to to the obvious Putin apologists.

With regard to your statement about Putin and Zelensky negotiating, I believe someone else pointed out the unlikelihood that Putin was negotiating in good faith.

And as was also pointed out, "Surrender your land or we'll kill all your citizens" isn't much of a deal.

[Kirk Gallaway]

W.We Putin critics were, obviously, being "childish," and "emotional" at the time -- falsely depicting Jeff's enlightened autocrat, Vlad Putin,Then, one year ago, Jeff-the-Realist assured us that his Realpolitik-al hero, Putin, did not really intend to invade Ukraine

 

Yes W. We already had our inside track to Putin's plan with Oliver Stone's denials.

But not to be outdone Jeff, with his inside track absolutely assured us Putin would not invade as well!

The major point I got from Jeff is that we should now pass off all Ukraine resistance to Russia's brutal, bullying invasion with the phrase "neocon scheme."

 

I agree W. I thought Jeff's last post was straining. But nothing compared to Chris commenting on Jeff's post with Chris Prose!

 

funnelled into the archetypal pantomime hero vs villain script!

framed in the true style of the black and white fallacy!

Hollywood and the MSM brain training the masses in this limited scope of thinking!.

renders the masses so easily manipulable!

 

Now we have our sort of George Santos literary wannabe  Chris rallying us with another one of his repeated indignations of the masses!

Is there any lengths you won't got to Chris to disguise the fact that you have absolutely no real facts to share, just repetitve  proclamations.

This is what I mean  by pure jive. Stop BSing us, Chris..

 

John:Presumably we can take it, Kirk, that you didn't visit Russia or Ukraine on your travels and

you didn't ask Russians or Ukrainians -

Uh, presumably, no John because I never stated i did. If you were on the top thread. A couple of weeks ago, I posted what I thought was a very well written, insightful  piece by an Estonian who lived in Russian enclave in Estonia and his commentary as to the progression of response among his neighbors and family to the War in Ukraine. It was the only such piece highlighting what i generally believe your asking about  that I've seen here.

It's a good topic. Perhaps you can research and come up with some similar citizen accounts for us..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Kirk Gallaway

[Matt Allison]

21 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

This is why I was trying to propose a truce last year.  Why anyone would oppose such a thing, except maybe a Neocon like Johnson, truly escapes me.

Putin has now managed to get over 122,000 Russian soldiers killed. That's twice the total number of dead Americans in the entirety of the Vietnam War.

 

 

Gen. Mark A. Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, for example, said in November that Moscow’s casualties were “well over 100,000 Russian soldiers killed and wounded.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/18/world/europe/russia-death-toll-war.html

 

 

[Kirk Gallaway]

25 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Did you know that Putin and Zelensky were negotiating in Istanbul last spring?

If you did, why did you not mention it when I said that Zelensky started out as a decent guy but then was made a pawn of the Neocons who did not want any truce?

DId you then know that Johnson flew in and nixed that deal?

If you did, then you ignored that also.  Why? Because it proved my point?

So when you throw around that slur "intellectually dishonest" it means very little when you ignore facts like the above.

And BTW, I was wrong.  The Russians now have 550,000 troops in the Donbass not 300,000.

This is why I was trying to propose a truce last year.  Why anyone would oppose such a thing, except maybe a Neocon like Johnson, truly escapes me.

Jim, can you give us a source on that? Is it this?

Russia and Ukraine may have agreed on a tentative deal

“Russian and Ukrainian negotiators appeared to have tentatively agreed on the outlines of a negotiated interim settlement,” wrote Fiona Hill and Angela Stent.

This is from Fiona Hill, who is pro Ukraine resistance.

https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2022/09/02/diplomacy-watch-why-did-the-west-stop-a-peace-deal-in-ukraine/

 

 

[Matt Allison]

Since Putin had no right to invade Crimea, I'm not sure I could consider that much of a deal...

Obama got played on that invasion.