Allen Dulles and his Nazi Pals in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[Guest]

For anyone who has the appetite for an intellectual opinion on the Ukraine conflict, Col. Douglas MacGregor highlights some glaring points that are difficult to ignore. 18min video. 
 

There is also an interesting analysis of the Taiwan / China geopolitical situation. 
 

We need a detente, a rapprochement, a lasting peace. 🦜 
 

 

[Guest]

Respected, long time journalist, Peter Hitchens, explains his thoughts on the west's failed interventionism and how they are not only more complex than they are presented, with long histories but, that they are conducted for reasons other than humanitarian reasons, or to save lives, or to liberate. He also points out that if people should have outrage against conflicts abroad, then they should consistently apply it. Our foreign policy has no consistency, in which case it is a pretext. Hitchens claims that the goading of Putin since at least 2008 and NATO expansionism is responsible for this terrible conflict that we have today. We are often buying stories from politicians who have other things in mind. 

Cui bono?
 

13 mins long.




- VIDEO TRANSCRIPT -

0:01

foreign

0:02

[Music]

0:15

to our final speaker of the evening

0:17

Peter Hitchens Peter Hitchens is a

0:19

journalist and author current Economist

0:21

of the mail on Sunday he's been a

0:23

resident correspondent in Moscow and

0:24

Washington and has visited 57 countries

0:26

on assignment from North Korea to the

0:28

DRC his latest book a revolution

0:30

betrayed is about the destruction of

0:32

State grammar schools and the resulting

0:33

effects in the education system Peter

0:35

the floor is yours

0:44

thank you so much Mr President do I call

0:47

you Mr President yet or is it yeah

0:50

I get these things right I'm trying to

0:52

remember that point of information I was

0:53

going to come up with but it's so good

0:55

I speak uh this evening as a reformed

0:58

imperialist

1:00

I was born an imperialist I was born in

1:02

the Empire I was actually born in the

1:04

reign of his marriage to King George VI

1:06

King Emperor my father had been for many

1:09

years before that a serving officer in

1:11

the Royal Navy enforcing British hard

1:14

power from Shanghai to Buenos Aires on

1:17

one occasion he'd been called back from

1:18

halfway across the Atlantic to go and

1:20

put down riots in Haifa in what was then

1:22

the British Mandate of Palestine so I

1:25

also grew up with something of knowledge

1:26

of the extended nature of the British

1:28

Empire and of what it did and of how the

1:32

current world came into being and this

1:34

seems to me it's a lie beneath any

1:36

discussion of this kind the task of all

1:38

intelligent people

1:40

discussing any of these any of these

1:43

matters is surely to penetrate the

1:45

disguises in which history advances

1:47

itself things are simply not always what

1:50

they seem or what they are portrayed to

1:52

be and I find as a journalist who has to

1:55

watch many of these events first hand

1:57

and who has seen so many of them that

1:59

it's very distressing to see the way in

2:01

which the modern world is so easily gold

2:03

and bemused into believing fantasies

2:05

about what is going on around us I'll

2:08

come I hope at some point to the issue

2:10

of Ukraine where one of these fantasies

2:11

is very much in play but here we have a

2:14

very major problem all of the crisis in

2:16

which we intervene have long deep roots

2:19

some of them are even longer than they

2:21

that I prepared I'm prepared to go back

2:24

into but take for instance Afghanistan

2:25

are two members of my close family were

2:29

actually involved in the fighting in

2:31

Afghanistan and I therefore feel I have

2:33

a rather strong stake in it but what we

2:36

have to realize here is that the crisis

2:38

in Afghanistan which we supposedly went

2:40

in to sort out was largely the result of

2:43

the efforts of speaking of Brzezinski

2:45

President Carter's President Carter's

2:47

National Security advisor in creating

2:50

the mujahideen forces in Afghanistan to

2:52

drive the Russians out the very same

2:55

forces which we then found ourselves

2:57

confronting as arbitrous enemy there's

3:00

an excellent film both very funny and

3:03

very intelligent called Charlie Wilson's

3:04

War in which this absurd process is

3:07

actually described in some detail and

3:09

it's very educational for anybody who

3:11

can really really wishes to stand up and

3:13

say that the the West intervene in

3:15

Afghanistan for moral reasons uh policy

3:18

in Afghanistan is catastrophic has been

3:20

for many years because it is one of

3:21

those places where during the Cold War

3:23

in particular the superpowers competed

3:26

for influence where my relatives were

3:29

fighting in hell man there were American

3:30

canals built in the year 1949 as one

3:34

part of intervention uh not until not

3:37

very long ago in Kabul and now a a place

3:40

of of veils and burkas and Grim Taliban

3:44

sanchia uh women wore the same sort of

3:46

clothes that they wore in the west and

3:48

lived lives very similar to those in the

3:50

west before these interventions got

3:51

going I have personal experience of of a

3:54

couple of interventions one I was

3:56

present in Mogadishu in the night when

3:59

the U.S Marines arrived and George Bush

4:02

seniors attempt to sort out that

4:04

disastrous country one of many what I

4:06

learned there was again this had at one

4:09

time an extremely prosperous and settled

4:11

country it now has a huge diaspora of

4:13

Highly intelligence and educated people

4:15

who can't live there anymore because of

4:17

the disastrous interventions by East and

4:19

West to try and take control of it and

4:21

has sunk from the level of this say a

4:24

highly civilized City in Mogadishu

4:26

that's who are very very dangerous slum

4:28

I saw that it was also in Baghdad in the

4:32

months after the Blair Bush intervention

4:34

and again what you saw in Baghdad was

4:37

catastrophe the higher catastrophe

4:39

imposed on on a country already in

4:41

severe difficulties thanks to idiotic

4:44

and sanctions the

4:46

resulting in in greater and greater

4:49

chaos the ridiculous yes indeed

4:55

I can so far

5:02

in contact with reality do you not find

5:05

that the term Western intervention

5:07

discussed in this debate is so

5:09

inherently unstable so normalizing and

5:12

so contested that ultimately will be

5:14

unable to come to any need for

5:16

institution whatsoever well no on the

5:18

contrary actually I think that if we

5:19

just if we discuss it properly we will

5:21

be able to come to the meaningful

5:23

conclusion of voting the motion down and

5:26

the first Western intervention I can

5:27

think of in the the 20th century is the

5:30

intervention by the Imperial Germany in

5:32

Russia in which they financed with tons

5:34

of gold and enormous amounts of other

5:37

help the coup de Char by Vladimir Lenin

5:40

which destroyed the only democracy

5:42

Russia has ever had and reduced that

5:43

country for 70 years to tyranny poverty

5:47

misery and secret police that was the

5:49

first Western intervention I can think

5:51

of another one which comes to mind very

5:53

much is the is the Western intervention

5:54

conducted by the this country in the

5:56

United States in Iran in 1953 and the

5:59

overthrow of the legitimate leader of

6:01

Iran Muhammad mossedek a an action which

6:04

still has bitter and dangerous

6:06

consequences for the whole world our

6:07

intervention in Iraq of course follows

6:09

the the British takeover of Iraq as a as

6:12

a post-world war one mandate in the

6:14

1920s and the Miss government of it our

6:17

Miss kelvin's of it during that time

6:18

these things go back and back and back

6:20

that is what intervention is and we

6:22

occasionally hear and we're bound to

6:24

hear this evening about Rwanda that

6:26

horrible Massacre which everybody says

6:28

we should have intervened to stop well

6:29

if we are so concerned in the Western

6:31

World about such Horrors why didn't we

6:34

intervene to stop it is it perhaps

6:36

because the purpose of intervention by

6:38

the West is not to stop massacres the

6:40

purpose of intervention in the west has

6:42

some other reason some other purpose

6:43

some other aim which has nothing to do

6:46

with with humanitarian intervention take

6:49

another example which I think has to be

6:51

examined here I will try to there are so

6:52

many of these I'll try to be brief there

6:54

was some time ago an event April the

6:56

Arab Spring in which it was believed by

6:58

many people in the west we were about to

7:00

see a birth of democracy and freedom in

7:03

the Arab countries well here's the thing

7:05

when democracy and freedom arrived in

7:07

Egypt as I as I witnessed the the main

7:10

beneficiary body was the Muslim

7:13

Brotherhood a group of people who were

7:15

not approved of at all in the west they

7:16

did not desire to see Egypt ruled by the

7:18

Muslim Brotherhood so good Heavens what

7:21

happened uh the the Egyptian Army

7:23

intervened and removed the Muslim

7:25

Brotherhood very undemocratically and

7:27

brutally from office and massacred

7:29

people in the streets of Cairo on an

7:31

absolutely astonishing scale barely

7:32

reported in this country so as to

7:34

frustrate the very democracy we had

7:36

claimed to be in favor of what is this

7:38

rubbish what is this rubbish we simply

7:41

do not have a clue what we are doing if

7:44

what we are doing is what we say we are

7:45

doing if you have a genuine and and and

7:49

heartfelt and decent animus against the

7:53

mistreatment of people in Faraway

7:54

countries of which you know something or

7:56

nothing I don't care if you have that

7:58

then you must consistently apply it if

8:01

you do not consistently apply that

8:03

outrage if you do not active to to to to

8:06

to stand against it and prevent it where

8:08

it happens then it is not a reason for

8:11

your action it is a prefix

8:13

yes indeed

8:21

Logistics money uh support but I ask you

8:24

this would you have said that the US and

8:26

the Western countries should have done

8:27

nothing when Gaddafi's murderous troops

8:29

and tanks rolled on Benghazi ready to

8:31

slaughter an independence movement I

8:33

would I I don't need to argue whether we

8:35

should do nothing you need to argue

8:36

whether we should do something that we

8:38

are not we're not enough

8:43

I'm not in a position personally to do

8:46

something I although I as I have pointed

8:48

out and I stress it because it's

8:50

important close members of my family

8:52

have been In Harm's Way on these

8:54

episodes so I do have a stake in this

8:56

I'm not in a position to say to them go

8:59

and risk your lives go and risk having

9:01

your limbs blown off and your and your

9:03

intestines strewn over the ground for

9:05

some idealists standing in a balcony in

9:08

Cambridge I haven't got that right it

9:11

doesn't exist if you really seriously

9:13

want to send people on these Expeditions

9:15

I suggest strongly that you need a more

9:18

consistent well worked out historically

9:20

informed and frankly decent belief in

9:23

what it is that you want to do now again

9:25

if we actually had managed to achieve

9:27

the the the modern liberal democracy

9:30

which we claim to want in Afghanistan

9:31

and it elected a Taliban government

9:33

which immediately voted to to impose the

9:37

burqa and all kinds of other Islamic

9:39

strictures on that country what would we

9:41

do we'll be saying congrats relations on

9:43

your democracy you get on with doing

9:45

that or would you say no actually you

9:47

can't do that intervene again is this

9:49

consistent because it's not it has no

9:51

consistency that is why I say it's the

9:53

pretext now an awful lot I have to

9:55

finish with this because it's a point

9:57

which I I almost alone make in this

9:59

country and it's it's so vital people at

10:01

least hear it made in a country which is

10:03

almost entirely ceased to debate

10:05

anything adversarially in the past few

10:07

months in Ukraine we are told that what

10:10

we see is a brutal Russian invasion of

10:13

Ukraine and indeed we do see a brutal

10:15

Russian invasion of Ukraine no question

10:18

of that one which is indescribably

10:20

filthy and and uh and which nobody can

10:24

defend but did that Invasion simply come

10:26

out of nowhere

10:28

well no it didn't the whole point about

10:31

that that that invasion was that it was

10:33

the result of many many years going back

10:36

at least to 2008 of systematic goading

10:39

of Russia by the Western Powers the

10:41

expansion the expansion of NATO a policy

10:45

this is amazing thing a policy

10:47

simultaneously decried by Henry

10:50

Kissinger and Noam Chomsky the only

10:52

thing as far as I know which has ever

10:54

United those two gentlemen in history is

10:56

that they both think that NATO expansion

10:59

into Eastern Europe was stupid even

11:01

Robert Kagan are probably the most

11:04

aggressive Hawk on the Russian issue in

11:06

Washington has written in foreign

11:07

affairs that the Russian invasion was

11:10

provoked why was it provoked well it's

11:12

an interesting question and we haven't

11:13

got time to discuss it it's another

11:15

debate but the point is the roots of

11:17

what happened in February this year lie

11:19

much further back in other things and

11:22

where we convince ourselves that what we

11:24

are doing is making humanitarian

11:27

invasions we are often buying store

11:29

sold to us by politicians who have other

11:31

things in mind and that I say is why we

11:35

tend not to intervene in so many places

11:37

where if our policy truly were

11:39

humanitarian intervention we would

11:41

intervene and why we also intervene in

11:43

several places where it obviously isn't

11:45

humanitarian I offer you this because it

11:47

seems to me to be vital that we

11:48

understand that in many cases what we

11:50

are being asked to do is to approve of

11:52

ourselves

11:54

we're not actually being asked to do

11:56

good we're being asked to feel good

11:59

about ourselves because we can say oh

12:01

look we intervened look it isn't as easy

12:04

to get an army or a state into a country

12:08

as it is to get a television crew into

12:09

one in fact it's three million times

12:12

more difficult and when you get there

12:14

you have to stay and for how long are

12:17

you prepared to stay and whose brothers

12:19

sisters sons and husbands and fathers

12:23

are you prepared to send there for how

12:25

long to die and how many numbers so that

12:28

it can be done if you genuinely believe

12:31

all that stuff then that's fine by me if

12:34

you're gulled by Propaganda then I'm

12:36

sorry for you and I really do think that

12:38

if you come to an institution like

12:39

Cambridge University you ought to know

12:41

better but whatever the truth is an

12:44

enormous amount of supposed humanitarian

12:46

benevolent intervention in the world

12:48

today is dressed up as that when it is

12:52

in fact something else and that is why I

12:54

very much showed you I have finished I

12:56

very much urge you to oppose the motion

12:59

thank you so much

13:01

[Applause]

English (auto-generated)

 

 

 

 

 

Sign Up

Ad

monday.com

[Paul Brancato]

I’ve noticed that the staunchly anti-Putin posters here use offensive language against the posters they see as pro-Putin. 

2 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

I don't propose to be an expert on this conflict but I think there is probably wrongs on both sides, but here in the west the wrongs on the Zelensky side are hidden. So we have this weird good vs evil idea in the west, when it is probably more nuanced than that. 

I think if the wrongs on both sides were exposed in the western media more then politicians here would be more bold in demanding that Zelensky and Putin enter negotiations to bring peace. But the politicians here in the west are afraid to ask for negotiations because the left wing media will jump down their throats and call them "russian shills" etc. 

The overly good press Zelensky is getting is emboldening him to reject negotiations and prolong the war. And in the meantime innocent men, women and children are dying needlessly. 

This strikes me as an astute post. How far will the world go to arm Ukraine so they can fight a war with Russia that could and should have been avoided? No one wants to see Ukrainians and Russians die - I hope that’s true at least. 

[Matthew Koch]

 

Brenton Tarrant the Christ Church shooter who killed 51 people in a Mosque in New Zealand went on a world tour before planning and training for his massacre. One of the places he visited was Ukraine and in his Manifesto he mentioned the Azov Battalion. His manifesto is where the radicalized "White Replacement Theory" was popularized and why we hear ultra leftists mention it. It has been cited in copy cat killings in America like in El Paso and the Buffalo shooting. Buffalo shooter wore the black sun that Azov and many others wear in Ukraine on their kits (which is National Socialist based) and had a Azov flag. The Azov (N)azi thing is real but it's Neo and different than 1930 German National Socialism. 

 

https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/geopolitics/article/3002927/was-christchurch-shooter-part-white-supremacist-network

https://www.rt.com/news/454020-new-zealand-shooting-suspect-travel/

https://www.thestatesman.com/opinion/ukraine-battleground-neo-National Socialists-1503052117.html

https://www.donbass-insider.com/2019/03/16/new-zealand-terrorist-said-in-his-manifesto-that-he-was-in-ukraine/

 

 

https://www.thecitizen.co.tz/tanzania/oped/buffalo-shooter-drew-inspiration-from-ukrainian-neo-National Socialists-3818882

https://nypost.com/2022/05/14/buffalo-shooter-payton-gendron-posted-white-supremacist-manifesto/

[Matt Allison]

I guess this thread is staying up.

Well. today Russia fired 55 missiles at Ukraine, the targets spread across the entire country. Thanks to the defense systems provided by pro-democracy allies, Ukraine was able to shoot down 47 of them. However the ones that got through have killed 11 people so far.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/26/world/russia-ukraine-news

[Chuck Schwartz]

Glory to Ukraine.

[W. Niederhut]

       For people interested in historical context, the conflict between Ukrainian nationalists and ethnic Russians in Ukraine was the subject of Mikhail Bulgakov's 1922 novel, White Guard, set in Kiev in 1918-- over a century ago.

       What I notice about this highly controversial thread is that some people seem to have a one-dimensional, Hollywood-esque concept of Soviet history-- which omits any references to Lenin's Red Terror, (beginning in 1918) the Holodomor, and Stalin's Great Purges of the 1930s.  The only bad guys in Hollywood (and on Russian State television) are "Yahtzees."

       But the Soviet state committed mass genocide against its own citizenry, (and against non-Russians in the Soviet empire) prior to, during, and after WWII.

      Most Americans have an accurate concept of N-a-z-i atrocities and casualties during WWII, without remembering Stalin's Non-Aggression Pact with Hitler, and the back story of Soviet genocide before, during, and after WWII.

      Solzhenitsyn filled in some of the blanks with his Gulag Archipelago, but much of this atheistic Soviet history has remained untold/unknown in the West.  How many Hollywood movies have depicted Lenin's Red Terror, Stalin's Great Purges, the Gulag, or the Holodomor?  The Bolshevik annihilation of the Russian Orthodox Church?

      Milovan Djilas described some of this history in his memoir, Conversations With Stalin.

      I.M. Andreyev also documented Bolshevik atrocities against the Russian Orthodox Church in his text, Russia's Catacomb Saints.

      Wikipedia has a fairly decent article on the subject.  Worth reading.

Soviet war crimes

Soviet war crimes - Wikipedia

      This Soviet history is relevant today in understanding what Putin's neo-Stalinist regime is doing in Ukraine, and the origins of Ukrainian ("Yahtzee") resistance to Soviet and neo-Soviet rule.  

      Most recently, Putin and his international propaganda establishment have played upon Western ignorance of Soviet history by blaming their Russian Federation war crimes in Ukraine on Ukrainian "Yahtzees."

      As for accusations that Putin's critics are "Russophobes," I was a cantor in the Russian Orthodox Church for many years, before Putin and the FSB seized the ROCOR in 2007.

Edited January 26, 2023 by W. Niederhut

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

 

       What I notice about this highly controversial thread is that some people seem to have a one-dimensional, Hollywood-esque concept of Soviet history-- which omits any references to Lenin's Red Terror, (beginning in 1918) the Holodomor, and Stalin's Great Purges of the 1930s.  The only bad guys in Hollywood (and on Russian State television) are "Yahtzees."

This is a useful post but, possibly not in the way intended. We’re dominated in the west by Hollywood and it’s influence.   You’re absolutely right that the significance of the terrors of communism are significantly underplayed. We had some 50-100 million dead at the hands of communism in the twentieth century. In contrast the Third Reich’s atrocities are still very prominent in popular culture today. Western societies seem to compare so much against National Socialists and Hitler. Why? I have a theory.

Also, in holywood, they do love to cast Russians as the villains, obviously during the cold war but, in more recent times too. The British media does it all the time, regardless of what Russia are upto, its been a feature for decades. Regimes need their bogeymen, their Eurasians (Orwell), as it tightens a grip on who they rule over. 

[Kirk Gallaway]

6 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

I don't propose to be an expert on this conflict but I think there is probably wrongs on both sides, but here in the west the wrongs on the Zelensky side are hidden. So we have this weird good vs evil idea in the west, when it is probably more nuanced than that. 

I think if the wrongs on both sides were exposed in the western media more then politicians here would be more bold in demanding that Zelensky and Putin enter negotiations to bring peace. But the politicians here in the west are afraid to ask for negotiations because the left wing media will jump down their throats and call them "russian shills" etc. 

The overly good press Zelensky is getting is emboldening him to reject negotiations and prolong the war. And in the meantime innocent men, women and children are dying needlessly. 

 

6 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

but here in the west the wrongs on the Zelensky side are hidden.

I like your general tone Gerry, but what are Zelensky's wrongs?  That he, (incidentally a Jew) has collaborated with Anti Semite, National Socialist Nationalist Banderites (because at least they're Ukranian) to oppress the Russian population in Ukraine? 

Does anyone reflect on how hard it was (is)to be President of Ukraine?

This isn't necessarily  indicative of anything. But gives you some background.

Zelensky maybe 10 years ago,  making fun of joining the Banderites in a comedy skit. You can see, not all the audience was amused.

 

 

[Pat Speer]

3 hours ago, Chris Barnard said:

This is a useful post but, possibly not in the way intended. We’re dominated in the west by Hollywood and it’s influence.   You’re absolutely right that the significance of the terrors of communism are significantly underplayed. We had some 50-100 million dead at the hands of communism in the twentieth century. In contrast the Third Reich’s atrocities are still very prominent in popular culture today. Western societies seem to compare so much against National Socialists and Hitler. Why? I have a theory.

Also, in holywood, they do love to cast Russians as the villains, obviously during the cold war but, in more recent times too. The British media does it all the time, regardless of what Russia are upto, its been a feature for decades. Regimes need their bogeymen, their Eurasians (Orwell), as it tightens a grip on who they rule over. 

If you lived in Southern California, you would understand why Russians continue to be presented as the bad guys in numerous filmed  productions. After the fall of the wall, thousands of Russians fled to the good ole USA for increased opportunity. Not to come here and work hard and live the American dream, like most other immigrants. But to spread organized crime throughout the southland. It was a mobster invasion. 

I remember going to the Glendale mall with my Ukrainian friend, who'd just moved back from Ukraine, after spending time in Moscow. He would look across the mall, and spot a group of people a hundred yards away, and say "Those are Russian gangsters." We''d then walk past the group and sure enough, they'd be speaking Russian, or English with a thick Russian accent. We must have spotted fifty of them. After awhile, I could spot them too. They wore brown leather jackets, and almost always had a blonde on their arms. It was like going to the Bada Bing. Mobsters were everywhere. 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

If you lived in Southern California, you would understand why Russians continue to be presented as the bad guys in numerous filmed  productions. After the fall of the wall, thousands of Russians fled to the good ole USA for increased opportunity. Not to come here and work hard and live the American dream, like most other immigrants. But to spread organized crime throughout the southland. It was a mobster invasion. 

Doesn’t that sound a little like something that Trump would say about Mexican’s, Pat? I am not offended but, I thought I would highlight it can’t be one rule for the goose and another for the gander.
 

7 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

I remember going to the Glendale mall with my Ukrainian friend, who'd just moved back from Ukraine, after spending time in Moscow. He would look across the mall, and spot a group of people a hundred yards away, and say "Those are Russian gangsters." We''d then walk past the group and sure enough, they'd be speaking Russian, or English with a thick Russian accent. We must have spotted fifty of them. After awhile, I could spot them too. They wore brown leather jackets, and almost always had a blonde on their arms. It was like going to the Bad Bing. Mobsters were everywhere. 

We have a situation in London with organised crime gangs from various eastern block countries. We have to be careful of putting the anecdotal on a pedestal. I notice you and Kirk have recent commented on Ukrainians or people from a close by region that you communicate with. It doesn’t seem like either of you have rationalised the bigger picture. 

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

Doesn’t that sound a little like something that Trump would say about Mexican’s, Pat? I am not offended but, I thought I would highlight it can’t be one rule for the goose and another for the gander.
 

We have a situation in London with organised crime gangs from various eastern block countries. We have to be careful of putting the anecdotal on a pedestal. I notice you and Kirk have recent commented on Ukrainians or people from a close by region that you communicate with. It doesn’t seem like either of you have rationalised the bigger picture. 

Oh boy. My point was that the negative characterizations were not invented from whole cloth. I suppose you are equally upset that so many movies have depicted Middle East terrorists as Muslim, and New York mob figures as Italian. And God forbid anyone should depict an Irish-American as a heavy drinker, or a white southerner as a redneck. 

Most cliches are based on reality. The problem, of course, is that if the only thing people see is the cliche, then they develop a prejudice. That is why alternative depictions are needed. in the case of evil Russians...I just watched the films Red and Red 2 with my son. The bag guys were pretty much all white members of the CIA. The Russians were much more likable. 

Not to lecture but it should also be pointed out that much of the improvement around the world has come from Hollywood, and its depictions of various people as humans, and not as stereotypes. That is why it's so dangerous, and is why totalitarian states like China and Russia are constantly on the lookout for positive depictions of gay people in the movies.

Disney, as an example, has lost billons of dollars in business in countries who fear its influence, and are afraid its positive depictions of certain types might influence the masses, and lessen the government's ability to villainize these people. 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Bob Ness]

4 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

I guess this thread is staying up.

Well. today Russia fired 55 missiles at Ukraine, the targets spread across the entire country. Thanks to the defense systems provided by pro-democracy allies, Ukraine was able to shoot down 47 of them. However the ones that got through have killed 11 people so far.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/26/world/russia-ukraine-news

Those were Ukranian Nasis shooting at themselves to make Putin look bad Matt.

[Bob Ness]

3 hours ago, Chris Barnard said:

Also, in holywood, they do love to cast Russians as the villains, obviously during the cold war but, in more recent times too.

Something tells me you have never tried bootstrapping an anti-Russian or Chinese show together. Try it sometime. Get back to me.

[Paul Brancato]

Poll - if you had been a delegate at the 1948 Democratic Convention would you have backed Henry Wallace over Harry Truman?

When JFK reached out to Krushchev it was anathema to Dulles and his ilk. JFK was staunchly anti-Communist, and I’m sure we’ll educated on Soviet atrocities. And yet he was far more interested in fighting for a peaceful world than in fighting Communists on the battlefield. After the Cuban Missile Crisis he withdrew American missiles from Turkey because that’s what Russia needed. That is the opposite of what NATO has been doing the last several decades. 
Meanwhile several of you think the rest of us need to be educated about Russian history in order to understand the current situation and put it in perspective, and the argument you make sounds like one the Dulles brothers would agree with, which is that we haven’t made enough of the horrors committed by the Soviets, and prefer to focus on Germany instead. Dulles thought that too, and put it into practice by enlisting, and protecting, German war criminals in order to better fight Communists. I’m supposing some of you agree with that position.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Paul Brancato