Allen Dulles and his Nazi Pals in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[Guest]

56 minutes ago, Bob Ness said:

Something tells me you have never tried bootstrapping an anti-Russian or Chinese show together. Try it sometime. Get back to me.

You’re going to have to elaborate here, Bob. I suspect the expression may be American-exclusive. 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Chris Barnard

[Kirk Gallaway]

2 hours ago, Chris Barnard said:

It doesn’t seem like either of you have rationalised the bigger picture. 

That was a very spacious post   on the last page Chris. Are you in touch enough to realize nobody's going to read it?

If that was an innocent mistake. Have you ever "rationalized the bigger picture." and taken it upon yourself to delete the unnecessary garbage to save everybody from scrolling through it? Cleaning up after yourself?

2 hours ago, Chris Barnard said:

We have a situation in London with organised crime gangs from various eastern block countries. We have to be careful of putting the anecdotal on a pedestal.

Suddenly going PC on us. Chris?

Chris, you don't realize , you've complained about this before. And despite whatever your cautioning, the bottom line is  your policies are super anti immigration.

My anecdotal stories are only my experience in traveling through neighboring  countries, and were stated as such. Why would that bother you?, because you have none of your own?.

******

Paul, I get your point but to say this, I don't think you're really being fair.:

Paul:Dulles thought that too, and put it into practice by enlisting, and protecting, German war criminals in order to better fight Communists. I’m supposing some of you agree with that position.

No I don't think you should suppose that. I think it's probably fair to say a number of younger people don't appreciate that Stalin's purges were as bad as Hitlers. The damage both of them have done to the region is a horrible legacy that in some respects the people still never got over and lasts to this day.

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

Oh boy. My point was that the negative characterizations were not invented from whole cloth. I suppose you are equally upset that so many movies have depicted Middle East terrorists as Muslim, and New York mob figures as Italian. And God forbid anyone should depict an Irish-American as a heavy drinker, or a white southerner as a redneck. 

Most cliches are based on reality. The problem, of course, is that if the only thing people see is the cliche, then they develop a prejudice. That is why alternative depictions are needed. in the case of evil Russians...I just watched the films Red and Red 2 with my son. The bag guys were pretty much all white members of the CIA. The Russians were much more likable. 

Not to lecture but it should also be pointed out that much of the improvement around the world has come from Hollywood, and its depictions of various people as humans, and not as stereotypes. That is why it's so dangerous, and is why totalitarian states like China and Russia are constantly on the lookout for positive depictions of gay people in the movies.

Disney, as an example, has lost billons of dollars in business in countries who fear its influence, and are afraid its positive depictions of certain types might influence the masses, and lessen the government's ability to villainize these people. 

Its one of those things which is quite comical. If you switched the word Russian for Mexican, half the place would be up in arms. I agree with you, most of these generalisations have more than a grain of truth in them. Life experience should teach anyone that. 
 

Would you agree that the CIA funds Holywood movies at times? Or does that sound like conspiracy theory?

Also, the perceived Hollywood improvements that you have observed, might there be a reason for that? ie other than directors, producers and writers and the general public demanding better? 
 

 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

That was a very spacious post   on the last page Chris. Are you in touch enough to realize nobody's going to read it?

If that was an innocent mistake. Have you ever "rationalized the bigger picture." and taken it upon yourself to delete the unnecessary garbage to save everybody from scrolling through it? Cleaning up after yourself?

I think it’s a manifestation of your paranoia, Kirk. 
 

6 minutes ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Suddenly going PC on us. Chris?

Pointing out a double standard. I like to stay consistent, unlike some. Someone has to set an example.  

7 minutes ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Chris, you don't realize , you've complained about this before. And despite whatever your cautioning, the bottom line is  your policies are super anti immigration.

It’s your usual distortion or mischaracterisation, Kirk. I believe in having border security and controlled immigration. That’s a pretty run of the mill POV. 
 

11 minutes ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

My anecdotal stories are only my experience in traveling through neighboring  countries, and were stated as such. Why would that bother you?, because you have none of your own?.

It doesn’t bother me at all, if anything I just thought it was a very simple post from you, without any depth of thought. 
 

Hopefully, that clears up your misunderstanding. 
 

 

[Pat Speer]

19 minutes ago, Chris Barnard said:

Its one of those things which is quite comical. If you switched the word Russian for Mexican, half the place would be up in arms. I agree with you, most of these generalisations have more than a grain of truth in them. Life experience should teach anyone that. 
 

Would you agree that the CIA funds Holywood movies at times? Or does that sound like conspiracy theory?

Also, the perceived Hollywood improvements that you have observed, might there be a reason for that? ie other than directors, producers and writers and the general public demanding better? 
 

 

I think the CIA long ago realized the propaganda value of films and has helped with the production of a number of them. As I recall, Zero Dark Thirty was created with the CIA's assistance. There is a problem with assuming all propaganda of this type is a lie, of course, just as there is a problem with assuming everything that is spun by the White House or a spokesperson for big tobacco or big oil is a lie. But it should make one think twice, IMO. 

As a one-time member of the Writers Guild, I can assure you that the stereotype for writers--leftists, progressives, etc, is mostly true. A lot of people get interested in writing and story-telling because they want to change attitudes and change  the world--that's just a fact.

In my lifetime, I've seen a lot of movement as far as race relations, along with a much more tolerant attitude towards gays. Gay marriage would have been unthinkable in 1965, or 1975, or even 1985. But the straight public's exposure to people such as Elton John, Ellen DeGeneres, and Neil Patrick Harris led to a softening of this stance, and a realization that gay people deserve a chance to be married and raise children. 

As far as myself, I was raised in white suburbia, in the 1960's. I didn't know any black people, outside of one or two kids at school. But I remember seeing MLK on TV, and he seemed pretty smart, and I watched TV and sports and appreciated the talent and/or warmth and humanity of people like Leslie Uggams, Diahann Carroll, Bill Cosby, Wiilie Mays, Maury Wills, Willie Davis, Gale Sayers and Elgin Baylor. I couldn't imagine a world in which they would be forbidden from being my neighbor, or where their kids would be prohibited from attending my school. 

So media exposure makes a difference. It changes minds and changes the world. 

 

[W. Niederhut]

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

Poll - if you had been a delegate at the 1948 Democratic Convention would you have backed Henry Wallace over Harry Truman?

When JFK reached out to Krushchev it was anathema to Dulles and his ilk. JFK was staunchly anti-Communist, and I’m sure we’ll educated on Soviet atrocities. And yet he was far more interested in fighting for a peaceful world than in fighting Communists on the battlefield. After the Cuban Missile Crisis he withdrew American missiles from Turkey because that’s what Russia needed. That is the opposite of what NATO has been doing the last several decades. 
Meanwhile several of you think the rest of us need to be educated about Russian history in order to understand the current situation and put it in perspective, and the argument you make sounds like one the Dulles brothers would agree with, which is that we haven’t made enough of the horrors committed by the Soviets, and prefer to focus on Germany instead. Dulles thought that too, and put it into practice by enlisting, and protecting, German war criminals in order to better fight Communists. I’m supposing some of you agree with that position.

Paul,

    My point about Soviet history is that many Westerners don't seem to understand Ukrainian resistance to the Soviet yoke in the context of Lenin's Red Terror, the Holodomor, the Great Purges, and the Gulag. 

    Instead, they interpret resistance to Soviet totalitarianism in terms of nefarious Yahtzee-ism.

    Nor do some of our Putin enthusiasts seem to understand the historical connections between Soviet totalitarianism and Putin's totalitarian police state in the 21st century.

    For example, have any of the Putin apologists here ever criticized Putin's murders of Russian journalists, or his persecution of opposition politicians like Navalny?  Like Hitler, Putin has completely subordinated the media to state control and suppressed political opposition and dissent.  He even murders his own KGB-aligned oligarchs if they criticize him.

    So, I'm with FDR and JFK on this one.  I'm opposed to both totalitarian fascism and totalitarian Marxist-Leninism.

    I believe in liberal democracy, whereas Putin has been openly contemptuous of liberal democracy.

Edited January 26, 2023 by W. Niederhut

[Matt Allison]

After WWII the U.S. was faced with a choice: either bring those leftover German intelligence officers into the Western fold, or allow them to be poached by the USSR and then used against us.

Not really a difficult decision.

 

Pretending that has anything to do with the current-day genocidal war crimes committed by Putin is laughable.

[Bob Ness]

Just thought I'd add this tidbit in again

2 hours ago, Chris Barnard said:

You’re going to have to elaborate here, Bob. I suspect the expression may be American-exclusive. 

Ah, sorry Chris. Trying to put together a movie or TV show in Hollywood that has significant criticism of Russia or China is difficult in my experience. Too much money in the pipeline from those sources' limits interest in that sort of production. It's not impossible but if you're not Fox or somebody it's not likely to happen. Money that washes around in Hollywood is often mixed up with dark money looking for a hiding place.

[John Cotter]

21 hours ago, Lori Spencer said:

Exactly, John. Well said. 

 

What people forget (or maybe just don’t know) about the Yahtzee genocide is that it wasn’t just Jews and Poles who were targeted for extinction. You know who Hitler hated more than Jews or Poles? Communists. Soviets. 
 

He killed 27 million communists, citizens of the USSR — which makes the Holocaust look small by comparison. 
 

That’s why Russophobia is dangerous. Once we make it okay to hate the Russians, then it’s okay to slaughter them. 

Yes, Lori. Unfortunately, for some people Russophobia seems an ineradicable article of faith, which by definition is impervious to reason.

They hated Russians during the Cold War because Russia was communist and since then they've managed to find other reasons to hate them. Such hatred is typical of the rabid emotion which fuels wars generally.

[Paul Brancato]

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

Paul,

    My point about Soviet history is that many Westerners don't seem to understand Ukrainian resistance to the Soviet yoke in the context of Lenin's Red Terror, the Holodomor, the Great Purges, and the Gulag. 

    Instead, they interpret resistance to Soviet totalitarianism in terms of nefarious Yahtzee-ism.

    Nor do some of our Putin enthusiasts seem to understand the historical connections between Soviet totalitarianism and Putin's totalitarian police state in the 21st century.

    For example, have any of the Putin apologists here ever criticized Putin's murders of Russian journalists, or his persecution of opposition politicians like Navalny?  Like Hitler, Putin has completely subordinated the media to state control and suppressed political opposition and dissent.  He even murders his own KGB-aligned oligarchs if they criticize him.

    So, I'm with FDR and JFK on this one.  I'm opposed to both totalitarian fascism and totalitarian Marxist-Leninism.

    I believe in liberal democracy, whereas Putin has been openly contemptuous of liberal democracy.

W - I appreciate that, and your perspective. Putin is contemptuous of liberal democracy. We are all against totalitarianism of any kind. The question is how did we get here and what can we do? War is unthinkable. When Putin was getting ready to invade, a process that took months, we should have interceded - kinda like JFK in Berlin. In the first place why not promise no NATO for Ukraine? NATO is not the European Union, should not be equated with Democracy. It’s a defense treaty and a militarization on Russia’s border. Ordinary Russians are what - in favor of the West surrounding them with heavy duty weaponry? In the second why not just put defensive forces in before the invasion to prevent it, while focusing all the worlds attention on it diplomatically. Did the US think he wouldn’t invade so why bother? No, every day the media was flashing red, telling us all that Putin was about to invade. If we were that certain, something I didn’t believe at the time but Biden did, why not pull out all stops to prevent it, to try and save the countless lives now being lost? Would Zelensky have refused such help? He was begging for it. Now we have tanks, soon it will be air power. What’s the end game? 
 

[W. Niederhut]

6 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

W - I appreciate that, and your perspective. Putin is contemptuous of liberal democracy. We are all against totalitarianism of any kind. The question is how did we get here and what can we do? War is unthinkable. When Putin was getting ready to invade, a process that took months, we should have interceded - kinda like JFK in Berlin. In the first place why not promise no NATO for Ukraine? NATO is not the European Union, should not be equated with Democracy. It’s a defense treaty and a militarization on Russia’s border. Ordinary Russians are what - in favor of the West surrounding them with heavy duty weaponry? In the second why not just put defensive forces in before the invasion to prevent it, while focusing all the worlds attention on it diplomatically. Did the US think he wouldn’t invade so why bother? No, every day the media was flashing red, telling us all that Putin was about to invade. If we were that certain, something I didn’t believe at the time but Biden did, why not pull out all stops to prevent it, to try and save the countless lives now being lost? Would Zelensky have refused such help? He was begging for it. Now we have tanks, soon it will be air power. What’s the end game? 
 

I agree, Paul.

I have often wondered, since the invasion, if Biden and NATO made a major mistake by refusing to negotiate with Putin about the issue of barring possible NATO expansion into Ukraine.  Why corner the bear?

Could this horrific tragedy have been prevented?

And now the war seems to be escalating even further.

The only beneficiary, as usual, is the military-industrial complex.

[Benjamin Cole]

54 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

W - I appreciate that, and your perspective. Putin is contemptuous of liberal democracy. We are all against totalitarianism of any kind. The question is how did we get here and what can we do? War is unthinkable. When Putin was getting ready to invade, a process that took months, we should have interceded - kinda like JFK in Berlin. In the first place why not promise no NATO for Ukraine? NATO is not the European Union, should not be equated with Democracy. It’s a defense treaty and a militarization on Russia’s border. Ordinary Russians are what - in favor of the West surrounding them with heavy duty weaponry? In the second why not just put defensive forces in before the invasion to prevent it, while focusing all the worlds attention on it diplomatically. Did the US think he wouldn’t invade so why bother? No, every day the media was flashing red, telling us all that Putin was about to invade. If we were that certain, something I didn’t believe at the time but Biden did, why not pull out all stops to prevent it, to try and save the countless lives now being lost? Would Zelensky have refused such help? He was begging for it. Now we have tanks, soon it will be air power. What’s the end game? 
 

Putin invaded Crimea when Obama was president, and then invaded Ukraine when Biden was president. 

Was Trump's unusual style of diplomacy actually a success? Putin felt he was not being dismissed? His concerns were on the table, being addressed?  

One would wish for better than Putin's egocentric behavior, and his war is criminal. 

But results are results. Trump had better results with Putin than Obama and Biden. 

Biden strikes me as a creature of the US intel-military establishment. Well, the track record is long, in that regard. 

Did elements within the national security state want a war in Ukraine? 

A replay of JFK and his military during the Cuba days? 

But JFK was smart and had all of his wits. Biden, not so much. 

 

 

[Matthew Koch]

22 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

Lori- if this thread is going to stay up, in the interest of transparency, please tell us who sponsors what you do.

This evening you were on Russian State Media. Don't you think you have something of a conflict of interest here?

 

 

@Lori SpencerCongrats on the interview!! 

You get the most the flak when you are over the target, as we are seeing.. 

[John Cotter]

4 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Putin invaded Crimea when Obama was president, and then invaded Ukraine when Biden was president. 

Was Trump's unusual style of diplomacy actually a success? Putin felt he was not being dismissed? His concerns were on the table, being addressed?  

One would wish for better than Putin's egocentric behavior, and his war is criminal. 

But results are results. Trump had better results with Putin than Obama and Biden. 

Biden strikes me as a creature of the US intel-military establishment. Well, the track record is long, in that regard. 

Did elements within the national security state want a war in Ukraine? 

A replay of JFK and his military during the Cuba days? 

But JFK was smart and had all of his wits. Biden, not so much. 

 

 

JFK clearly rejected the kind of rabid Russophobia which is a dominant feature of western propaganda about the war in Ukraine.

[Matthew Koch]

9 minutes ago, John Cotter said:

JFK clearly rejected the kind of rabid Russophobia which is a dominant feature of western propaganda about the war in Ukraine.

John, I shared this in the Trump thread earlier, but it is relevant for explaining the where the attitudes for the RussiaPhobia came from explained by Adam Maté.

William you might want to watch and take notes.. 

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Matthew Koch