Prayer Man More Than A Fuzzy Picture

[Roger Odisio]

All of this ignores what Adams herself told Barry Ernest in the Girl on the Stairs about the alleged sighting of Shelley and Lovelady upon reaching the first floor.  She said she didn't remember saying that and went on to recount how those lines in the official copy of her testimony stood out to her as phony.  She and Ernest believe that passage was inserted after she had signed off on her testimony.

One way to settle this is to look at the stenographer tapes of Adams' interview, which can't be changed like typed testimony  In 2012, Ernest filed a FOIA with NARA seeking those tapes.  He was told the tapes are missing, as well as the tapes of Shelley and Lovelady interviewed the same day as Adams. 

Covering all tracks.

[Roger Odisio]

40 minutes ago, Roger Odisio said:

All of this ignores what Adams herself told Barry Ernest in the Girl on the Stairs about the alleged sighting of Shelley and Lovelady upon reaching the first floor.  She said she didn't remember saying that and went on to recount how those lines in the official copy of her testimony stood out to her as phony.  She and Ernest believe that passage was inserted after she had signed off on her testimony.

One way to settle this is to look at the stenographer tapes of Adams' interview, which can't be changed like typed testimony  In 2012, Ernest filed a FOIA with NARA seeking those tapes.  He was told the tapes are missing, as well as the tapes of Shelley and Lovelady interviewed the same day as Adams. 

Covering all tracks.

Even if you somehow believe Adams' sense of timing was off, there remains the problem of Dorothy Garner, Adams's supervisor.

Garner stayed on the fourth floor while Adams and Styles went down the steps and was still there when Truly and a cop reached her.  Without ever seeing or hearing Oswald.

They never officially interviewed Garner and anything she might have told them has been disappeared.

Except for the famous letter from Asst US Attorney Martha Stroud to Lee Rankin, June 2, 1964, which said:  "Miss Garner, Miss Adams' supervisor, stated this morning that after Miss Adams went downstairs she (Miss Garner) saw Mr. Truly and the policeman come up."

According to Flip de May, writing in 2017, the letter was "miss-classified...and only re-appeared decades later, found amidst a stack of otherwise unimportant documents."   Rats. Foiled again.

Oswald wasn't on the 6th floor at the time of the murder.  Where was he?

 

 

[Pat Speer]

11 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

All of this ignores what Adams herself told Barry Ernest in the Girl on the Stairs about the alleged sighting of Shelley and Lovelady upon reaching the first floor.  She said she didn't remember saying that and went on to recount how those lines in the official copy of her testimony stood out to her as phony.  She and Ernest believe that passage was inserted after she had signed off on her testimony.

One way to settle this is to look at the stenographer tapes of Adams' interview, which can't be changed like typed testimony  In 2012, Ernest filed a FOIA with NARA seeking those tapes.  He was told the tapes are missing, as well as the tapes of Shelley and Lovelady interviewed the same day as Adams. 

Covering all tracks.

Adams was made to feel like an idiot for what she'd said about Lovelady and Shelley. So it's not exactly a surprise that she would much much later say she never said it. But she said it more than once, and Lovelady and Shelley both confirmed that she'd seen them, albeit indirectly. 

It should also be noted that the transcript to her testimony is in the archives, along with her hand-written notations. There was no attempt on her part to remove the testimony regarding seeing Lovelady and Shelley, quite obviously because she stood by her testimony. 

As far as the stenographer tapes...they were alll destroyed beck in 1964. 

FWIW, it's clear to me that if there was a deliberate attempt to change the record and make it look like Adams said something that could be used to suggest she didn't come down the stairs when she said she did, that Lovelady and Shelley's testimony would also have been changed. Well, their testimony suggests they did see her, but weren't sure where they saw her.

As stated, you can tell what was going on by the questions never asked. Neither Lovelady nor Shelley were asked if they'd seen Baker and Truly approach the stairs. This was one of the most important questions they could have been asked. Baker said he saw two unidentified men standing at the back of the building. Shelley said Truly told him to guard the elevator. So why was no attempt made to figure out the identity of these men? Or just when Truly told Shelley to watch the elevator. 

I think we know. The fix was in. Ball/Belin decided to pin it on the Oswald, and to do what they needed to make out that some of Oswald's co-workers were idiots. Adams wasn't alone. Piper and Dougherty were also set up. 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Pete Mellor]

Error with post, full review below.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Pete Mellor
Full post below

[Andrej Stancak]

22 hours ago, David Josephs said:

I appreciate what you are claiming Andrej, I simply disagree with your identifying "tie-man" as Shelley when I believe it was Molina.  Shelley was rail thin. Molina was not...  That no one mentions him is quite odd.  He also says that there was no policeman with Truly entering the building

David: only one man in the doorway was wearing a dark coat and dark tie. The photograph of Bill Shelley taken on that day show him wearing a dark coat and a tie. Thus, the man in the centre of the doorway had to be Bill Shelley. The top left panel in the composite below shows Bill Shelley (red ellipse).

 

Unfortunately, there is no photograph of Joe Molina taken on Friday, November 22, and the doorway photograps (Wiegman, Altgens, Darnell) show the person I assume is him shielding his eyes with his forearm making his hair not visible. I have indentified Joe Molina as the person standing in the east part of the doorway, on one of the top steps, wearing white shirt, and shielding his eyes by the process of elimination. 

Returning to Bill Shelley, he had distinct dark and quite voluminous hair. His hair forms a horizontal dark strip on top of a white oval (his face). This dark horizonta strip can be seen in that figure in the centre of the doorway in Darnell and Wiegman. If that figure belonged to Molina, there would not be any distinct dark strip on top of a white oval shape, rather only one oval owing to Joe Molina showing clear balding.

The composite below shows the likely locations of the doorway occupants. None of the testimonies mentioned Molina as standing nearby the cluster of people including Shelley, Sanders, Stanton, Lovelady and Frazier. 

Taken together, the most likely candidate for the person wearing a dark tie and standing in the centre of the doorway was Bill Shelley. There is no straightforward way to identify Joe Molina other than the process of elimination. 

However, making my case for Bill Shelley being the man in the centre of the doorway, both men - the central man and the man shielding his eyes (who I believe was Molina) stood in the doorway in Darnell film. As Darnell film shows the doorway at about 30 seconds after the last shot and Shelley himself told the Warren Commission to have remained standing at his spot (did not do anything for a minute), there was no way Vicky Adams could encounter Bill Shelley in the back of the first floow as she got to that place about 30-45 seconds after the last shot.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Andrej Stancak

[Pete Mellor]

I have the Kindle app on my pc, so bought 'Prayer Man: More Than A Fuzzy Picture' which I finished reading yesterday.

My review:-

Bart Kamp's book presents the reader with documents, photographs and films from W.C. testimonies, newspaper sources, research archives, JFKA published books as well as information from internet forums (including the Education Forum) all aided by the proliferation of links throughout the Kindle text.

In over five hundred and seventy pages this book covers Bart's ten year investigation of the blurry figure in the TSBD front steps at the time of the shooting in Dealey Plaza, found in the films of Dave Weigman and James Darnell.  Perhaps only until researchers are able to obtain access to the original film, now locked away in a safe at NBC's offices in New York will this matter ever be resolved.  However, Bart's work is covering much more than 'a fuzzy picture'.  It also challenges the famous 2nd floor lunchroom encounter between Oswald, Truly and DPD Officer Baker as well as casting doubts on the many aspects of 'so called evidence' presented by the Dallas Police over that assassination weekend, accompanied with a chronological order of events over the three days inside City Hall.  As Malcolm Blunt writes in his Foreword, "the reader may discover, at last, a true representation of Lee Harvey Oswald's final hours."

Also, these intriguing pages include a comprehensive floor by floor study of the TSBD building and the persons employed therein, as well as their whereabouts, before, during and immediately after the killing of Kennedy.  To quote Blunt's Foreword once again, "Bart's huge effort has produced the ultimate reference point for future authors and researchers working on this aspect of the Kennedy assassination."

[David Josephs]

47 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

David: only one man in the doorway was wearing a dark coat and dark tie. The photograph of Bill Shelley taken on that day show him wearing a dark coat and a tie. Thus, the man in the centre of the doorway had to be Bill Shelley.

That logic does not follow Andrej.  Shelley in a suit does not automatically make him the man with a tie in Altgens, in fact: 

When Shelley was shown the Altgens photo he said he was not shown in the photo while ID'ing Lovelady.

Shelley was rail thin and the "tie-man" in Altgens does not seem that way to me.  

 

 

[Andrej Stancak]

5 hours ago, David Josephs said:

That logic does not follow Andrej. 

David: the logic and common sense work pretty well in this case. If Molina were the man with black tie, e.g., in Altgens6, where is Shelley who indeed wore a dark tie on that day? There should then be two men on top steps wearing ties, but this was not the case.

Altgens6 does not allow any judgment on whether the person wearing a dark tie was slim or heavy. We only see a part of that person's trunk.

 

[Andrej Stancak]

On 8/9/2023 at 5:59 PM, Pat Speer said:

Shelley and Lovelady left the front steps within seconds. Although they made varying estimates as to how long they spent outside, Lovelady made clear they spent more time at the front of the building than they did overlooking the tracks. This puts them then at the back of the building within a minute or two

Pat:

let us compare the times required by Vicky Adams and Shelley&Lovelady to get to the back of the first floor.

Vicky Adams: she left her location at the window on the fourth floor immediately after the last shot. It took her about 10-15 seconds to get to the stairway, and about 7 seconds to descend to the next foor, and there were 3 floors to make. Thus, she would be out of the stairs in the first floor not later than 45 seconds.

Shelley: he did not do anything for about 1 minute after the last shot (his WC testimony) which means he stood at the spot he occupied during the shooting and that spot was on the top landing in front of the glass door. Therefore, he can can be seen at that spot in Darnell which captures the moments about 30 seconds after the last shot. While standing there, he heard Gloria Calvery shouting that the President had been shot (confirmed by Shelley and Lovelady) which event could only happen after tens of seconds because Gloria Calvery had to run from her location on South Elm to the Depository building. Sandy Larsen has pointed out that the lady wearing dark scarf and approaching the doorway in Darnell was actually Gloria Calvery. 

Thus, we have about one minute of time when Shelley did not do anything. He and Lovelady then walked briskly toward the railroad yard but they were stopped by Police. They spent about a minute to contemplate what to do next, and eventually they entered the Depository building via a side door. They then walk toward the back of the first floor which would take them another 10-15 seconds. 

Shelley's route toward the back of the first floor would take at least 3 minutes. Vicky Adams reached the back of the in less than a minute. While Shelley and Lovelady were listening to Gloria Calvery's report of what happened, Vicky Adams was already somewhere on second floor soon to reach the first floor.

There is just no possibility that Vicky Adams could see Shelley and Lovelady when she reached the first floor.

The whole Lovelady&Shelley story about how they saw Vicky Adams was concocted by the Warren Commission to allow Lee Oswald to descend from the sixth floor to the second floor without encountering Vicky Adams or being heard/seen by Vicky Adams. That was the whole problem. For that reason, her testimony for the Warren Commission has been manipulated. All details about Vicky Adams's case have been researched excellently by Barry Ernest.    

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Pat Speer]

11 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Pat:

let us compare the times required by Vicky Adams and Shelley&Lovelady to get to the back of the first floor.

Vicky Adams: she left her location at the window on the fourth floor immediately after the last shot. It took her about 10-15 seconds to get to the stairway, and about 7 seconds to descend to the next foor, and there were 3 floors to make. Thus, she would be out of the stairs in the first floor not later than 45 seconds.

Shelley: he did not do anything for about 1 minute after the last shot (his WC testimony) which means he stood at the spot he occupied during the shooting and that spot was on the top landing in front of the glass door. Therefore, he can can be seen at that spot in Darnell which captures the moments about 30 seconds after the last shot. While standing there, he heard Gloria Calvery shouting that the President had been shot (confirmed by Shelley and Lovelady) which event could only happen after tens of seconds because Gloria Calvery had to run from her location on South Elm to the Depository building. Sandy Larsen has pointed out that the lady wearing dark scarf and approaching the doorway in Darnell was actually Gloria Calvery. 

Thus, we have about one minute of time when Shelley did not do anything. He and Lovelady then walked briskly toward the railroad yard but they were stopped by Police. They spent about a minute to contemplate what to do next, and eventually they entered the Depository building via a side door. They then walk toward the back of the first floor which would take them another 10-15 seconds. 

Shelley's route toward the back of the first floor would take at least 3 minutes. Vicky Adams reached the back of the in less than a minute. While Shelley and Lovelady were listening to Gloria Calvery's report of what happened, Vicky Adams was already somewhere on second floor soon to reach the first floor.

There is just no possibility that Vicky Adams could see Shelley and Lovelady when she reached the first floor.

The whole Lovelady&Shelley story about how they saw Vicky Adams was concocted by the Warren Commission to allow Lee Oswald to descend from the sixth floor to the second floor without encountering Vicky Adams or being heard/seen by Vicky Adams. That was the whole problem. For that reason, her testimony for the Warren Commission has been manipulated. All details about Vicky Adams's case have been researched excellently by Barry Ernest.    

Nope. The very films you claim show Oswald on the front steps show Shelley and Lovelady race towards the train yards. They were not stopped by cops. They then came back in through the side so Shelley could call his wife. 

And we know this took a minute or so because... 

1. Adams said she saw them when she came down from above, and placed them near a phone.

2. Shelley said he saw her but couldn't remember when...and this would have been the only time that made sense. 

3. Lovelady said he saw a girl when he came in but he couldn't say for sure if it was Vickie, and Adams and Styles were the only girls to be at the back of the building at the time.

4. Baker said he saw two white men at the back of the building when he came in, and Shelley and Lovelady are the only two that make sense.

'5. Shelley said Truly asked him to guard the elevator. As Truly went upstairs within two minutes of the shots, and didn't come down till 7 or 8 minutes later, when cops were pouring in the building, this only makes sense if Shelley and Lovelady were the two men at the back of the building.

6. Sawyer said he came In at 4 minutes or so after the shooting, and was escorted up to the fourth floor by an employee waiting near the front elevator.

7. Shelley said he escorted a cop up to the fourth floor shortly after the shots. It is clear this cop was Sawyer. 

Now, it is quite telling, IMO, that Ball/Belin never created a timeline of the movements of the employees. If they had it would have been clear Shelley and Lovelady were on the first floor within a minute or so of the shots, and saw Adams come down...BEFORE Baker and Truly reached the back of the building.

8. This fact was supported, moreover, by Lovelady, who told the HSCA he saw Baker and Truly run up the stairs. Well, huh, in the WC scenario he was outside at the time. 

Edited August 11, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Gerry Down]

Lovelady saw Baker and Truly run up the stairs? Maybe he meant he saw them run up the front steps of the tsbd.

With regard to the two white men that Baker saw. There appears to be less people on the front steps of the tsbd in the Darnell footage than at the time of the altgens 6 photo. I wonder if some of the people on the steps at the time of the altgens 6 photo had gone back inside by the time of the Darnell footage. 

Truly most likely asked Shelley to guard the elevator after coming back down. If truly was so thoughtful to get someone to guard the front elevator, then wouldn't he also have got someone to guard the back elevators while he ran up the stairs?

[Gerry Down]

Plus your scenario has Shelley run into the tsbd right after the shots, call his wife, and then be told by truly to guard the elevator which he did?

Why would Shelley call his wife so quick? As truly and Baker reached the second floor lunchroom 90 seconds after the shots, Shelley would have had to call his wife less than 60 seconds after the shots had been fired according to your scenario if I understand it correctly.

[David Josephs]

17 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

where is Shelley who indeed wore a dark tie on that day?

Can ask the same about Frazier

Mr. BALL - Which is Commission's Exhibit No. 362. Can you come over here and show us about where you were standing?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. Like I told you this was an entrance right here.
Mr. BALL - Yes, sir.
Mr. FRAZIER - We have a bar rail running about half way up here. This was the first step and I was standing right around there.
Mr. BALL - Put a mark there. Your name is Frazier, put an "F" there for Frazier.

You did see that I posted this the first time right?  Why do we not see either man in Altgens?  Either Wesley has it wrong, or they are farther into the shade of the EAST corner of the landing.

The logical flaw is Since A, then B.  Since Shelley wore a tie and jacket that day, then he must be the man behind Lovelady wearing a tie to the exclusion of all others...  When he tells you himself he is not in the Altgens photo.

Since you do not know what Molina wore, and Molina puts himself in that exact spot, it is very possible Molina is "tie-man" in Altgens...  especially since Shelley says it's not him.

Really not the point...  Even Frazier does not put a person into the WEST corner of the landing...  wonder why?

[Jonathan Cohen]

2 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Even Frazier does not put a person into the WEST corner of the landing...  wonder why?

Because he didn't see and/or wasn't paying attention to whoever was there?

[Pat Speer]

8 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

Lovelady saw Baker and Truly run up the stairs? Maybe he meant he saw them run up the front steps of the tsbd.

With regard to the two white men that Baker saw. There appears to be less people on the front steps of the tsbd in the Darnell footage than at the time of the altgens 6 photo. I wonder if some of the people on the steps at the time of the altgens 6 photo had gone back inside by the time of the Darnell footage. 

Truly most likely asked Shelley to guard the elevator after coming back down. If truly was so thoughtful to get someone to guard the front elevator, then wouldn't he also have got someone to guard the back elevators while he ran up the stairs?

I spent months studying the statements and movements of the TSBD employees and the first responders. My findings are reported in my chapter Pinning the Tale on the the Oswald. 

Here are the key findings, all of which are supported by multiple statements.

1. Oswald came down for lunch, and was seen by multiple witnesses.

2. Vickie Adams and Sandy Styles raced down the stairs shortly after the shots and did not see Oswald.

3. Jack Dougherty was downstairs at the time of the shooting, and took an elevator upstairs a few minutes later, after Baker and Truly ran up the stirs.

This means that an elevator came down as Baker and Truly ran up...and that Dougherty was not in this elevator. And this suggests that someone other than Oswald descended in this elevator from the fifth or sixth floor after the shooting.