Joe Bauer

Obviously JFK was holding off many major foreign policy actions until he was re-elected.

Important photo WN. It graphically reflects the close and long term relationship between Lansdale and Dulles. No question about that. Who would you think Lansdale would be more loyal to...Dulles or JFK? That is why I asked the rational question earlier as to wondering how Lansdale felt personally about JFK firing Dulles and Cabell. Very hard to believe Lansdale didn't have some strong personal feelings about that dramatic action on JFK's part. Did Lansdale feel it was undeserved? One would assume so. So the question as to whether Lansdale had any animosity toward JFK is a wide open and very important one. As well as the depth of such. I assume the proposition that Lansdale had no animosity toward JFK is being offered to downplay any anti-JFK feelings on Lansdale's part to counter any theories that Lansdale might had any reason to be considered with some suspicion in any way regards any role ( or motive ) in the affair. And the appointment of Allan Dulles to the Warren Commission will always be one of most outrageously incongruous and suspicious actions ever. You don't say to the American people as LBJ did in his Walter Cronkite interview that the panel was made up of the most "bi-partisan" men, when one of them was fired by JFK himself from his highest power and ego position and in a way that surely offended Dulles to a level of red faced, fist pounding outrage. Dulles referring to JFK..."he thought he was a little God." Dulles appointment to that panel instantly tainted it's impartiality integrity to a mind blowing crazy and suspicious degree. Both Lansdale and Dulles's dark and dirty deeds in their careers make Prouty's super hyped ones here seem like childs play...imo anyways.

The following is Fletcher Prouty's own response to accusations of extremist ties, from April 1996: "Esquire magazine published an article, in which they just made up these things, I've never written for Liberty Lobby. I've spoken as a commercial speaker, they paid me to speak and then I left. They print a paragraph or two of my speech same as they would of anybody else, but I've never joined them. I don't subscribe to their newspaper, I never go to their own meetings, but they had a national convention at which asked me to speak and they paid me very, very well. I took my money and went home and that's it. I go to the meeting, I go home, I don't join. That sole speech was years ago and was no different than the speech I gave at the Holocaust Memorial Conference. I spoke my own words and ideas. I do admit to having been a rather active public speaker for all types of audiences, on a commercial except for Rotary, They're gratuitous from my point of view. "The funny thing was two months earlier I had spoken at the Holocaust Conference for the second annual meeting of the Holocaust Group which I learned later the Liberty Lobby is completely opposed to. Dr. Littel, of the Holocaust Memorial organization invited me to attend and make a few comments, as others were requested. Well, they put all this in this Esquire magazine but did it all backwards, as though I was a member, writing with these people or joining them. The only club I've joined is the Rotary Club ! The attempt of character assassination is a sign you have become a small ..." Obviously MG doesn't give Prouty's Liberty Lobby defense response above one ounce of credibility. It seems fairly clear Prouty was really into making money with his post military career business endeavors. Speaking fees brought in a lot of income for him. His less than wise discernment in choosing his paying customers obviously came back to seriously hurt his reputation. I remember when Hillary Clinton took enormous heat for her taking huge fees ( $350,000 or more ) for just a few hours of speaking to Wall Street giant Goldman Sachs. Progressive Democrats pilloried Hillary and saw this as a shameful sell out action on her part. When HC was confronted about her controversial acceptance of Wall Street monies...she weakly muttered...'Well, that's what they were willing to pay." ? Her hubby has also made 10's of millions on the speaking fee tour. The speaking fee tour has always been an absolute gold mine for politicians, former government and even retired military figures. For decades. Reagan got 2 MILLION dollars just for flying to Japan and making two speaking stops there right after he got out of office. Come on...we all know these insanely huge speaking fee payments are usually laundered pay offs. GW Bush actually said just before he left office...something like he couldn't wait to hit the speaking tour golden trough. "Everybody" jumps into that golden pond. Thousands of characters. Even "Moose Momma" Sarah Palin joined the club! 100's of thousands for what? Performing cheer leader type jumps and Moose hunting calls! Prouty obviously did a worst case scenario bad judgment job in choosing his speaking fee customers. His reputation and credibility has been hugely tainted as a result for doing so.

Lee Oswald knew that his relationship with Marina was going South. She was growing more and more disaffected toward him in so many major ways. She boldly shared with Jeanne De Mohrenschildt how Lee didn't come close to satisfying her sexually. How he would rather read his books than meet her needs. She also said to Jeanne De..."look at this idiot." He buys guns when we need family items. Jeanne De stated she was really taken back by Marina's blunt statements regards her strong dislike and unhappiness with Lee. Jeanne De told Marina she would be divorcing Lee eventually. And how she needed to learn English to make a way for herself. Marina was also affected by the White Russians who had done so well financially. She didn't want to live the barely making it life with Lee she had known. I think so many people that met and interacted with her were trying to affect her into leaving Lee. Ruth Paine didn't like Lee at all. Without saying it directly to Marina, I am sure Ruth Paine gave body language signals to her that weren't Lee favorable. When Peter Gregory watched Marina make a misstep with baby Junie in her arms and fall on her back and witnessed Lee's cruel reaction to her including chastising her for putting baby Junie in harm's way...you can be sure he hated Lee for that. Most of the talk with the White Russians regards Marina and Lee most probably centered on their dislike of Lee and wishing Marina to leave him. Lee's crazy dangerous schemes for sure also added to Marina's disaffection. I think Ruth Paine was relieved for Marina when Lee was killed by Jack Ruby. Maybe Marina herself felt some relief from all the stress of living with Lee after he was killed as well?

I'm sure Brussell got some things wrong. She reported thousands of research findings. Yet, if only 60 to 70% of what she shared was true...it was watershed info. I had never heard of Reinhard Gehlen before Russell's broadcasts. Yet, she was right on about that story and other top Germans being secretly protected and incorporated into our intel and research realm. Brussell was a research machine. Great grand daughter of the I. Magnin founders Mary and Isaac Magnin. I. Magnin eventually was taken over by Macy's Corp. At one point, I.Magnin had a boutique in the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angleses. The same hotel where Robert F. Kennedy was murdered. Brussell attended both Stanford and Berkeley Universities.

"If the average American adult knew 'half' of what is really going on in the world, they would go out into their backyard and shoot themselves."

Could someone here in this debate offer an explanation/theory as to the when, how and why Prouty went from being a highly respected and very high responsibility tasked military officer for decades ( who obviously wasn't considered a mentally off-centered person during his duty time ) to the type of extreme fringe conspiracy kook character person he is being labeled as in his post-military civilian years here? Was Prouty of the same post-military mind set in his military time but just keeping it to himself out of career self-preservation? It seems a curious conundrum to me how highest command people like Marine Corp Commandant general Victor Krulak could have such a career long respect relationship with Colonel Prouty as well as dozens of other high position military ( for sure at least some of the Joint Chiefs ) intel agency and even civilians similarly inclined, where common sense tells you these no nonsense by-the-book big shots would never have countenanced the fringe public spoutings and associations Michael Griffith has so extensively ascribed to the civilian FP. The philosophical belief stand of the retired civilian FP seems so contrary to that which most all of Prouty's military career counterparts would have found irrational and unacceptable. Did FP have some type of paranoid conspiracy believing nervous breakdown after his military service? Did the JFKA and maybe even the RFKA trigger this? Did he just succumb to the financial gain temptation of writing outrageous claims regards the JFKA and other subjects of high controversy which would increase his book selling interests and advance and royalty income? General Walker was who he was consistently throughout his military and retired civilian life. I don't see that with Prouty...do you?

This above post takes me back to my Mae Brussell radio talk show listening days here in Carmel/Monterey, CA. She shared so much information like this. It was fascinating deep research stuff. Unlike anything anyone else had ever dug up. She would speak fast and non-stop. At times it was exhausting to stay with her for a hour. Just read ( or listen to ) what she had discovered and was sharing however and realize that without her we surely would've never known the full extent of this sinister dark forces connection aspect of our secret government.

Sandy, one post here goes into the Hunt/Lane libel trial as it pertained to Liberty Lobby history and Prouty's alignment with them later on. That poster described how the jurors who threw Hunt's lawsuit and previous award out stated they did so not because of Lane's claim of Hunt's possible JFKA involvement but that the publication did not publish their Hunt article out of malice. A negative take on Liberty Lobby and Prouty's association with them worth debating imo.

I think you make a good point here Sandy.

Does Fletcher Prouty's association with Liberty Lobby destroy his entire JFKA claims credibility 100%? Should it? It's being credibly asserted here that Prouty thrust himself into some pretty bad company in his later years. Still, no one here can deny his remarkable, high achieving, highest position military career and the respect he had from his high command peers during that time.

How does one consider E. Howard Hunt's near-end-of-life claim ( tape recorded by his son St. John Hunt) where he describes the JFKA as "the Big Event" and details his participation in it as "a benchwarmer" and then describes a mobile- safe house traveling "team" scenario that does match Marita Lorenz story in certain ways? Same characters involved such as Frank Sturgis. For those jurors on Hunt's libel trial jury who dismissed Lane's proposition of Hunt's involvement in the JFKA I wonder if Hunt's widely available taped ( confessional? ) tale made them pause a bit and reconsider whether Hunt truly was involved? Hunt's "Big Event" story is always met with MSM ignoring silence. As if it is so preposterous it isn't even worth mentioning or discussion. Same with Lorenz's tale? Did anyone ever come up with the code word term "Big Event" regards the JFKA before Hunt? Did anyone before Hunt ever link or even mention "Cord Meyer" as a possible suspect in the planning of the JFKA? CIA covert agent Frank ( Fiorini ) Sturgis did not deny Lorenz gun running trip to Dallas story just days before 11,22,1963 when he was asked about it on the national TV shown Geraldo Rivera show. So what was "The Big Lie?" Hunt saying he was back in Virginia/DC the day of the JFKA? Or was he in some way a participant in the "mobile affair " as he described in his "Big Event" tale?

Trying to bullseye hit targets ( the size of JFK's head at 265 feet away?) that are moving versus stationary is 2 to 3 X more difficult. And in the case of JFK we are talking "3 different movment dynamics!" JFK's limo was moving not just farther away from the shooter at 5 to 11 MPH, but also on a downward grade direction as Elm dropped down to go under the overpass. On top of the limo movement you had JFK himself moving between the 2nd and third shot. He jumps up with his clenched fists going up to his throat. He then turns in distress to look at Jackie. Jackie then reaches out and pulls JFK closer to her by two feet to his left. So, JFK's upper body was also moving significantly between those last two shots. That's three movement dynamics. A shooter, even with a scope would have to readjust for all those movements...and in just a few seconds time? Even with those challenges the shooter gets a perfect bullseye hit on JFK's 10 inch high and 8 inch wide head with all that readjusting for target movement? And top marksmen had a very tough time just hitting "stationary" targets that size and at that distance?

Mind boggling!

It is a very plausible story. It's repeated just months later when drifter Curtis Crafard fills Estes former position for two months right up to the day of the JFKA. Crafard then does exactly what Estes says he did. Got the hell out of Dodge...like right then and there! No notice to his boss Ruby. Hardly any clothes. One bag. $7 in his pocket. Hits the road hitchhiking to get so far away from Dallas ( mostly at night and in freezing early Winter Mid-West weather!) and settles in right up to the Canadian border? That was the desperate actions of a man who definitely "knew too much" and was fearing for his life. The uncanny similarities between Estes and Crafard regards their character, positions and desperate spur of the moment run away actions begs valid curiosity.

Jim Di; You sat down to lunch with Mamet and Oliver Stone not too long ago. In Beverly Hills was it? I know you only had 1 to 2 hours but per chance did Mamet's JFK "who done it" thriller film project "Black Bird" ever come up? 12 or more years ago I believe it was seriously gaining steam and even had Cate Blanchett okayed for the starring role, and then it fell apart? The basic story line was something about an Australian woman ( Blanchett ) innocently being called to Los Angeles to settle her late uncle's estate where upon she discovers he may have been involved in some way to the JFKA through his work as one of the top special effects men in the film industry? Great plot line for such a thriller imo. Wish it had been made. I read where Mamet himself decided he didn't want to do it. He had become more aligned with the "lone gunman" point of view regards the JFKA? Whoever did Giancana and Roselli had authority from much higher levels than themselves. Either other top bosses or agencies. Watched a documentary on Albert Anastasia ( The Mad Hatter ) mob killer last night. This guy was perhaps the most prolific hit man in mob history. He and his New York City based hand picked death squad crew ( known as "Murder Incorporated" ) may have taken out up to 2,000 men. Anastasia himself was shot to death in his favorite barbershop on orders from the "NYC five family Commission" greatly in part because he violated one the Mob's most sacred rules. Anastasia murdered another Mob boss. Without authorization. So, whoever took out Giancana and Roselli...had to have had authority to do so from the highest rungs of mob power...or even higher? The interview of Bill Harvey's widow in her rest home days was simply astounding. It is incredibly one of the most revealing "first hand" accounts of Harvey's true nefarious alliances and inclinations, and his deep hatred of the Kennedy's, especially RFK. Mrs. Harvey ( herself employed by the agency) tells of her and her husband's love and respect for Mafiosi Johnny Roselli whom she declared was a "True Patriot" versus her and her husband's opposite feelings toward JFK, RFK and even Jackie Kennedy..."they were real scum." Mrs. Harvey's revelations are so disturbingly shocking in their clear twisted loss of respect and loyalty toward their own president versus love and respect for an organized crime figure. We now know through Mrs. Harvey's statements that Bill Harvey certainly had the deep Kennedy hatred motivation regards any possible connection to the JFKA or in the least knowledge of it's planning and execution. When highest members of our agencies top covert teams ( Harvey was CIA station chief in Rome on 11,22,1963 ) are provenly too close to organized crime figures and at the same time despising of their own president, who is then murdered...one cannot help but ponder the possibility that they cannot be totally ruled out regards suspicion in that affair. Imo anyways. Every now and then I pull up the interview of Mrs. Bill Harvey...just to refresh it's ominously disturbing message in my JFKA suspicion thought bank.

True.

RFK Jr's views on Sirhan Sirhan and his father's assassination alone would negatively effect his candidacy. To a serious degree. In my mind however, that would be a reason to vote for him. It also would take a massive effort of funding to get RFK Jr. in any position of serious candidacy name recognition and viability. We are talking over a billion dollars easy in today's world of media publicity coverage costs. Oprah would have to have him on several times let alone even back him. Every late night talk show. Howard Stern. 60 Minutes. Sunday morning political shows. National magazine cover spreads. Trump's machine used the Leni Reifenstahl rally shtick to the letter. Huge patriotic flags everywhere, pre-screened audiences with "Applause-Cheer" prompting ques and teary " God Bless America" song and music accompaniment ... and it worked! I just don't see RFK Jr. wanting to do such rallies however. The Hollywood celebrity network would have to come out in full force for RFK Jr. starting right away to help in the name recognition realm. As well as other celebrity networks - sports, music, famous families, etc. The women vote is everything. Their number one concerns? Womens body rights, equal opportunity versus men, personal physical safety. Their own and children's health and safety including gun violence. The Hispanic vote as their numbers are massive. The majority of California's huge population alone ( over 40 million!) is Hispanic. The black vote. Would RFK Jr. be willing to pick another black VP candidate as Biden did? Wall Street! If Michael Bloomberg and his wealthy 1% power group feel threatened by you...you are gone! What ever it takes. Heck, Bloomberg spent 1 billion of his own money in just 2 months alone in the Democratic primaries to get vote leading Warren and Sanders out of there and Biden in. Billions to them is nothing. RFK Jr. will not meet and overcome all those viable candidacy support challenges, imo anyways.

This was referenced in the main stream news several times yesterday. My wife and I read two accounts on line yesterday.

I once watched a video of Frank Sinatra in front of a Nevada gaming commission board while they were grilling him about his background before they decided to give his Cal-Neva Lodge the permit go ahead or not. For the first time I thought I saw the real dark side of him. He was surly, defiant, angry and even coldly intimidating as any mob boss. He was actually scary in his tough guy talk and look. A far cry from his warm and smiling stage and public personae.

Regards the above photo: Old proverb ... "People judge you by the friends you keep." Hey, why not a fifth party presidential candidacy run next year. The JFKA research party! Mark Knight and Kathy Beckett for Potus and VP? Or, the other way around. Would make for some dynamite primary debate discussion and energy. We could be the " M.A.C.A." party. "Make America Care Again." About the truth ...regards the JFKA. Wish I could get more than two hours sleep at night. 8 hours a night on the forum doesn't help.

My goodness. It's all one big octopus of corruption! Tentacles everywhere! Don't forget Clint Murchison's Del Charro resort in La Jolla, Ca. Where guests there included members of organized crime and from time to time, J. Edgar Hoover and his live in friend Clyde Tolson, Nixon, Joe McCarthy and on and on. Texas was a virtual "corruption incorporated" state. Where if you needed to, one could get trial verdict convicted murderers off scot-free ... LBJ and Malcolm Wallace! Now THAT's "Texas Style" corruption. And monsters like Skorzeny and his wife are resurrected, protected and used by Texas connection interests? The connection mentioned regarding Ginny and Clarence Thomas "friend" Harlan Crow and JFK/Texas times Trammel Crow are valid and should not be cause for moving this thread off the main forum ...imo anyways.

WOW!

The employee turnover rate in strip joints like Ruby's was laughable. In a year's time it must have been 3 or 400 percent. Employees there at the time of the JFKA ... Bill DeMarr, Wally Weston, Curtis Crafard, Jada, Little Lynn, etc. etc. ... all just there for weeks or a couple of months. Strippers, stage acts, musicians, servers, clean up men, managers. Seems like if you wanted to work there you just had to stick out a 1 to 2 month wait and something would always open up. Nancy Hamilton only worked there for 2 to 3 months. I could easily see Rose Cherami ( Melba Mercades ) getting a quick, short term job there as she claimed. Like the musician fellow mentioned in GD original post (James Odell Estes?) I believe it is numerically certain that of the hundreds of former short term former employees who worked for Jack Ruby at the Carousel and the Vegas club throughout the years...that many more of them besides this guy had some observations to share about Ruby and characters ( high station and low and police officers and maybe some Mafia types as well ) that visited his club or Ruby personally there, that would be of high suspicion nefarious interest to investigators. Yet, also like Estes...they would be unwilling to come forward...forever. Why? Why open themselves up to all the bad things that happened to others who did come forward? They had themselves and their families to worry about. It is a certainty that many, many people who ever met and/or interacted with the main JFKA involved characters at one time or another never shared what they knew about them. In total, now THAT would be a fascinating story to know.

Could you expand? Are you saying Sinatra was doing Monroe before during and after her marriage to Joltin Joe? And DiMaggio wanted to "paste" Sinatra for this? It is true DiMaggio forbade Sinatra from attending Monroe's funeral...correct? DiMaggio hating Sinatra for doing his wife would make sense.