The Paine Files

[James DiEugenio]

Nice synopsis, Gene.  Same question as Paul.

[David Andrews]

Playing Devil's advocate: Is there a record of those FPCC flyers being in a barrel in the Paine garage?  Were they listed in any DPD inventory?

Might Buddy Walthers have been induced to mention them in order to further establish Oswald as politically maladjusted to the WC?

[Joe Bauer]

57 minutes ago, David Andrews said:

Playing Devil's advocate: Is there a record of those FPCC flyers being in a barrel in the Paine garage?  Were they listed in any DPD inventory?

Might Buddy Walthers have been induced to mention them in order to further establish Oswald as politically maladjusted to the WC?

Just an aside DA.

Not informed in the area of the Oswald item inventory discovered in the Paine's garage.

However, I thought I saw one or two long tool handles sticking out of one of the barrels in some picture of the inside of the garage.

Having a barrel of some type to store long handled garden and other tools is a very common practice. I have often used one for my garden tools such as shovels, hoes, brooms, rakes, etc.

It is the best way to keep them together, out of the way and yet accessible when you need them.

Probably meaningless as many of my postings are...but well intentioned.

 

 

[Gene Kelly]

Paul

The Neely St. coincidence is pieced together from Jeff Carter's 2015 article in Kennedys and King  entitled "A New Look at the Enigma of the Backyard Photos" 

Gene

 

[James DiEugenio]

That 's interesting if true about Godfrey Rockefeller and Mike Paine.

The WWF was highly controversial.

So if Mike knew this guy and worked with him--Godfrey was very interested in helicopters--he and Ruth were associated with many of the major members of the Power Elite, except the Morgan empire. Reminds me of Allen Dulles securing that recommendation from his pals the Osborne family as to how upstanding the Paines were.  This was in December and not one witness had been called yet.

Edited July 18, 2020 by James DiEugenio

[Gene Kelly]

Jim/Paul:

The timeline that is laid out in early 1963 looks like the following: 

• Feb 13: Oswalds attend dinner party at the DeMorenschildt house
• Feb. 22: Oswalds attend dinner party at the home of Everett Glover (and meet the Paines)
• March 2: Oswalds move to 214 W. Neely St. 
• March 9-10: Someone takes photos of Walker house 
• March 11: Militant letter allegedly written by Lee (L. H.) 
• March 12: Ruth visits Marina at the Neely apartment; Lee allegedly orders rifle from Kleins (Marina is taken away from Apartment)
• March 20: Ruth makes her second trip to Neely St. - same day rifle and revolver are shipped -and Marina is taken away from the apartment
• March 25: Lee picks up the weapons 
• March 31: Someone takes the Backyard photos 
• April 2: Oswalds attend dinner party at the Paines home 
• April 10: somebody takes a shot at Edwin Walker 
• April 12: Lee files for unemployment 
• April 24: Ruth drives Lee to bus station (on way to New Orleans)

I became interested in the research and facts surrounding the Neely Street duplex four years ago, based on "Neely Street Mysteries" (2003, C. Wernerhoff) and previous Education Forum threads with Greg Parker and Ed leDoux (April 2011) entitled: "Neely St Questions".  What I concluded then was that Oswald's brief and questionable residency at 214 W. Neely Street (imprecisely recorded as somewhere between March-May) coincides with much of the evidence created to establish his legend as a radical, capable of violence. This is the pivotal period when he allegedly acquired a rifle and a pistol, posed with the weapons for the backyard photos, attempted to kill Walker, and even hinted at an attempt on the life of Nixon (shades of Arthur Bremer and George Wallace). Everything about the Neely duplex smells "fishy" and most of the "evidence" that Lee Oswald lived there comes from his wife (Marina), Ruth and Michael Paine, and George and Jeanne DeMohrenschildt. Oswald later told his interrogators in custody not once but twice that he had never lived there. In the words of Carl Wernerhoff:

 

"... when it was pointed out that certain friends of his had told police that they had visited him there, he assured the police that they were mistaken. The tendency to disassociate himself from Neely St. - at the cost of contradicting the statements of others - is a central mystery of the case".

 

A summary of  Greg's work includes the following facts and points: 

1. The owner of the Neely apartments was not called to give testimony, despite the importance of Oswald's stay at Neely St.. He is listed with three names: "M.W. George", "Waldo George" and "Jim George". He allegedly worked for an insurance company no longer in business. The mysterious owner - for reasons not given - claims to have padlocked the apartment after it was vacated in May. He also claimed some unknown party had been gaining access for unknown reasons in the months leading up to the assassination.
2. One of the pieces of evidence placing Oswald at Neely Street was a pay stub found at the same time as the bus transfer, which belonged to a former resident.  No rental records were obtained by any of the investigating authorities, and the electric and gas were inconsistent with true occupancy. 
3. The landlady, Mrs. Tobias, from the previous Elsbeth apartment was adamant that they moved themselves out (on March 3rd) using a stroller to transport their belongings... as opposed to the lady with the white station wagon who moved the couple into Neely.  The Oswalds move from Elsbeth with a stroller's worth of belongings and disappear into the ether ... except they must be close by because Mrs. Tobias spots Marina and even chats with her. Around this same time the Oswald's move from Elsbeth, another young couple are being moved into 214 Neely by a lady in a white station wagon. They both speak English, he is employed the whole time, they have two small kids and fight a lot. It appears that impostors stay at the apartment occasionally, as deemed necessary, and on May 1st they fake moving out.
4. George Mohrenschildt's son in law (Gary Taylor) had photography experience; his former wife Alexandra confirmed “he was working on and off with a photographer”. It's recorded that he was visiting Neely for a "friendly visit" and told Marina about his impending divorce (from Alexandra). Oswald used Gary Taylor’s address to take out the post office box where the infamous Mannlicher mail order weapon was allegedly sent ... that fact alone connects quite a number of 'dots'. 
5. After this infamous residency, no one else apparently rents or lives at Neely Street until after the assassination.  And when Lee returned from his fictitious visit to Mexico and shenanigans in New Orleans, why didn't he just resume living at Neely Street (with Marina)?
6. This is the only recorded time where Lee shows a militant and violent side ... he acquired a rifle and a pistol, posed with the weapons for the backyard photos, attempted to kill Walker, threatened to shoot Nixon. He is portrayed as essentially a pacifist before and after Neely.  
7. Marina Prusakova is historically portrayed as an innocent in all of this. But suspicions abound that she spoke much better English than she let on (e.g. with Robert Webster in Leningrad). And John Armstrong has pointed out, Marina's cooperation with the government and her ability to supply evidence at the most opportune times is noticeable and quite obvious. This would throw another variable into the Neely Street equation.
8. At the end, Oswald himself (in custody) vigorously denied ever living there - despite such residency having little bearing on the authenticity of the backyard photos 
9. Ultimately, all we have to go upon is the word of the Paines and the de Mohrenschildt’s, and some second-hand interviews of the mysterious M. Waldo George. ... but no objective and solid records. If the Oswalds really didn't live there, then where were they living?

My conclusion then (and now) is that Neely Street was an arranged safe house, where all of the damning evidence was put into play. The game strategy was to keep Lee and Marina separate from each other, to better set the intricate web being created.  A few cameo appearances at Neely, and some impostors to complete the picture. Such a manufactured legend would be entirely consistent with all of the other bogus bread crumbs being laid onto the trail at this pivotal period ... the evidence and witnesses being carefully managed on the ground.  And the Paines were complicit in these schemes. 

Gene

 

 

 

 

[Gene Kelly]

Kirk

My response to your question would be that Vincent Salandria was less interested in the Paines complicity/guilt, and more in who they pointed towards.   I don't think he is giving them a free pass in the crime, but he is inferring that they could've been unwitting (i. e. a "need to know" status), where the end game and actual details may not have been understood a priori by them.  So, in that sense, they were manipulated and used.  He was also making a plea for them - as virtuous people - to come clean (a posteriori) and admit there was something fishy going on, and that they were complicit in the President's murder.  He tried a similar tactic with Arlen Spector, but to no avail.   In that sense, he does give them the benefit of the doubt.   I would not be so kind or generous ... it seems that the Paines knew who was manipulating them (and why), and also knew the repercussions of becoming whistle-blowers. 

There are simply way too many coincidences to absolve them in any sense ...

Gene

[Joe Bauer]

Gene, do you believe in the "we both know who's responsible" Ruth to Michael Paine telephone call conversation story?

If not, nothing to ask here.

But if you do, what significance, if any, would you give this alleged statement?

[Jeff Carter]

hi Gene - 

just to add to the Neely Street breadcrumbs: there is CE404 in which Marina draws a map to the apartment for Ruth Paine, and there are two photos of young June Oswald on the balcony, which I suspect may have been taken by Gary Taylor.

Also, as Greg Parker initially discovered, the downstairs neighbours were actually located and subjected to a brief interview and describe the Oswalds living above. 

[Ron Bulman]

11 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

Jim/Paul:

The timeline that is laid out in early 1963 looks like the following: 

• Feb 13: Oswalds attend dinner party at the DeMorenschildt house
• Feb. 22: Oswalds attend dinner party at the home of Everett Glover (and meet the Paines)
• March 2: Oswalds move to 214 W. Neely St. 
• March 9-10: Someone takes photos of Walker house 
• March 11: Militant letter allegedly written by Lee (L. H.) 
• March 12: Ruth visits Marina at the Neely apartment; Lee allegedly orders rifle from Kleins (Marina is taken away from Apartment)
• March 20: Ruth makes her second trip to Neely St. - same day rifle and revolver are shipped -and Marina is taken away from the apartment
• March 25: Lee picks up the weapons 
• March 31: Someone takes the Backyard photos 
• April 2: Oswalds attend dinner party at the Paines home 
• April 10: somebody takes a shot at Edwin Walker 
• April 12: Lee files for unemployment 
• April 24: Ruth drives Lee to bus station (on way to New Orleans)

I became interested in the research and facts surrounding the Neely Street duplex four years ago, based on "Neely Street Mysteries" (2003, C. Wernerhoff) and previous Education Forum threads with Greg Parker and Ed leDoux (April 2011) entitled: "Neely St Questions".  What I concluded then was that Oswald's brief and questionable residency at 214 W. Neely Street (imprecisely recorded as somewhere between March-May) coincides with much of the evidence created to establish his legend as a radical, capable of violence. This is the pivotal period when he allegedly acquired a rifle and a pistol, posed with the weapons for the backyard photos, attempted to kill Walker, and even hinted at an attempt on the life of Nixon (shades of Arthur Bremer and George Wallace). Everything about the Neely duplex smells "fishy" and most of the "evidence" that Lee Oswald lived there comes from his wife (Marina), Ruth and Michael Paine, and George and Jeanne DeMohrenschildt. Oswald later told his interrogators in custody not once but twice that he had never lived there. In the words of Carl Wernerhoff:

 

"... when it was pointed out that certain friends of his had told police that they had visited him there, he assured the police that they were mistaken. The tendency to disassociate himself from Neely St. - at the cost of contradicting the statements of others - is a central mystery of the case".

 

A summary of  Greg's work includes the following facts and points: 

1. The owner of the Neely apartments was not called to give testimony, despite the importance of Oswald's stay at Neely St.. He is listed with three names: "M.W. George", "Waldo George" and "Jim George". He allegedly worked for an insurance company no longer in business. The mysterious owner - for reasons not given - claims to have padlocked the apartment after it was vacated in May. He also claimed some unknown party had been gaining access for unknown reasons in the months leading up to the assassination.
2. One of the pieces of evidence placing Oswald at Neely Street was a pay stub found at the same time as the bus transfer, which belonged to a former resident.  No rental records were obtained by any of the investigating authorities, and the electric and gas were inconsistent with true occupancy. 
3. The landlady, Mrs. Tobias, from the previous Elsbeth apartment was adamant that they moved themselves out (on March 3rd) using a stroller to transport their belongings... as opposed to the lady with the white station wagon who moved the couple into Neely.  The Oswalds move from Elsbeth with a stroller's worth of belongings and disappear into the ether ... except they must be close by because Mrs. Tobias spots Marina and even chats with her. Around this same time the Oswald's move from Elsbeth, another young couple are being moved into 214 Neely by a lady in a white station wagon. They both speak English, he is employed the whole time, they have two small kids and fight a lot. It appears that impostors stay at the apartment occasionally, as deemed necessary, and on May 1st they fake moving out.
4. George Mohrenschildt's son in law (Gary Taylor) had photography experience; his former wife Alexandra confirmed “he was working on and off with a photographer”. It's recorded that he was visiting Neely for a "friendly visit" and told Marina about his impending divorce (from Alexandra). Oswald used Gary Taylor’s address to take out the post office box where the infamous Mannlicher mail order weapon was allegedly sent ... that fact alone connects quite a number of 'dots'. 
5. After this infamous residency, no one else apparently rents or lives at Neely Street until after the assassination.  And when Lee returned from his fictitious visit to Mexico and shenanigans in New Orleans, why didn't he just resume living at Neely Street (with Marina)?
6. This is the only recorded time where Lee shows a militant and violent side ... he acquired a rifle and a pistol, posed with the weapons for the backyard photos, attempted to kill Walker, threatened to shoot Nixon. He is portrayed as essentially a pacifist before and after Neely.  
7. Marina Prusakova is historically portrayed as an innocent in all of this. But suspicions abound that she spoke much better English than she let on (e.g. with Robert Webster in Leningrad). And John Armstrong has pointed out, Marina's cooperation with the government and her ability to supply evidence at the most opportune times is noticeable and quite obvious. This would throw another variable into the Neely Street equation.
8. At the end, Oswald himself (in custody) vigorously denied ever living there - despite such residency having little bearing on the authenticity of the backyard photos 
9. Ultimately, all we have to go upon is the word of the Paines and the de Mohrenschildt’s, and some second-hand interviews of the mysterious M. Waldo George. ... but no objective and solid records. If the Oswalds really didn't live there, then where were they living?

My conclusion then (and now) is that Neely Street was an arranged safe house, where all of the damning evidence was put into play. The game strategy was to keep Lee and Marina separate from each other, to better set the intricate web being created.  A few cameo appearances at Neely, and some impostors to complete the picture. Such a manufactured legend would be entirely consistent with all of the other bogus bread crumbs being laid onto the trail at this pivotal period ... the evidence and witnesses being carefully managed on the ground.  And the Paines were complicit in these schemes. 

Gene

 

 

 

 

I'm not Jim or Paul but outta the ball park Gene.  Excellent imho.  # 4 in Particular.  The key in it all it seems to me is Oswald never picking up either weapon.  I don't think the Paine's were knowingly complicit in the end result of their actions.  They were used but didn't know fully how or why, still they were complicit  in them. 

[James DiEugenio]

Gene:

Interesting detail, actually two of them. Hopefully you can reply in some way.

First, are you saying the Oswald moved from Elsbeth to Neely in two ways, that is by baby stroller, and someone helped by car, a white station wagon? 

Second, a  good question is, when Oswald took out the P O Box 2915, on the application and the form, why did he put down Gary Taylor's address and not Neely?  Was this supposed to be some kind of reference? Or was it where he was living at the time?

[James DiEugenio]

In looking at the actual postal form, not the application, Oswald put down the Fairmont address as where he was living at the time he rented the box.

Why would he do that if he was living at Neely? And he was this close to Gary Taylor that he knew his address?  Had Oswald been at his home? 

[Gene Kelly]

Jim

I'm not sure anyone can ever answer those questions.   All I can say (based on the work done by Ed LeDoux, Greg Parker and others) is that something seems fishy about the West Neely address.   If I were to speculate, I'd say that Gary Taylor 'ordered the weapons.  And that Marina actively helped in the setup of Lee (a priori).  Here are some interesting tidbits:

• October 1962: Marina and June move in with Gary and Alexandra Taylor (de Mohrenschildt’s daughter) at 3519 Fairmont (Apt #12), Dallas, for 4 days. 

 

• Gary Taylor, the estranged son-in-law, testified before the Warren Commission. He stated that he came by the Neely apartment one afternoon, when Lee was at work:

Mr. JENNER. Why did you go there?  TAYLOR. Just for a friendly visit. Marina was at home. She – her English had improved enough for her to get across to me a few ideas ... I did inform Marina of my impending divorce and – uh – in other words, telling her that Mrs. Taylor and I were no longer living together and we had separated.”  

• Oswald used Gary Taylor’s address to take out a post office box where the infamous Mannlicher rifle was sent.  At the end of his WC questioning, Taylor was asked if he had any further comments that might help the Commission: 

"Well," he said, "the only thing that occurred to me was that -- uh -- and I guess it was from the beginning -- that if there was any assistance or plotters in the assassination that it was, in my opinion, most probably the DeMohrenschildt’s."    

Gene

[Gene Kelly]

And others (e.g. Steve Thomas)  believe that it was Marina who ordered the rifle.  Joachim Joesten's "Marina Oswald"  speculates about Marina's complicity in setting up Lee.  Some relive that the signatures on the rifle order are Marina's.  As Steve Thomas pointed out,  Lee and Marina had only been married for 6 months when they took separate vacations in 1962 (and she returned to Russia, 600 miles away). 

Aint love grand?  

[Douglas Caddy]

Ruth Paine: Eyewitness to History

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL2isU-zS6w&fbclid=IwAR2DumZvVLbauOR9afldgwPih_XA50tpvQuZsXbRbgmuLy7Pxalf-SQLI_k