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And others (e.g. Steve Thomas)  believe that it was Marina who ordered the rifle.  Joachim Joesten's "Marina Oswald"  speculates about Marina's complicity in setting up Lee.  Some relive that the signatures on the rifle order are Marina's.  As Steve Thomas pointed out,  Lee and Marina had only been married for 6 months when they took separate vacations in 1962 (and she returned to Russia, 600 miles away). 

Aint love grand?  

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1 hour ago, Gene Kelly said:

And others (e.g. Steve Thomas)  believe that it was Marina who ordered the rifle.  Joachim Joesten's "Marina Oswald"  speculates about Marina's complicity in setting up Lee.  Some relive that the signatures on the rifle order are Marina's.  As Steve Thomas pointed out,  Lee and Marina had only been married for 6 months when they took separate vacations in 1962 (and she returned to Russia, 600 miles away). 

Aint love grand?  

I've wondered for quite some time how much love was involved in Lee and Marina's relationship.  There was obviously for at least a limited time a physical one for a year to two with to daughters born.  But I have to wonder if their romance might in part at least been contrived by others.  I.E. it's possible they might have been introduced to observe the actions of one another.  Maybe encouraged to develop the relationship?  He the young defector who slit his wrists to stay in the USSR, with likely ONI and CIA contacts.  She living with her uncle in the GRU, having spoken English to, dated (?) another US visitor.  And, I probably shouldn't post this without the source, but I remember reading once about her being sent to live with her uncle in Minsk as a result of unruly, maybe promiscuous behavior at a young age.

But I don't think I've read before about Steve thinking Marina might have ordered the rifle, or about her helping set him up.

After mentioning the USSR I can't resist.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=back+in+the+ussr&ru=%2fsearch%3fq%3dback%2bin%2bthe%2bussr%26form%3dPRUSEN%26mkt%3den-us%26httpsmsn%3d1%26msnews%3d1%26rec_search%3d1%26refig%3d1f3b0fb1effa42249b608022a2010e12%26sp%3d-1%26pq%3dback%2bin%2bthe%2bussr%26sc%3d10-16%26qs%3dn%26sk%3d%26cvid%3d1f3b0fb1effa42249b608022a2010e12&view=detail&mid=45140FDC523EAB9B079345140FDC523EAB9B0793&&FORM=VDRVRV

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See the September 8, 2014 blog of Gayle Nix Jackson entitled "The Georges of Neely Street" and the 2011 Forum thread "Neely Street Questions" which offer the following: 

  • An unidentified Secret Service agent personally interviewed an F.M. George, living at 6769 Inverness Lane, with regard to Oswald's rental of the Neely St. apartment (WC Hearings XIV: CE 2189, p. 8). On the basis of the information he gave the Secret Service investigator, F. M. was  the same individual as the M. Waldo George of the 1964 affidavit.  According to the Secret Service report, George showed the agent the rental receipts; however, they were apparently not handed over to the agent.
  • The owner of 214 Neely Street (the mysterious M. Waldo George) in his affidavit, goes on to say that George Brown Gray (living downstairs) complained that Oswald, in the apartment above him, was beating his wife ... but the only thing the owner does is call around to the apartment and invite the Oswald's to church with him and his wife. The owner, for reasons not given, claims to have padlocked the apartment after it was vacated in May. He further claimed some unknown party had been gaining access for unknown reasons in the months leading up to the assassination. In his statement he claims that Oswald didn't rent the property until April 1st and stayed there until May 31st. The owner is listed with three different names: "M.W. George", "W. Waldo George" and "Jim W. George".
  • Ed LeDoux contacted Clydie Gray, who was elderly and hard of hearing at the time. Mrs. Gray (who lived downstairs) said her husband George B. was a garbage man for the City of Dallas. She worked at Akers Department store, and George B. Gray worked for the city. She didn't remember the owner of the apartments, nor recall which church she was attending while at Neely.  They were never interviewed by the Warren Commission. She remembered the Oswalds living upstairs and remembers Marina walking the baby in front of the house. She said Marina spoke English, and that she saw Lee many times, but was not friendly with him. 
  • Albert Jenner encouraged Neely St. related testimony from Ruth Paine. Ruth met the Oswald family at a park near their Neely St. home on April 20th, and says she must have arranged the visit by communication by letter. She claims she is actually at their apartment on April 24th, and - since they are packed and waiting for her to pick them up - there must have been an advance arrangement, but she does not recall the details. The WC questioners were trying to establish that she could have seen a seabag containing an object 40 inches long. The Commissioners present seemed to be intentionally making the questioning as confusing as possible.  Ruth maintained her story that Marina would stay (with her daughter) indefinitely at the Neely St. apartment after Lee's departure, although all of their possessions had been packed and Lee took what he could carry. 
  • Greg Parker investigated the record of electrical services (and meter readings) at the Neely St. apartment. The service had been previously connected for a C.P. Cornett until January 16th, when Cornett advised by phone he was moving. The meter was read on February 19; at that time, the meter reader reported the premises as vacant. The meter was read again on March 20th and 36 kilowatt hours had been used. However, the meter reader once again reported the premises vacant. The next reading was on April 19th and reflected a usage of 66 kilowatt hours (the premises this time were reported as occupied). On April 24, a letter was sent to the address requesting the new occupant to make a deposit; no response was received.  On May 1st, a company representative paid a visit to the address and the letter sent on April 24 was seen still sitting in the letter box. A cut-off order was issued and the services were cut the next day.  The company representative advised he had made a hand-written note in a file on March 29, that 214 W Neely was occupied by Lee Harvey Oswald (he was unable to say where or how he got that information). Dallas Power & Light received no payment for electrical services at the apartment between January 16 and May 2 when it was cut.
  • Richard Gilbride pointed out (to Greg Parker) the fact that Ruth Paine's calendar had "Marina" written down on March 20, and that she testified that she went to visit Marina that day and could possibly have taken her back to Irving.  Thus when the meter reader came, the sparsely furnished apartment would appear vacant and the small amount of electricity used would be put down to the owner coming by to fix the place up.
  • None of the neighbors  recognized Oswald as having lived at that Neely address -  one couple interviewed (the Friddles) were certain the young couple who did live there for a short time in April-May had two children. Baby Rachel was not born until October of 1963, so whomever the Friddles spotted occasionally at 214 W. Neely, it could not have been the classic, intact "Oswald" family as we know it. Mr and Mrs Marvin Friddle were close neighbors and told the FBI that they didn't know Oswald, and for a short time during April and May, a young couple occupied the top apartment at 214 West Neely.
  • The only documented evidence of Lee's residence is a questionable pay stub found during a search of thew apartment after the assassination. The pay stub was found at the same time as the (planted) bus transfer and belonged to a former resident of 214 W. Neely., James A. Jackson, an employee of American Bakery Company.  Jackson had lived at 214 West Neely Street for about nine months, and thereafter moved until July 1963, when he and his wife separated. Jackson said he had no idea how Lee Harvey Oswald came into possession of a paycheck stub, which apparently belonged to him (he did not recall ever losing one).  No rental records were ever obtained by any of the investigating authorities.
  • 3519 Fairmount is the address of Gary Taylor who was married to George DeMohrenschildt's daughter ... the address appears nowhere in Oswald's official biography. Taylor denied Oswald ever lived with him. In addition to Oswald writing the 3519 Fairmount address on the back of his Leslie Welding checks, he also had the address listed on his Employee ID card at Jaggers Chiles Stovall. 
     
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Paul B. and Jim D.

To be clear about Point #6 from my Thursday post - regarding the coincidence of Ruth's visits to the apartment and milestone dates for the revolved and rifle - the source credit goes to Greg Parker.  In his April 11, 2011 thread on 'Neely Street Questions', he makes the following three key points: 

  1. March 12, 1963: Ruth Paine visits Marina at the new apartment. Also that day, LHO orders a rifle from Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago.
  2. March 20, 1963: Ruth Paine makes her second trip to visit Marina at the Neely St address. Also that day, the rifle and the revolver are shipped.
  3. Marina is taken away from the apartment on both occasions. 

Gene 

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14 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

But I don't think I've read before about Steve thinking Marina might have ordered the rifle, or about her helping set him up.

Ron,

I've run across some things that trouble me. They mainly revolve around six main areas. Remember that both the rifle order and the fake Selective Service card were in the name Hidell:

  1. Oswald admitted he had the Alek James Hidell Selective Service card, bur either “denied” or “declined to admit” that the signature was his.

  2. Marina admitted to signing the name “Hidell” to “two or three things” with the name “Hidell” that were not pamphlets.

  3. Marina said on at least four occasions that they were living on Neely St. in January, and initially, that she had seen Lee cleaning the rifle in January (which she later corrected to mean she saw it for the first time in March).

  4. The handwriting experts commissioned by the HSCA were not asked to analyze the signature on the Hidell Selective Service card, or to compare the signature on the rifle order form with the signature on the DeMohrenschildt rifle photo.

  5. The times when Lee Oswald used the Americainized versions of dating as opposed to when Marina used the Cryllic version of dating.

  6. The troubling instances of evidence in this case in Marina Oswald's possession appearing after they have been seized and searched by the Dallas Police.

I can give you the documentation for each, but my notes on this run to 20 pages or so.

Here's one example though relative to point number 3:

a) On February 17, 1964 Marina was interviewed by FBI Special Agents Anatole Boguslav and Wallace Heitman. In their writeup of that interview done on the 18th, they wrote:

She said further that in the beginning of January, 1963 at the Neely Street address, he, (Lee Harvey Oswald) was cleaning his rifle and he said he had been practicing that day.”

(page 443 of CD 735).

For whatever reason, this conflicts with the official record as we know it.. Supposedly the Oswalds moved from Elsbeth to Neely on March 3rd and according to the postal money order, the rifle wasn't ordered until March 12th.

CE 1404 - FBI reports dated February 22 and 25, 1964, of interviews with Marina Oswald (CD 735, pp. 446-453).

On February 18, 1964 she was again interviewed by Agents Boguslav and Heitman. She told the FBI that she was mistaken about the date, and that the rifle cleaning incident had taken place in March, 1963. The Agents wrote a Report of this interview on February 22, 1964.

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=815

(This is on page 446 of CD 735)

 

b) WC testimony of Marina Oswald February 3, 1964

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/oswald_m1.htm

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever observe your husband taking the rifle away from the apartment on Neely Street?
Mrs. OSWALD. Now, I think that he probably did sometimes, but I never did see it. You must understand that sometimes I would be in the kitchen and he would be in his room downstairs, and he would say bye-bye, I will be hack soon, and he may have taken it. He probably did. Perhaps he purely waited for an occasion when he could take it away without my seeing it.

However, on March 3, 1964 Marina told FBI Agents, Wallace Heitman and Anatoly Boguslav that not only had she seen Oswald take the rifle out of the apartment in March, 1963, but that she had gone with him!

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1139#relPageId=549&tab=page

image.png.1d1489ed013a010f3daa8d2454bef968.png

Steve Thomas

 

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The other aspect that Greg expertly surmised is that - according to evidence discussed on the "Ruth Paine's Calendar" EF thread - she forged and then mailed the Klein's envelope.  There are indications that she dropped it into a box in Postal Zone 12 (near Neely St.), just before her visit to Marina's apartment on March 12th.  The 5-foot carton was shipped on March 20th (a Wednesday) and probably didn't arrive in Dallas for another two days.  Greg further speculates that perhaps a Chicago postal informant alerted Harry Holmes in Dallas that the Hidell rifle was on its way (or even Ruth directly) ... and Holmes' subsequent contact to Ruth may have compelled her to pay a visit to Marina that day.   

214WestNeely.png

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On 7/18/2017 at 7:32 PM, Ron Bulman said:

Thank you for posting this.  Asking to take a picture of the file cabinet might have been pushing your luck.  Great stuff.  Best of luck with the film.  I'd love to contribute but to be perfectly honest still live pretty much paycheck to paycheck as the hope of retirement nears.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1174121219/the-assassin-and-mrs-paine

Six or seven of something like this per Deputy Sherriff Walthers in his report on 11/22/63 and again in 1964 in his Warren Hearing testimony.

 https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=86VvULs2&id=5709D30A6261D7A98BD14D988AD06EDA2D2801FA&thid=OIP.86VvULs2XrsXdAjr0ipd2gEsDH&q=retro+portable+file+cabinet&simid=608011824182593945&selectedIndex=13&qpvt=retro+portable+file+cabinet&ajaxhist=0

And if they are not the Paines then I guess Ruth hauled them back from New Orleans?  Strange, Michael only remembers unloading duffel bags in his WC testimony.  Ruth tends to laugh off a lot of questions from reporters over the years (in a disarming fashion) that a perssistent attorney would have pressed and grilled her on. 

I'm surprised the (second) link still works.  If a picture is worth a thousand words...  Michael tried to imply these belonged to Oswald because of the information in them.  Once again, if they were Ozzie's how did he transport them and smuggle them into the Paine's garage?  I believe Ruth said Lee claimed to have taken a bus from New Orleans to Dallas.  Quite a bit of baggage.

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Here is one of the original file cabinets.  It is in the possession of a collector in California who got it from Ruth in the last few years.  Note that it is labeled as CE 458 and CE 457-458 are footnoted with "These numbers were not used." in WC volume XVII.  https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=7&tab=page

 

CE_458b.jpg

CE_458a.jpg

Edited by Max Good
added explanation
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Quote by Marina above.

"You must understand that sometimes I would be in the kitchen and he would be in his room downstairs, and he would say bye-bye, I will be hack soon, and he may have taken it."

How could Oswald have a "room downstairs' when he lived in the flat above?

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Ray, did Marina and Lee ever rent a place that had an upstairs "and" downstairs?

Also, if they rented an upstairs apartment, could Marina have meant that Lee went down the stairs and said "bye, bye" on his way out for whatever reason?

With Marina's imperfect English skills one could expect some mistaken interpretations of meaning.

Question for all:

So much has been said about Marina Oswald's English speaking and comprehension skills going all the way back to her time in Russia and even a side story of a reported relationship with another young American defector Robert Webster?

We have all seen Marina's first nationally broadcast television interview just a few months after 11,22,1963.  This was produced by KRLD TV in Dallas.

In this interview, it seemed to me that Marina understood every question presented to her in English, albeit hesitating for several seconds after many of them to work them out in her head and then try to answer them in English as coherently as she could.

In my opinion, Marina's English speaking and comprehension skills in this interview were fairly good for someone who supposedly hadn't taken any formal classes ever. Perhaps Ruth Paine was her teacher in this way and after a few months of living with her, improved her skills to a decent conversational level.

My question is:

Were Marina's English speaking and understanding skills in this early 1964 interview indicative that she had a better grasp of our language than many reported she did not?

For anyone familiar with Russians learning English, does Marina sound as if she has been speaking some English for years versus part time after her arriving here in the states with Lee a little more than one and one half years earlier?

I have met and even lived next door to a few native born Russians here in my life time of living near the Monterey Language institute. These Russians were connected to the school in some way.

Funny, they spoke English, but they all still had that heavy Russian accent and often spoke in their different sentence structure way, no matter how long they lived here, even for decades.

It was like hearing movie characters who were supposed to be Russian but who spoke English with that same typical accent we expect in the movies. Like James Bond film Russian characters in the film "Golden Eye?

So, does 22 year old Marina in this interview sound like someone who has spoken at least some English for longer than a year and a half here in the states?

 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Joe Bauer
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19 hours ago, Max Good said:

Here is one of the original file cabinets.  It is in the possession of a collector in California who got it from Ruth in the last few years.  Note that it is labeled as CE 458 and CE 457-458 are footnoted with "These numbers were not used." in WC volume XVII.  https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=7&tab=page

 

CE_458b.jpg

CE_458a.jpg

This should be in the Smithsonian, with the Deputy Sheriff's report on a stand beside it.

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15 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Gene and Steve, since you both say that Lee and Marina did stay at Neely for  a short period of time, what do you make of that stay?

What was it all about?  Or am I wrong.  Do you not think they actually stayed there?

But if so, why was Ruth Paine so involved with Neely?

Jim,

Marguerite said that Lee never lived there. Marina was staying there with some German guy.

I have no idea what to make of that.

Hosty told the WC that after learning the Oswalds had left Elsbeth St, he went to Neely and confirmed the Oswalds were living there by reading both their names on the mailbox.

"I believe her name was Mrs. Tobias, that she had just evicted Lee and Marina Oswald from her apartment building because of their alleged fighting and his alleged drinking. They caused a disturbance and she had asked him to leave on March 3, 1963. She told me they had moved a short distance away. She didn't know where. On that same date, I was able to determine from the postal authorities that they had changed their address to 214 Neely Street, also in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas.
On the 14th of March, I verified that Oswalds were residing at this address when I found the mailbox with the name of Lee and Marina Oswald at this address, 214 Neely Street."

Steve Thomas

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