The Beckley Bunch

[Larry Hancock]

I know I'm sounding dense David but all the discussion I have heard over the years had been with the issue of Oswald receiving a rifle from Postal service and the handling of paper work for that, missing documents etc.  I don't recall REA ever even being mentioned in those discussions.  If was all about receiving the weapons at the Post Office and Post Office protocols.

I can tell you that REA was not just another option as it is now...there were postal restrictions on both size and weight.  Beyond a certain size and weight it had to go REA.....

You have all this worked out for yourself I'm sure, just trying to follow along step by step and match it to other discussions over the years.  I guess I just need to read your article again rather than trying to follow on in a complex discussion via separate posts on threads  that is always challenging for me.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 29, 2020 by Larry Hancock

[Steve Roe]

1 hour ago, Larry Hancock said:

Not trying to be confusing but this is making me think about something new.  What were the shipping guidelines - weight and size which required something to go by REA? 

What I was trying to get out was that when we received packages shipped vea REA, we were notified by mail with a notice sent via the post office - but we had to pick up the package at the REA office...and if shipping or other charges were due that was handled at the REA office as well, not the Post Office.  The only delivered the notice, as a piece of regular mail.

How does this fit with both the pistol and rifle in Owalds case....I've been away from these sorts of details for a very long time.

Also, talk about wear, looks like somebody was using the butt of that pistol as a hammer...how old is that thing..

Larry it’s WWII vintage. Smith/Wesson Victory 0.38. It was sent to Britain and reimported back to the States. Hence the worn look. 
Also if you go to the National Archives and look at digital photos of that Revolver, you can see on one side of the barrel where it cut/snub nosed down. Exactly what Seaport Traders did. 

Edited February 29, 2020 by Steve Roe
Include additional comment for clarity.

[Larry Hancock]

So this is a used weapon then, not just war surplus of some sort?  Surplus stocks normally don't show wear and tear, possibly just some preservative but not actual wear based on those I've seen.

Good point on the barrel, I'll be interested in David's comment on that.

As long as I'm bouncing between posts...could I get your view on the shipment of the pistol and where it was picked  up e.g.  was it mailed via Post Office or via REA or a combination of both and where was it actually physically picked up.  Ditto for the rifle.

I realize its redundant but maybe there is someone lurking who will find that useful as well as myself.

 

 

[Steve Roe]

1 hour ago, Larry Hancock said:

So this is a used weapon then, not just war surplus of some sort?  Surplus stocks normally don't show wear and tear, possibly just some preservative but not actual wear based on those I've seen.

Good point on the barrel, I'll be interested in David's comment on that.

As long as I'm bouncing between posts...could I get your view on the shipment of the pistol and where it was picked  up e.g.  was it mailed via Post Office or via REA or a combination of both and where was it actually physically picked up.  Ditto for the rifle.

I realize its redundant but maybe there is someone lurking who will find that useful as well as myself.

 

 

Sure Larry, if you allow me to answer you tomorrow in greater detail, it would be appreciated. But quickly, In a sense that revolver was WWII surplus. There’s no telling whether it remained in England on the home front or was issued to a British service member in Europe or elsewhere in WWII. Apparently it did get a fair amount of wear. 

[Dan Troyer]

9 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Bentley says simply that after giving the pistol to HILL he then initials the pistol as HILL gives it to Lt Baker and Fritz....

We must remember that no one initials this pistol until AFTER it is at the DPD for some time....

Try this version Bart.... shows more of the underside where HILL claims to have etched his initials... and a large version from the 23rd when initials SHOULD be there

 

  Thank you Bart and David for all the great information you both post.

  Either these 2 pics are of a different gun, or it has been totally taken apart in between. None of the slots in the slotted screws are in the same position, in both pictures.  And it may be the angle view of the second pic, but the machined surfaces are machined in a different radius, probably when the barrel was installed.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Steve Roe said:

Bart, enough of the demeaning comments, Ok?

If you actually read my post it says “the page before where I posted it”. 

And of course you are going to deny the serial numbers. The FBI sent an agent to LA and verified the serial numbers off Rose/Seaport records. 
 

Do you want that document? Or does Uncle Malcom have it? 
 
You do see “PB” right? Will at least acknowledge that? Or do you want to continue your insults? 
 

Your choice. 

Demeaning comments? You are an expert at this yourself Steve, do not try to create that fake impression of you being the victim here. We all know that this is not the case. You are a champion denier.

The serial on the bill of sale is nothing short of a joke and was added after, simples. Bringing Gus Rose, one of the most suspicious characters in this case into this is not helping either, it actually hurts your argument. He himself is even one of the sources that Oswald told him the gun was tossed at him, confirmed by Applin in his meet with Earl Golz. Forgotten about that? A few pages back .

Bring up that document by Rose, uncle Malcolm doesn't do requests, he is no jukebox.

 

 

[Steve Thomas]

9 hours ago, Dan Troyer said:

  Thank you Bart and David for all the great information you both post.

  Either these 2 pics are of a different gun, or it has been totally taken apart in between. None of the slots in the slotted screws are in the same position, in both pictures.  And it may be the angle view of the second pic, but the machined surfaces are machined in a different radius, probably when the barrel was installed.

Dan,

Thanks,

I noticed that too right off the bat. Due to the absence of screwdriver marks on the screw heads, I'd say these are two different guns.

 

Steve Thomas

[Paul Bacon]

When screws are tightened fully, the screw heads will always lie in the same position no matter how many times the pieces are re-assembled if the same screws were used for re-assembling.  I'd say these are two different guns.

Late edit:  I just realized that if the same screws were used, but were put in different holes, that could account for the differences we see.  So the best that can be said is that the gun was disassembled between photos.

Edited February 29, 2020 by Paul Bacon
second thought

[David Josephs]

2 paths for 2 different pistols....   never noticed the screws, great catch and thanks for helping prove my paper...

but compare to the CE of the pistol, the screws look the same.... besides, FBI took all evidence, what’s he doing with it?

How many snub nosed .38 Specials do you suppose were at DPD? .38 ammo too?

...and these come out of a box... 

[Steve Roe]

On 2/28/2020 at 7:04 PM, Larry Hancock said:

So this is a used weapon then, not just war surplus of some sort?  Surplus stocks normally don't show wear and tear, possibly just some preservative but not actual wear based on those I've seen.

Good point on the barrel, I'll be interested in David's comment on that.

As long as I'm bouncing between posts...could I get your view on the shipment of the pistol and where it was picked  up e.g.  was it mailed via Post Office or via REA or a combination of both and where was it actually physically picked up.  Ditto for the rifle.

I realize its redundant but maybe there is someone lurking who will find that useful as well as myself.

 

 

Larry, as per your request, today I will address the Victory Model Smith-Wesson 0.38 revolver.

First point of interest was how did they find where the gun was sold? Of course, had Oswald went to trial and denied he owned that revolver, then an effort would have been made by his defense attorneys to establish rightful ownership. That's why I do not subscribe to the "Planted Gun at the Texas Theater" scenario. 

In the provided link here from the Mary Ferrell site, you can see where the FBI began to canvas known gun shops examining sales records for the Serial Number V-510210. It eventually led to Dave's House of Guns on Elm Street in Dallas, I believe associated with the Honest Joe's Pawnshop (the Goldsteins).  You can scroll through the pages here. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57689&search="Railway_Express"#relPageId=32&tab=page

Goldstein advised the gun "may" have been sold by George Rose, aka Seaport Traders in Los Angeles, CA. A local LA FBI agent was dispatched to the George Rose Company which was located in the downtown area of Los Angeles. There the sales records were searched and it was determined that a shipment ordered by the George Rose Company did include the Serial Number V-510210.  You can view that document here https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57689&search="Railway_Express"#relPageId=38&tab=page 

Note the serial number match. 

The actual order clipping was also recovered with Oswald's PO Box 2915, under the alias of AJ Hidell (see attached photo).

As per the documents, Seaport Traders shipped the revolver via Railway Express to Dallas. The Railway Express terminal was located just south of Dealey Plaza at the Dallas Union Railroad Station (see attached photo).

The date of when Oswald actually mailed in the Seaport Traders order slip is unknown. However Oswald did write January 27. The pistol was shipped in March 1963. 

Larry if you recall the Eddie Barker document showing how he and KRLD set up a fictitious PO Box with a name similar to "Hidell", they ordered at least two guns via Railway Express. So no doubt a notice from REA (Railway Express) would have been in the PO Box and presented to the REA clerk for pick up. And that was in 1968, 5 years after the assassination. Obviously mail order gun sales were still going on unchecked. 

As a side note, REA was also used by the FBI to ship weapons, ammo under investigation. There are numerous entries where they used them on the Mary Ferrell site. 

All of this took place way before the assassination, back in Spring of 1963, where Oswald was working for Jagger-Chiles-Stovall on Browder street, which was only 0.7 mile away from the REA terminal. 

If you click on this photo of the revolver, and blow it up, look on the barrel. You can make out the remnants of "Wesson". The original revolver barrel was originally a 5" long barrel which was cut down to snub-nose it. Exactly what Seaport Traders did as per the documents and per WC testimony.

  

 

 

 

Edited May 10, 2021 by Steve Roe
Forgot to include a photo

[Steve Roe]

10 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Demeaning comments? You are an expert at this yourself Steve, do not try to create that fake impression of you being the victim here. We all know that this is not the case. You are a champion denier.

The serial on the bill of sale is nothing short of a joke and was added after, simples. Bringing Gus Rose, one of the most suspicious characters in this case into this is not helping either, it actually hurts your argument. He himself is even one of the sources that Oswald told him the gun was tossed at him, confirmed by Applin in his meet with Earl Golz. Forgotten about that? A few pages back .

Bring up that document by Rose, uncle Malcolm doesn't do requests, he is no jukebox.

 

 

No, I haven't forgot about George Applin Jr. and Earl Golz. 

Source: Dallas Morning News, Earl Golz, March 11, 1979. 

How do you explain this? 

Same Earl Golz, same George Applin Jr. 

 

Edited February 29, 2020 by Steve Roe

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, Steve Roe said:

No, I haven't forgot about George Applin Jr. and Earl Golz. 

Source: Dallas Morning News, Earl Golz, March 11, 1979. 

How do you explain this? 

Same Earl Golz, same George Applin Jr. 

I cannot as the pic is so small it resembles a larger thumbnail....

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Steve Roe said:

Larry, as per your request, today I will address the Victory Model Smith-Wesson 0.38 revolver.

First point of interest was how did they find where the gun was sold? Of course, had Oswald went to trial and denied he owned that revolver, then an effort would have been made by his defense attorneys to establish rightful ownership. That's why I do not subscribe to the "Planted Gun at the Texas Theater" scenario. 

In the provided link here from the Mary Ferrell site, you can see where the FBI began to canvas known gun shops examining sales records for the Serial Number V-510210. It eventually led to Dave's House of Guns on Elm Street in Dallas, I believe associated with the Honest Joe's Pawnshop (the Goldsteins).  You can scroll through the pages here. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57689&search="Railway_Express"#relPageId=32&tab=page

Goldstein advised the gun "may" have been sold by George Rose, aka Seaport Traders in Los Angeles, CA. A local LA FBI agent was dispatched to the George Rose Company which was located in the downtown area of Los Angeles. There the sales records were searched and it was determined that a shipment ordered by the George Rose Company did include the Serial Number V-510210.  You can view that document here https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57689&search="Railway_Express"#relPageId=38&tab=page 

Note the serial number match. 

The actual order clipping was also recovered with Oswald's PO Box 2915, under the alias of AJ Hidell (see attached photo).

As per the documents, Seaport Traders shipped the revolver via Railway Express to Dallas. The Railway Express terminal was located just south of Dealey Plaza at the Dallas Union Railroad Station (see attached photo).

The date of when Oswald actually mailed in the Seaport Traders order slip is unknown. However Oswald did write January 27. The pistol was shipped in March 1963. 

Larry if you recall the Eddie Barker document showing how he and KRLD set up a fictitious PO Box with a name similar to "Hidell", they ordered at least two guns via Railway Express. So no doubt a notice from REA (Railway Express) would have been in the PO Box and presented to the REA clerk for pick up. And that was in 1968, 5 years after the assassination. Obviously mail order gun sales were still going on unchecked. 

As a side note, REA was also used by the FBI to ship weapons, ammo under investigation. There are numerous entries where they used them on the Mary Ferrell site. 

All of this took place way before the assassination, back in Spring of 1963, where Oswald was working for Jagger-Chiles-Stovall on Browder street, which was only 0.7 mile away from the REA terminal. 

If you click on this photo of the revolver, and blow it up, look on the barrel. You can make out the remnants of "Wesson". The original revolver barrel was originally a 5" long barrel which was cut down to snub-nose it. Exactly what Seaport Traders did as per the documents and per WC testimony.

  

 

 

 

Same story, these pix are too small to be able to read anything

[Larry Hancock]

Just for reference - for anyone else catching up on this as I am:

WC exhibits with REA paperwork

https://books.google.com/books?id=2Gx3AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA174&lpg=PA174&dq=seaport+traders+inc&source=bl&ots=Nksb2KG38P&sig=ACfU3U2NtlD4o2W8ntYvEVihYG6lMWJVQw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiU7pD-xPfnAhVEHqwKHdXAAg4Q6AEwBnoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=seaport traders inc&f=false

 

[Steve Roe]

2 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

I cannot as the pic is so small it resembles a larger thumbnail....

Sorry Bart, I reached my maximum allowable space. Will have to delete some images and repost to it will appear larger.